Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

tunderchief · Post by **tunderchief** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:32 am #2114

After playing several rounds as an HoP antag, and getting dunked by HoP lings and cultists, I've realized how hilariously overpowered HoP antags are. They have unfettered access to every single room and system on the station, can give all-access to anyone they wish, subvert the AI via the new easy to access Upload Chamber, and are in the pole position to murder the Captain and, via line of succession, to take full control of the station.

As a Traitor HoP, I once arrested and executed the Captain and Sec under false charges, placed fellow Traitors in all Security positions, and ran the station as a Totalitarian deathcamp for an hour and a half.

It's too much power for a single bad guy to possess, plain and simple. Since the Captain and Security are nonantag for gameplay purposes, and it is certainly an improvement over what it used to be, I motion that the HoP should fall under this antagproof status as well.

Jeb · Post by **Jeb** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:34 am #2115

tunderchief · Post by **tunderchief** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:35 am #2116

Jeb wrote:no.

Oh look, here we go again with the unbacked opinion stuff. If you're not going to further the discussion, don't shitpost.

Jeb wrote:
tunderchief wrote:Bring back Stenography.

It was one of the most active boards, and it generated a whole lot of valid discussion regarding server policy. It was great being part of the peanut gallery, and being able to speak one's mind about relevant things. Also, I felt it was good for community bonding.
No.

Jeb · Post by **Jeb** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:44 am #2118

tunderchief wrote:
Jeb wrote:no.

Oh look, here we go again with the unbacked opinion stuff. If you're not going to further the discussion, don't shitpost.

Jeb wrote:
tunderchief wrote:Bring back Stenography.

It was one of the most active boards, and it generated a whole lot of valid discussion regarding server policy. It was great being part of the peanut gallery, and being able to speak one's mind about relevant things. Also, I felt it was good for community bonding.
No.

Not a shitpost, and that is exactly my opinion. I don't need to always explain myself.

No = the HoP should not be antagproof.

tunderchief · Post by **tunderchief** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:09 am #2120

Jeb wrote:
tunderchief wrote:
Jeb wrote:no.

Oh look, here we go again with the unbacked opinion stuff. If you're not going to further the discussion, don't shitpost.

Jeb wrote:
tunderchief wrote:Bring back Stenography.

It was one of the most active boards, and it generated a whole lot of valid discussion regarding server policy. It was great being part of the peanut gallery, and being able to speak one's mind about relevant things. Also, I felt it was good for community bonding.
No.
Not a shitpost, and that is exactly my opinion. I don't need to always explain myself.

No = the HoP should not be antagproof.

In a normal discussion, people support their opinions with the reasoning behind it, so that the reasoning can be questioned. If you are not coupling your reasoning to your opinion, you are not contributing, and should thus not post at all.

Kangaraptor · Post by **Kangaraptor** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:52 am #2131

Because the HoP is, really, quite a shitty job that restricts you to one part of the station unless you want to be lynched.

The opportunity to be an antag (maybe, possibly, a tiny little chance) isn't really a problem.

To quote Jeb:

"No."

(not to mention that if you wanna stop antags having instant all-access, you should be stopping the basic HoP from being able to give out ALL ACCESS. HoP-curity is a more pervasive and irritating problem than HoPtators).

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:54 am #2132

HoP is the easiest of all heads. HoP doesn't really have responsibilities unlike others.

I don't think that antagproof is the solution though.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:48 am #2136

If the HoP has very little to do, maybe we should give more for the HoP to do???

On topic, I am of the school of thought that anyone with access to the ID Console, thus infinite All Access ID Cards, should be restricted from antag roles. That's why the HoP lost his right to be a cultist from round start.

Also as Thunder has both said and demonstrated, I was the poor HoS in his story, a antag HoP has INCREDIBLE power and has real authority to wield.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:27 am #2143

No.

It's more !!FUN!! this way.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:55 am #2147

Steelpoint wrote:If the HoP has very little to do, maybe we should give more for the HoP to do???

HoP has plenty of things to do, it's just the majority are too stupid to ask it from them. It's considered fine and dandy if you dress up in owl suit and fuck off with all access as HoP. Captains don't even enforce no-all-access rule.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:16 pm #2148

I still say the HoP should not be able to give out captain or head-level access. Maybe even Sec too. Heads should be assigned by the Captain alone. Sec would require HoS or Captain ID consoles.

But yeah, i agree antag HoP its too strong. They have access to whatever they want, and anyone calling them out will probably get killed unless the HoP has done something obvious like murder in hallways with witnesses. Sure it can result in !!FUN!!, but its mostly just the HoP murderboning or giving out random all-access IDs.

tunderchief · Post by **tunderchief** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:08 pm #2150

Alex Crimson wrote:I still say the HoP should not be able to give out captain or head-level access. Maybe even Sec too. Heads should be assigned by the Captain alone. Sec would require HoS or Captain ID consoles.

But yeah, i agree antag HoP its too strong. They have access to whatever they want, and anyone calling them out will probably get killed unless the HoP has done something obvious like murder in hallways with witnesses. Sure it can result in !!FUN!!, but its mostly just the HoP murderboning or giving out random all-access IDs.

>HoP ling

>:g Everyone come get all-access

>now every fucking ling can go anywhere

This happens surprisingly often, like my last four ling games.

420goslingboy69 · Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:09 pm

I want Captain antag back so no.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:23 pm #2153

What if we give HoP antag protection, but not Captain?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:26 pm #2156

That would not really solve anything, at least not the problem from the OP.

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:13 pm #2169

Is hop antag powerful? Yes.
But
"this is a game. Sometimes things happen that are beyond your control".

HoP is probably the most potent antag role currently on-station, but there are some real interesting rounds that come out of powerful antags

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:26 pm #2172

If Captain is unable to get antagonist, then the HoP should also be unable to get it -- at least until such a point where the HoP doesn't de-facto have the same access.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:30 pm #2192

The problem is not all access. The problem is that people think it's normal for HoP to fuck around, steal items and so on. Even if you get all access legitimately, people will try to get you out of their departments. Well, nobody does that with HoP, and they should. Default all access thing should be gone.

Lovecraft · Post by **Lovecraft** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:47 pm #2198

No, because by God not everything needs to be fun-proofed.
The Head of Personnel is not the Captain. It isn't Security.
That means they are liable and more susceptible to be working with the Syndicate, or other forces. That's the first way I look at this sort of thing.
As someone who's played Head of Personnel way too much to count, I don't really see a need to antagban it. I've never been really able to abuse it in such a way as to warrant it, and I've personally never seen it happen. Turning the station into a dictatorship isn't something that warrants a need to get rid of the slot all together, it's just a way to make the round different and interesting.
Even if a Head of Personnel gets Antag. and somehow decimates the station with it, is that really a problem? This is a game, people need something to work against. I don't want to see this chance for being an interesting antagonist be taken away over meaningless whining. Most rouge Head of Personnels in my experience get dunked by Sec. or the Captain, or make the round a Hell of a lot better.
I'm very glad you were able to use the job to bring the station to it's knees, Tunder, but that doesn't mean the job needs to be antag-neutered over it.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:48 pm #2199

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:The problem is not all access. The problem is that people think it's normal for HoP to fuck around, steal items and so on. Even if you get all access legitimately, people will try to get you out of their departments. Well, nobody does that with HoP, and they should. Default all access thing should be gone.

The thing is, the Head of Personnel's job is changing people's access. So, if you remove his access to the ID Computer, he is now pointless. If you keep his access to the ID Computer (ie. Status quo), he's going to have all access all day, because he's the one in charge of handing out access.

I mean, if you want to merge that into Captain, and make the Captain the only one capable of changing access levels while removing the HoP altogether, that might work.

Edit: Also, +1 to Lovecraft.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:59 pm #2212

I do not think HoP needs removing. Its an important role. Giving it to the Captain doesnt seem right, and would keep him too distracted from his normal Captain duties of doing what he wants. However i still think the HoP should not be able to give out head or captain-level access. That should be a captain-only role. Call it "fun-proofing" if you want. But ive seen HoPs randomly give people all-access way too much.

HoP can have free reign as an antag to do whatever he wants. Walk into any department and sabotage anything. Its not like you can just randomly call him a traitor just because he walks around your workstation either.

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:03 pm #2214

Well, someone has to be the strongest antag role on the station. Make HoP antag-proof? People will start whining about how RD should be antag-proofed, because he can subvert AI even easier than HoP. Then CE, then every head.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:31 pm #2217

Other heads have no ability to alter their IDs or have access to Energy Guns without foul play(Emags and such). RD can make a mech, but thats a fairly long process, not something he can whip up on a console within a minute of roundstart.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:01 pm #2224

Psyentific wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:The problem is not all access. The problem is that people think it's normal for HoP to fuck around, steal items and so on. Even if you get all access legitimately, people will try to get you out of their departments. Well, nobody does that with HoP, and they should. Default all access thing should be gone.
The thing is, the Head of Personnel's job is changing people's access. So, if you remove his access to the ID Computer, he is now pointless. If you keep his access to the ID Computer (ie. Status quo), he's going to have all access all day, because he's the one in charge of handing out access.

I mean, if you want to merge that into Captain, and make the Captain the only one capable of changing access levels while removing the HoP altogether, that might work.

Edit: Also, +1 to Lovecraft.

I didn't say remove ID computer access from HoP, that'd be silly. People just need to change their attitude towards HoP. I will throw HoP in jail if he dares to come into armory, I'll prod his ass for fiddling with stuff in engineering, I'll syringe gun him full of sleep toxin or something if he's stealing medkits.

HoP only has authority over cargo and civilians, and, frankly, I'd remove his egun as well. I mean, sure, he has this sodding ID computer access, but I believe it would be more healthy that way.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:02 pm #2234

Dont play to win. Play to have fun.

Too many things are already antag-proof in my opinion. Dont make the most boring job even more boring.

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:22 pm #2235

Alex Crimson wrote:Other heads have no ability to alter their IDs or have access to Energy Guns without foul play(Emags and such). RD can make a mech, but thats a fairly long process, not something he can whip up on a console within a minute of roundstart.

RD can subvert the AI without ever approaching upload.

Rolan7 · Post by **Rolan7** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:42 pm #2249

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:HoP is the easiest of all heads. HoP doesn't really have responsibilities unlike others.

I don't think that antagproof is the solution though.

I agree, but want to note that the HoP theoretically has more responsibilities than the other heads save Captain - They're supposed to manage the kitchen and library (easy, alright), the clown and mime, and freakin *cargo*. It's just that nobody ever expects them to actually manage their department, and hence we had guncargo constantly - because the QM was given the powers of a head, but none of the responsibilities.

But in fact, yeah, HoPs have all-access and little is expected of them, making them the most powerful profession for antags to roll. Antag-protection isn't the answer, it's raising awareness of what the Owlman *should* be doing (hint: not playing security).

AseaHeru · Post by **AseaHeru** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:31 pm #2432

To the OP, I say yes. Its overly easy to do anything, trators get basically easymode due to a cooperative tater HoP, it dosent make sense from a lore standpoint (this is the second in command for heaven sakes!) and in general sounds like a good idea to restrict it.

And Rolan is right, officially they have massive quanitys of work on them, in reality they fuck off and play UberSec/as-close-to-greefing-as-we-can-legaly-get

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:33 pm #2433

Shitty traitors will do shit anyway, good traitors can do A LOT of fun stuff with that role.

tunderchief · Post by **tunderchief** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:03 pm #2442

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Shitty traitors will do shit anyway, good traitors can do A LOT of fun stuff with that role.

This. More often than not, the antag HoP gives himself away.

Honestly, I don't think HoP should be necessarily antagproof. But teamwork-based antags, like cult or ling, empowers an antag HoP far too much, since they have easy methods of communication with others of their ilk, and can hand out all-access to specifically other antagonists.

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:30 pm #2498

I say yes, HoP is Captain Lite. I think Goon wiki actually described him as "traitor Captain" for a long time.

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:11 pm #2531

Goon captain can be a traitor.

TheTerbs · Post by **TheTerbs** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:56 am #2645

no

HoP antag is amazing, 50 clown positions and a guy running around with all access and any name he chooses

AseaHeru · Post by **AseaHeru** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:04 pm #2904

You know people get promoted, right?

Again, I support this idea.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu May 01, 2014 8:19 am #3061

I'm fine with antag HoP. It is very strong, but he's still just a head, not captain.

As warden I will tase and brig if neccessary, any HoP that thinks they can just come into the brig/armory and take shit, and try get the HoS and cap to demote his ass for abusing his position.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Thu May 01, 2014 8:49 am #3062

I'd be happy removing ling and cult hop but if you take him off antag no one will play it and we will forever lose "the station is my playground" rounds.

Admittedly many hop traitors are boring as shit, but no one else can make a round as fucking awesome as a hop traitor bringing about a cargonian parapen revolution.

Besides, few traitors actually murderbone as the HoP because it's too high profile. Even if you disguise, people are going to wonder where the HoP is and why this asshole has all access.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Thu May 01, 2014 1:51 pm #3087

Playing antag HoP is not about doing things yourself. You offer all-access to the other antags as a bribe to complete your objectives for you! I am 100% against antag proofing any more positions. Placing restrictions on things like this will only serve to increase the rate of repetitive rounds. We do not need more stale and uneventful rounds where the shuttle is called due to sheer boredom.

In my honest opinion, only Security or at the very least the HoS should have antag protection.

AseaHeru · Post by **AseaHeru** » Thu May 01, 2014 2:19 pm #3091

So you are fine with the captain, the guy incharge of everything, randomly becoming a trator?
The guy with the final say in all things security?

420goslingboy69 · Thu May 01, 2014 2:22 pm

AseaHeru wrote:So you are fine with the captain, the guy incharge of everything, randomly becoming a trator?
The guy with the final say in all things security?

Being the captain is the antag captain's biggest weakness.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu May 01, 2014 2:54 pm #3099

Instead of systematically making every role antagproof (at one point there was a call to make assistants antag-proof), why not just restore it to the way it used to be and open up antagonist status to everyone again? Even the HoP. Even Security. Even the captain.

HoP antag in particular can be interesting because the guy has few responsibilities but lots of access, which frees him to do creative traitoring. In theory.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu May 01, 2014 3:02 pm #3101

At bare minimum Security should be antag proof, everything else is a side dish. You need a reliable protagonist for every antagonist, no good story has no protagonists.

TheTerbs · Post by **TheTerbs** » Thu May 01, 2014 4:37 pm #3110

Steelpoint wrote:At bare minimum Security should be antag proof, everything else is a side dish. You need a reliable protagonist for every antagonist, no good story has no protagonists.

No

The point is not being able to trust anyone

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Thu May 01, 2014 4:50 pm #3117

AseaHeru wrote:So you are fine with the captain, the guy incharge of everything, randomly becoming a trator?
The guy with the final say in all things security?

Absolutely. A Captain cannot overtly be traitorous, and yet it opens them up to basically do whatever the hell they want with the station.

With absolute power and authority, creative traitors can do incredible things that are fun for everyone.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu May 01, 2014 4:53 pm #3118

I disagree, Security is a nightmare when your own Officers backstab you at a crime scene or the HoS tries to detonate a bomb behind you. I'm not going to waste my time playing Security and constantly dying to my own Officers and never fully trusting them. Security is hard enough without that added on top.

Personally I can handle everything the player base can throw at me except Security Antag and I will not play Security should Sec antag be re enabled. Of course Sec Antag is a hotly debated issue even today.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Thu May 01, 2014 4:59 pm #3120

Steelpoint wrote:I disagree, Security is a nightmare when your own Officers backstab you at a crime scene or the HoS tries to detonate a bomb behind you. I'm not going to waste my time playing Security and constantly dying to my own Officers and never fully trusting them. Security is hard enough without that added on top.

Personally I can handle everything the player base can throw at me except Security Antag and I will not play Security should Sec antag be re enabled. Of course Sec Antag is a hotly debated issue even today.

I agree. Respect for security is slowly growing. As a HoS I very rarely here "SHITCURITY" yelled out genuinely anymore.

It also helps hugely with adminhelps. Now that security can't be antag, when an officer is treating you like shit you know you should ahelp straight away instead of being hesitant with the possibility he is a traitor.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Thu May 01, 2014 5:50 pm #3130

TheTerbs wrote: No

The point is not being able to trust anyone

Is knowledge that those incompetent faggots will fail to do whatever you say not enough?

Who the fuck needs this "paranoia" and "not being able to trust anyone" crap? Shove it up your ass, please, and don't say that it's the "point" or the game is "meant to be like that" or whatever.

TheTerbs · Post by **TheTerbs** » Thu May 01, 2014 6:26 pm #3137

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
TheTerbs wrote: No

The point is not being able to trust anyone
Is knowledge that those incompetent faggots will fail to do whatever you say not enough?

Who the fuck needs this "paranoia" and "not being able to trust anyone" crap? Shove it up your ass, please, and don't say that it's the "point" or the game is "meant to be like that" or whatever.

The main point of the game is fucking paranoia you big fat fucking faggot

Oh please is it the robust combat system or the gorgeous graphics that draw you to the game?

The main fucking part of the gameplay is not trust anyone you gigantic cock choking pussy

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu May 01, 2014 6:29 pm #3138

There is a limit to everything Terbs, just because "paranoia" is a feature of SS13 does not mean we have to take it to its absolute extreme.

Personally I still think some people want Security antag just so they have easy access to stun weaponry and authority without actual effort to get either of those two in game.

TheTerbs · Post by **TheTerbs** » Thu May 01, 2014 6:33 pm #3140

Steelpoint wrote:There is a limit to everything Terbs, just because "paranoia" is a feature of SS13 does not mean we have to take it to its absolute extreme.

Personally I still think some people want Security antag just so they have easy access to stun weaponry and authority without actual effort to get either of those two in game.

That's a pretty fuckin stupid thought

Oh yes let's make some people unable to be a traitor so you can use meta knowledge on who to trust because you get dunked too easily

420goslingboy69 · Thu May 01, 2014 6:33 pm

Steelpoint wrote:There is a limit to everything Terbs, just because "paranoia" is a feature of SS13 does not mean we have to take it to its absolute extreme.

Personally I still think some people want Security antag just so they have easy access to stun weaponry and authority without actual effort to get either of those two in game.

Maybe it's because it's fucking fun? Your idea of Security is so warped and pessimistic, Steelpoint, it's honestly astonishing. You probably think ever single crew member hates Security and Security is a separate entity from the crew.