ma44 guncrafting

[onleavedontatme]

The ideal scenario for guncrafting is that it lets people build guns that fill different combat niches but aren't strictly better than each other in every situation.

We already have a variety of different guns to fill different niches.

If gun crafting was balanced it'd just be redundant and recreate our current system for no reason. It likely won't be redundant though, and overpowered instead, since it took us 6 years to get to our current gun balance and its still not perfect.

Please stop using your time on this, I wish I'd been able to realize or articulate this earlier.

[Luke Cox]

We have a solid foundation to build on. Most of the work is going to be balancing it all. Charge and rate of fire are the best means of mitigating powerful upgrades, so those two things should have few to no upgrades.

[DemonFiren]

Congratulations, you're voicing everyone's fears.

Watch as they are ignored, anyway.

[Luke Cox]

In respect to guncrafting being "redundant", I'd argue that having a bunch of different guns for different scenarios is actually very clunky and inefficient when we could simply have one universal guncrafting system. It's also much more satisfying to build your preferred gun from scratch than to go grab the one you want from the armory.

In other words, F U N

[danno]

kor is unfortunately right

[captain sawrge]

In respect to guncrafting being "redundant", I'd argue that having a bunch of different guns for different scenarios is actually very clunky and inefficient when we could simply have one universal guncrafting system. It's also much more satisfying to build your preferred gun from scratch than to go grab the one you want from the armory.

In other words, F U N

It's supposed to be clunky and inefficient.
Our balance is pretty poor as it is and the game's combat basically revolves entirely around guns. Forcing there to be at least a little thought and adaption to different situations helps that out a little.

[ShadowDimentio]

I want to build a gun that fits how I like to play and have FUN.

[PKPenguin321]

The ideal scenario for guncrafting is that it lets people build guns that fill different combat niches but aren't strictly better than each other in every situation.

We already have a variety of different guns to fill different niches.

If gun crafting was balanced it'd just be redundant and recreate our current system for no reason. It likely won't be redundant though, and overpowered instead, since it took us 6 years to get to our current gun balance and its still not perfect.

Please stop using your time on this, I wish I'd been able to realize or articulate this earlier.

!!!

[John_Oxford]

"the game isn't perfectly balanced"

congrats you just completely destroyed your own argument without me having to say a word.

"you arent allowed to have fun your way thats not allowed you have fun my way"

kor your dumb and should feel dumb.

[ShadowDimentio]

Guncrafting would add a whole new layer to being robust. With enough parts there would be a huge sprawl of different gun combinations, and with it you could build a gun that strongly specialized in range/damage/accuracy/fire rate or whatever, or you could build a gun with some of each. There'd certainly be some art and preference in play, but that'd just add to the FUN.

[captain sawrge]

Guncrafting would add a whole new layer to being robust. With enough parts there would be a huge sprawl of different gun combinations, and with it you could build a gun that strongly specialized in range/damage/accuracy/fire rate or whatever, or you could build a gun with some of each. There'd certainly be some art and preference in play, but that'd just add to the FUN.

Guns are already really robust without even more damage or huge capacities that negate their main flaw.
I don't really see any way modifications could do anything except throw off the current balance and shake up everything else balanced with what we currently have in mind.

Fucking up balance isn't fun. Having overpowered nonsense just for the sake of it is actually just really fucking stupid and bad for 99% of the people involved. It's shitty to deal with it in-game, it's shitty for admins having to deal with people fucking around with broken nonsense, and it's shitty for coders to try and work with. It promotes more awful power creep shit and generally detracts from the game.

It's sort of a neat idea but it really doesn't fit at all.

[Sweaterkittens]

Fucking up balance isn't fun. Having overpowered nonsense just for the sake of it is actually just really fucking stupid and bad for 99% of the people involved. It's shitty to deal with it in-game, it's shitty for admins having to deal with people fucking around with broken nonsense, and it's shitty for coders to try and work with. It promotes more awful power creep shit and generally detracts from the game.

This does a great job of putting words to my sentiments when people say "The game is hard to/can't be balanced". Yes, due to the nature of SS13 it's a rough game to balance and it'll never be perfect. This is not Esports and it doesn't have to be perfect. But that being said, having wildly unbalanced stuff simply because "it's already unbalanced" is really, really not fun.

[Luke Cox]

Could someone copy/paste a list of the guncrafting components for me? I think you people are making this ten times more difficult than it needs to be.

[ChangelingRain]

There ARE interesting things you can do with guncrafting, but if it's just damage(which either silly and way too strong or nearly worthless; all that matters is how fast the guy dies, and if you have a flat bonus to murder.....), range(which is nearly unnoticeable unless it's very short???), accuracy(which is, um, literally already 100%, unless you mean with spread weapons, which is idiotic because see damage), fire rate(hello welcome to damage redux I'm not even going to say it again), guess what it results in? That's right, a Flat Murder Bonus if you assemble a gun in a specific way.

Interesting guncrafting things would be, like, projectiles that, on hitting a target, firing another shot in a random direction from the target, projectiles that actually ricochet off of solid objects, a 'spread' modifier that just makes the weapon fire X more shots in a spread but divides all of those shot's damage by X, and other things that are not literally Flat Murder Bonuses.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Guncrafting fucking sucks tell me when we get a blacksmith job so I can forge my own plasteel billhook and razor sharp diamond boomerang

[ShadowDimentio]

So instead of buffing stats you tape a weird gimmick onto a gun

Unless the gimmick is /REALLY/ good, I fail to see why anyone would choose that over buffing stats.

[captain sawrge]

So instead of buffing stats you tape a weird gimmick onto a gun

Unless the gimmick is /REALLY/ good, I fail to see why anyone would choose that over buffing stats.

You are fucking with me right now.

[ChangelingRain]

So instead of buffing stats you tape a weird gimmick onto a gun

Unless the gimmick is /REALLY/ good, I fail to see why anyone would choose that over buffing stats.

Because buffing stats results in abominations. Gimmicks are easier to balance with compared to slapping on damage bonuses, and gimmicks don't care about what tier of amazing research part you jam in.
Like, you know, I just said/implied.

[ShadowDimentio]

>Gimmicks are easier to balance than buffing stats

X [Doubt]

[captain sawrge]

The easiest way to balance buffing stats is not to do it, so I suppose technically you are correct.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Dimentio be smarter than you are

[Sweaterkittens]

You're not listening, Shadow.

Joan is saying that, despite the fact that firerate/damage/accuracy/etc are all good gun mechanics in most games, they do not make good stats to fiddle with in SS13. The way that gunplay works for us, there's very little give and take. In a game dedicated to gunplay those stats offer very interesting tradeoffs. In SS13, those stats basically boil down to a configuration that will kill someone the "best", because things like accuracy and range don't really come into play the same way.

If it helps, consider a modern shooter - in this scenario a player can choose between a P90 and a Sniper Rifle. The sniper offers the advantage of high alpha, long range and pinpoint accuracy, with a small magazine and relatively poor handling in close quarters. The player with the P90 has the advantage of a large magazine, very good fire rate and excellent handling in close quarters, with the downsides of being very inaccurate at range and having relatively low damage. This is a great example of a good give and take with the stats of the guns.

Now if you try and translate that to SS13, you lose a lot. Accuracy is always 100%, so that's mostly irrelevant. Same with range, the top-down system does not work well with long-range weapons and there's no way to utilize it well. Handling is irrelevant because aside from requiring two hands for certain weapons, everything's the same. So what you're left with is two guns where one shoots more and the other will kill much much faster. And that's basically what we already have. Allowing people to tinker with this stats will, as Joan said, make for one gun setup that's just *better* than anything else.

Gimmicks aren't easy to balance, don't misunderstand her. But it would certainly make for a more interesting system than being basically forced to build a gun like X if you want to do well.

[Luke Cox]

Messing with stat is fine so long as there's a significant trade-off in other stats. Like I said in the last thread, automatic speed taser snipers should not be possible. However, a semi-auto taser sniper with a huge ass cooldown is fine by me.

[ShadowDimentio]

We're having two slightly different conversations, which is mostly my fault. I was basing my stat discussion on my conceptual version of guncrafting, where there would be a whole bunch of different gun parts, the vast majority of which being optional. A gun is still a gun without a scope or a bayonet and all that. But the crux of my version of guncrafting would be that mods would be scarce outside of the armory, and would be a mixed bag, being either specialized, a mixed bag od bonuses and downsides, or expensive.

Here's a repost of my suggested gun parts from the old thread. Warning: Long and robust, like my cock vocabulary.

Outline: A gun consists of several parts, separated into categories, and a gun may hold only one part from each category, completed with a firing pin.

*BASE
*BARREL
*STOCK
MUZZLE
GRIP
SCOPE
ENERGY MODS
BALLISTIC MODS

The three categories marked with a * REQUIRE a part from the category to be present in the weapon, otherwise the gun WILL NOT FIRE.

Spoiler:

ATTACHMENTS: BASE

Taser Base: +Taser Shots
Disabler Base: +Disabler Shots
Laser Base: +Laser Shots
Pistol Base: +Pistol Shots
Shotgun Base: +Shotgun Shots

=R&D GATE=

Hybrid Taser Base: +Taser Shots +Disabler Shots
Energy Base: +Laser Shots +Disabler Shots
Old Energy Base: +Laser Shots +Taser Shots
Accelerator Laser Base: +Accelerator Laser Shots
Tesla Base: +Tesla Shots
SMG Base: +SMG Shots
Assault Rifle Base: +Assault Rifle Shots
Long Rifle Base: +Long Rifle Shots

ATTACHMENTS: BARREL

Small Barrel: ++Size: Small --Range
Medium Barrel: +Size: Normal +Range
Large Barrel: ++Range -Size: Bulky

ATTACHMENTS: STOCK

Semi Auto: ++Accuracy --Fire Rate
Automatic: ++Fire Rate --Accuracy

=R&D GATE=

Alternating Stock: ++Alternating Mode*
Improved Automatic: +Fire Rate +Accuracy

Alternating Mode: Can alternate between semi auto and auto

ATTACHMENTS: MUZZLE

Barrel Compensator: +Accuracy +Fire Rate
Silencer: ++Silenced* -Damage
Muzzle Brake: ++Fire Rate

=R&D GATE=

Barrel Retractor: ++Size Reduction* +Accuracy

*Silenced: No text notification, quiet shot
*Size Reduction: Gun is one size category smaller than usual. Bulky > Normal >Small >Tiny

ATTACHMENTS: GRIP

Forward Grip: ++Accuracy
Bipod: +Accuracy -Fire Rate
Laser Sight: +Accuracy +Range
Flashlight: ++Light

=R&D GATE=

Bright Laser Sight: +Accuracy +Range +Blind*
Smart Module: +Accuracy +Damage +Range +Fire Rate

Blind: Treat gun as also having function of a laser pointer, complete with blind.

ATTACHMENTS: SCOPE

Scope: +Damage +Accuracy -Fire Rate
Reflex Scope: +Accuracy +Fire Rate

=R&D GATE=

Anatomical Scope: ++Damage -Fire Rate
High Resolution Scope: +Range +Damage +Accuracy --Fire Rate

ATTACHMENTS: ENERGY MODS

Beam Stabilizer: +Range +Damage
Beam Intensifiers: ++Damage -Fire Rate
Improved Capacitors: +Capacity
Recharge Module: ++Recharge Time

=R&D GATE=

Plasma Module: ++Damage +Armor Piercing -Fire Rate
Projectile Hastener: ++Projectile Speed
Energy Amplifier: +Damage +Accuracy
Electroshock Module: ++Stuns -Damage
Charge Generator: ++Charge Generation --Recharging

ATTACHMENTS: BALLISTIC MODS

Full Metal Jacket: +Armor Piercing -Damage
Hollow Point: --Armor Piercing ++Damage +Dismemberment*
Extended Mag: +Capacity
Barrel Mag: ++Capacity -Reload Time
Dart Rounds: ++Chem Dosing* -Armor Piercing

=R&D GATE=

Reagent Infusion: ++Chem Production* ++Chem Dosing --Damage
Railgun Module: +Damage +Armor Piercing +Fire Rate +Range
Depleted Uranium Bullets: ++Armor Piercing +Radiation
Rapid Reloader: +Fire Rate +Reload Time
Ammo Synthesizer: ++Ammo Production --Reloading

Dismemberment: Hollow point rounds can dismember on a limb hit.
Chem Dosing: A desired reagent is supplied to the gun directly and bullets fired will consume and inject 5U of it on a hit.
Chem Production: A desired reagent is supplied to the gun directly which will automatically infuse all bullets fired with a small amount (1U) of it.

[Sweaterkittens]

But that highlights a problem in and of itself, Luke. Tasers don't have damage, range is mostly useless past a certain point, and accuracy is always 100%. Why would you ever want anything other than a taser that fires as fast as possible?

I really think that if we want to introduce gun crafting we need to turn an eye to our current weapons systems and see if we can make it more engaging before we try to remake it completely. If we want to make CR20 fast-firing innacurate submachine guns, lets do it. If L6's could be belt-fed heavy machine guns that get more innacurate the more you fire them, or if using a scope on a sniper could be made more conducive, that's great. I think that trying to make a brand new weapons system using the current admittedly poor one we have is destined for failure.

EDIT: I'm also not particularly excited about the idea of RnD getting even MORE incredibly powerful weaponry that only they can access. Being expensive or time-gated is hardly a meaningful hurdle when research can bang this shit out within the first 20 minutes and be running around in flight suits with guns tailored for EXACTLY how they want to kill everyone.

[ShadowDimentio]

But that highlights a problem in and of itself, Luke. Tasers don't have damage, range is mostly useless past a certain point, and accuracy is always 100%. Why would you ever want anything other than a taser that fires as fast as possible?

Take accuracy and rate of fire to be mutually exclusive. Sure you could have a taser that both shot fast and was accurate, but achieving that would need a much more heavily modded gun than just a plain old taser that works just fine. Plus this is >implying the warden feels like handing you a superpowered taser that could potentially get stolen and fuck sec's life up.

EDIT: I'm also not particularly excited about the idea of RnD getting even MORE incredibly powerful weaponry that only they can access. Being expensive or time-gated is hardly a meaningful hurdle when research can bang this shit out within the first 20 minutes and be running around in flight suits with guns tailored for EXACTLY how they want to kill everyone.

R&D Gate means that R&D will have to have achieved a certain level of research before those items are unlocked for the warden, not that R&D would be able to make them. The warden would retain all authority over guncrafting.

[Luke Cox]

But that highlights a problem in and of itself, Luke. Tasers don't have damage, range is mostly useless past a certain point, and accuracy is always 100%. Why would you ever want anything other than a taser that fires as fast as possible?

I really think that if we want to introduce gun crafting we need to turn an eye to our current weapons systems and see if we can make it more engaging before we try to remake it completely. If we want to make CR20 fast-firing innacurate submachine guns, lets do it. If L6's could be belt-fed heavy machine guns that get more innacurate the more you fire them, or if using a scope on a sniper could be made more conducive, that's great. I think that trying to make a brand new weapons system using the current admittedly poor one we have is destined for failure.

EDIT: I'm also not particularly excited about the idea of RnD getting even MORE incredibly powerful weaponry that only they can access. Being expensive or time-gated is hardly a meaningful hurdle when research can bang this shit out within the first 20 minutes and be running around in flight suits with guns tailored for EXACTLY how they want to kill everyone.

Tasers are the only weapon in that position, range can very much matter in the case of snipers, and why WOULDN'T you want a laser gun that fires absurdly fast? We have damage (could work as stun duration for tasers), firing rate, projectile speed, and charge to work with. There's plenty we can do with that. R&D isn't getting the gun lathe either, security is.

[Haevacht]

More random bullshit utility items, less standard default-ish weapons.

[ShadowDimentio]

And on the concern that sec is going to get crazy good guns and turbofuck anyone that they think is valid, keep in mind that handing out turbofuck guns only works for you as long as they stay in the hands of your dudes.

If a random traitor gets their hands on a lasergun now they're a big threat, imagine a turbofuck lasergun that vomited lasers all over or could hit you from the far end of a hall in the hands of someone that knew how to use it. Thus, I doubt the warden will be handing out guns, let alone fully modded guns unless the shit's already hit the fan and it's quite literally time to whip out our dicks guns and see whose is bigger.

[danno]

I want to build a gun that fits how I like to play and have FUN.

and I want to build a cool computer and have fun playing anything but this shitty game but I have 50 dollars and simply put;

it's not fucking practical or feasible, you monkey

Fucking up balance isn't fun. Having overpowered nonsense just for the sake of it is actually just really fucking stupid and bad for 99% of the people involved. It's shitty to deal with it in-game, it's shitty for admins having to deal with people fucking around with broken nonsense, and it's shitty for coders to try and work with. It promotes more awful power creep shit and generally detracts from the game.

this aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand

You are fucking with me right now.

this

[Luke Cox]

More random bullshit utility items, less standard default-ish weapons.

It's tied to R&D, and there are probably material costs too. If anything, this can be made so that security can't have roundstart tasers. Anti-sec autists should be drooling over this.

[Arianya]

My issues with ma44/goof guncrafting is the following:

a) It introduces lack of clarity into our weapons system, which is never going to be a good thing. If I'm looking in my backpack when I hear a energy shot and I see in chat "Honk McGee fired energy frame", in the split second I have no information on what gun he's using. Is it a tazer gun thats just intending to disable someone? Is it a laser shotgun thats going to kill everyone?

I've not seen the new inhands in use for this system yet but some modular method of naming the guns will probably be essential (i.e. energy frame + laser pointer + splitter mirror = Laser Shotgun) to ensure that the already pretty much "blink and you've lost" combat doesn't become even less clear, and leave people unsure how far they can escalate situations.

b) Balance concerns. I won't harp on about this, as others have already gone back and forth on this, but there's a reason why tazers and eguns have relatively low ammo and why 10/25/50 shot guns would be extremely problematic. Saying "but they take longer to recharge" isn't really good enough, with the availability of pre-made rechargers around the station and the possibility to build new ones. Part of the point of limited ammunition is that sec officers can't spend 6 years hanging out in maint tazing everyone they meet without worrying about fatigue. Part of the advantage given to antagonists is that their weapons can be reloaded on the fly via magazines/clips, eschewing the reliance on rechargers.

Ideally, from my point of view, the aim of guncrafting at the moment should be to get to the point of matching existing gun balance (same values, same effects, no speed snipers or laser machine guns) and from there, once everyone is happy with that, expand from there to take advantage of the new system. I'm aware thats not a very "sexy" thing for a new feature to do, but its also the method that would probably calm most of the complaints and also make mantainers not flinch at the very mention of guncrafting.

c) The meta. Even assuming we action the other issues and get guncrafting into a good place balance wise, theres still going to be an overwhelming desire to game the system and find the most efficient/effective weaponry that can be made. Maybe it'll be shotgun tazers, or machine gun disablers or who even knows what, but its a risk we open ourselves to by making a modular system. It might be one we're happy to accept for the gain in features (and leave it to administrators to regulate the system, possibly by implementing configs for individual parts?), but its worth noting.

[ShadowDimentio]

More random bullshit utility items, less standard default-ish weapons.

It's tied to R&D, and there are probably material costs too. If anything, this can be made so that security can't have roundstart tasers. Anti-sec autists should be drooling over this.

I will strangle ma44 if they require baseline stuff like tasers to have a (rare) material cost.

[Yakumo_Chen]

I think that the biggest problem with guncrafting is that it allows the station to pump out an ungodly number of guns through security, making rounds like Blob or War Ops that are highly dependent on limiting weapon supply even more difficult to balance. Blob is already currently getting completely wrecked in balance due to changes like Duel Weilding, and War Ops also very rarely wins compared to regular Nuke Ops.

Many modes have a high dependency on the antag needing to not being loud or obnoxious enough before every single crew member stops their regular job to go fuck up the antags. Time for each side to Go Loud can be an important facet. Game Balance is as a result highly dependent on how many methods and how fast the crew can Go Loud themselves to deal with antags. For gamemodes like Blob where the entire premise is that the crew is allowed to Go Loud immediately, this becomes essential.

[Luke Cox]

Actual constructive criticism and not whiny bullshit

Fair points, although I think that they can be easily addressed.

a) This is pretty straightforward. In the final version, we could easily implement a dynamic naming scheme for guns. Something like (modifier) + (base) + (barrel). For example, xray laser sniper, automatic laser rifle, taser shotgun, etc.

b) Easily the most valid concern. The best way to address this is to minimize upgrades to capacity and to scale power usage well. Automatic weapons and tasers should burn through charge like no tomorrow. You'll have to decide between a weaker but more reliable gun or a powerful battery-hungry death wand.

c) Kind of the same as point b, I don't think there's going to be a single best weapon for every situation.



Bear in mind that we can tie a lot of powerful upgrades to research levels and material costs. Security can't just pump out guns like no tomorrow. In fact, as I said earlier, this could even be a nerf to roundstart sec if you wanted it to be. Also, there's the possibility for syndicate weapon modules.

[ShadowDimentio]

I think that the biggest problem with guncrafting is that it allows the station to pump out an ungodly number of guns through security, making rounds like Blob or War Ops that are highly dependent on limiting weapon supply even more difficult to balance. Blob is already currently getting completely wrecked in balance due to changes like Duel Weilding, and War Ops also very rarely wins compared to regular Nuke Ops.

>Blobs are currently getting wrecked

Played blob last night with Digdug, we stomped the shit out of the crew. Mostly because nobody fought us and we were robust, but that's pretty much to be expected. Git gud bad blobs :^)

>War awps are currently getting wrecked

Only occasionally played war awp but not terribly long ago I did. I ran straight to the disk and fought through a bridge filled with all of the most robust, most well-equipped people the station had to offer and won almost by myself (a fellow awp and cayenne showed up mid firefight and promptly died). I only ended up losing because the AI locked me in the room with the disk and I was out of C4 and all the other awps got fucked. Git gud bad awps :^)

[Super Aggro Crag]

This guncrapping should be removed. In its pslace will be a system of rails and attachments that do functionally nothing, but change the name of the weapon to "tactical (weaponname)". Upon wielding one you get a "you feel like a space marine" message

[Wyzack]

Crag has solved the balance problem. All hail crag.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Crag has solved the balance problem. All hail crag.

It ain't easy being the best but I do

[calzilla1]

I assume this project is ded?

[kevinz000]

I assume this project is ded?

It is.

[ShadowDimentio]

This is a fun quarantine. Nobody in or out. HEY YOU! GET OFF THAT FENCE! //shooting

GUARDS! WE HAVE A BREACH AT SECTION 16-B, SUSPECT HAS ENTERED THE QUARANTINE! ALL INTERIOR FORCES, CONVERGE ON THE AREA AND SHOOT TO KILL!

[John_Oxford]

you can't kill a idea.

you can only kill the person with the idea.

[PKPenguin321]

you can't kill a idea.

you can only kill the person with the idea.

yeah but you can thoroughly prove an idea is shit in practice, which we did