Can we get rid of the headmin player vote please

[captain sawrge]

>go on forums and make vague promises that you probably still won't uphold or promise things completely out of your power to appease the widest group of players
>in-game do your best to make every player happy with you regardless of rules/policy/etc. for 2 weeks so they like you more
>win the popularity contest
>either flaunt your power a little bit or end up not wanting to to avoid rocking boat, get bored and decide you dont want it anymore

[DemonFiren]

[PKPenguin321]

Vote for me lol

[Qbopper]

I dunno I think removing the headmin player vote is a bad idea

Removing player candidates strikes me as less awful but would still result in outcry

[captain sawrge]

I dunno I think removing the headmin player vote is a bad idea

Removing player candidates strikes me as less awful but would still result in outcry

Why do you think it's a bad idea?

[Fiz Bump]

I dunno I think removing the headmin player vote is a bad idea

Removing player candidates strikes me as less awful but would still result in outcry

Why do you think it's a bad idea?

Since the administration team is ostensibly in place to serve the playerbase, I feel that we should allow the playerbase the chance to choose a headmin that is aligned with their interests.

[Qbopper]

I dunno I think removing the headmin player vote is a bad idea

Removing player candidates strikes me as less awful but would still result in outcry

Why do you think it's a bad idea?

Since the administration team is ostensibly in place to serve the playerbase, I feel that we should allow the playerbase the chance to choose a headmin that is aligned with their interests.

essentially this

removing the player vote is a bad idea because it gives the impression that the entire admin/headmin team is a giant old boy's club

[Munchlax]

no

[Arianya]

Really the actual answer is to be a lot more stringent with disqualifying candidates at the first whiff of poor behaviour, such as open faced attempts at bribery.

Headmin terms are 4 months at the moment, if you fuck around and do shady shit then you get to sit out this round of elections.

[Qbopper]

Really the actual answer is to be a lot more stringent with disqualifying candidates at the first whiff of poor behaviour, such as open faced attempts at bribery.

Headmin terms are 4 months at the moment, if you fuck around and do shady shit then you get to sit out this round of elections.

good compromise imo, and if it's made clear shit will be cracked down on then we won't have oranges trying to sit there asking "this is obviously a joke but do I want to nuke it" ala timbre

[starmute]

>go on forums and make vague promises that you probably still won't uphold or promise things completely out of your power to appease the widest group of players
>in-game do your best to make every player happy with you regardless of rules/policy/etc. for 2 weeks so they like you more
>win the popularity contest
>either flaunt your power a little bit or end up not wanting to to avoid rocking boat, get bored and decide you dont want it anymore

How about no.

Admin circle jerk vote is shit too.

[Qbopper]

>go on forums and make vague promises that you probably still won't uphold or promise things completely out of your power to appease the widest group of players
>in-game do your best to make every player happy with you regardless of rules/policy/etc. for 2 weeks so they like you more
>win the popularity contest
>either flaunt your power a little bit or end up not wanting to to avoid rocking boat, get bored and decide you dont want it anymore

How about no.

Admin circle jerk vote is shit too.

What do you mean by "circlejerk vote"? That statement is as ridiculous as removing the player vote

[captain sawrge]

>go on forums and make vague promises that you probably still won't uphold or promise things completely out of your power to appease the widest group of players
>in-game do your best to make every player happy with you regardless of rules/policy/etc. for 2 weeks so they like you more
>win the popularity contest
>either flaunt your power a little bit or end up not wanting to to avoid rocking boat, get bored and decide you dont want it anymore

How about no.

Admin circle jerk vote is shit too.

They're both popularity contests but admins are at least more privy to what their peers are up to.

[starmute]

They're both popularity contests but admins are at least more privy to what their peers are up to.

Also more prone for cronyism and favoritism.

[captain sawrge]

They're both popularity contests but admins are at least more privy to what their peers are up to.

Also more prone for cronyism and favoritism.

I think you are taking this children's game a little too seriously in general my friend

[starmute]

I think you are taking this children's game a little too seriously in general my friend

I really don't care. I'm just stating you're not going to get a perfect system.

I do take childrens card games very seriously yugi.

[J_Madison]

hey you could do a donor headmin vote if you feel it's an admin circlejerk.

but that's essentially paying for admins.

[Luke Cox]

>Waaah, players can vote for someone who disagrees with me!

If we have to remove a vote, it should be the admin one.

[captain sawrge]

>Waaah, players can vote for someone who disagrees with me!

If we have to remove a vote, it should be the admin one.

Could you explain your reasoning behind this?
I think you missed the point completely or only read the topic then immediately jumped to shitpost but if you have actual contribution to the discussion I'd love to hear it.

[captain sawrge]

I think you are taking this children's game a little too seriously in general my friend

I really don't care. I'm just stating you're not going to get a perfect system.

I do take childrens card games very seriously yugi.

I guess what you're saying has merit, but I think simply by the nature of admins' actions being far more visible to other actions than players it's a lot easier for admins to make an informed decision. The player poll is basically just a popularity contest because most people don't read the forums anyway and are just going to vote for whichever admin pinged them the less/included them in the most events/banned the people they didn't like etc.
I've watched these elections for years and every year a bunch of people base their platform on these grandiose promises to fix the server and then realize what they wanted to do is nigh impossible, and yet everyone continues to do it because it doesn't really matter what you do after you're voted in, all that matters is getting there to begin with.

[Haevacht]

Vote for me lol

[starmute]

I think you are taking this children's game a little too seriously in general my friend

I really don't care. I'm just stating you're not going to get a perfect system.

I do take childrens card games very seriously yugi.

I guess what you're saying has merit, but I think simply by the nature of admins' actions being far more visible to other actions than players it's a lot easier for admins to make an informed decision. The player poll is basically just a popularity contest because most people don't read the forums anyway and are just going to vote for whichever admin pinged them the less/included them in the most events/banned the people they didn't like etc.
I've watched these elections for years and every year a bunch of people base their platform on these grandiose promises to fix the server and then realize what they wanted to do is nigh impossible, and yet everyone continues to do it because it doesn't really matter what you do after you're voted in, all that matters is getting there to begin with.

You know I've watched them too. You're right on with the player elections and their problems but there also is problems with clicks forming in the administration where people become buddy-buddy. Suddenly someone insults another and fur flies and you have a intigracy-HBL situation where admins hate each other. Admins pick sides and there are hurt feelings for years to come. The arguments can come from anywhere or anything. Ultimately I think that the person elected as the admin canidate has to be working the populist angle too. There is no world where a very abrasive candidate would be elected as a admin candidate, however since people who do work often come off as abrasive when they have to argue for their particular system and butt heads with admins. Thats why you never saw someone like bromethis elected as the admin candidate.

[oranges]

the answer to your question is no. I'm happy with the format that currently exists and am not considering any changes to it.

[Qbopper]

the answer to your question is no. I'm happy with the format that currently exists and am not considering any changes to it.

Glad to hear this, it's by no means a perfect system but it's better than any alternative I can imagine

[CPTANT]

I say we just elect me as benevolent dictator and get rid of those pesky elections all together.

[Wyzack]

the problem with the player vote is that most players do not read the forums or even give too much of a fuck, they just want to play a fucking videogame. As such in order to win you just have to literally shill in OOC as that is the only way to connect with the majority of the voterbase, and since many of them dont really give a shit they will likely just vote for whoever they see the most of or whoever is funny/makes grandiose promises that they want to see.

This is not really a good thing for the server/policy but i dont think taking away the players ability to influence server policy and shit is the answer. The only thing that would really be better is forcing the players to pretend to read a pile of shit on each candidate before voting, but at the end of the day THIS IS A FUCKING GAME and no one takes it as seriously as we do here on the forums. Nor should they really.

[oranges]

the problem with the player vote is that most players do not read the forums or even give too much of a fuck, they just want to play a fucking videogame. As such in order to win you just have to literally shill in OOC as that is the only way to connect with the majority of the voterbase, and since many of them dont really give a shit they will likely just vote for whoever they see the most of or whoever is funny/makes grandiose promises that they want to see.

This is not really a good thing for the server/policy but i dont think taking away the players ability to influence server policy and shit is the answer. The only thing that would really be better is forcing the players to pretend to read a pile of shit on each candidate before voting, but at the end of the day THIS IS A FUCKING GAME and no one takes it as seriously as we do here on the forums. Nor should they really.

So what you're saying is you have to play the game to be elected head admin? And you think that this is a problem?

[Wyzack]

No, just that most players will not vote based on actual stances for things but sheer exposure/meme potential

[oranges]

I would almost agree with you, but in every election I've overseen so far the players have usually elected in my opinion the best of the three headmins in each trifecta.

They elected Kor and they elected OkAnd37.

So I haven't seen much evidence for them only voting for meme candidates.

[Wyzack]

Fair enough, you cant really dispute hard evidence like that

[Qbopper]

Out of curiosity, is there a history of vote results for player votes? I'm interested in seeing how many votes meme candidates have gotten in the past

[oranges]

We really only have a good record of the last two, as they used the IRV system I had mso develop

https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltally.php?id=145
https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltally.php?id=152

I think the other votes might be on erro's poll page but I'm not sure.

[NikNakFlak]

hoo boy let me try to remember

Farthest back I got is

HBL - Voted in by literally thread vote (post in a thread to vote)
Intigracy - Voted in by literally thread vote (post in a thread to vote)
Deuryn - I think he was legacied in?

-An0n3 - Player vote I think...?
-Ikarrus - Admin vote I think...?
-Hg - Codervote back when coders voted?

-Somewhere along the lines MSO and Sticky become deputy headmins

-Stickymayhem - Admin vote
-Sometinyprick - Player vote
-HG - Codervote or MSO pick? Not sure, don't remember


-Ausops - Admin vote
- ???? (Korphaeron maybe?) - Player vote?
- ?????


-Somewhere around this time scones was deputy headmin

- HG - Admin vote
- ????
- ???

-Shaps - Admin vote
- Korphaeron - Player vote
- Leoz - host/last headmin vote


-TehSteveo - Admin vote
- Okand - Player vote
- Krusvik - Host/last Headmin vote

- Leoz takes over as filler headmin for okand


- Admin vote: TBD
- Player vote: TBD
- Joan - Host/Last headmin vote


I might be missing a group or two, we have elections pretty damn often tbh

[lzimann]

- Ausops - Admin vote
- Lollerderby - player vote
- Jordie - MSO pick

- HG - Admin vote
- Kor - player vote
- Shadowlight - mso pick

I believe scones left before ausops was headmin(not sure though). Also in the ausops term they left 4 months in, replaced by HG.

[Reece]

Remove players

[Wyzack]

Remove players

unfortunately with Seagrimir gone this is but a fond dream

[Qbopper]

there's no one to break rules if there's no one pllaying

[Saegrimr]

Remove players

unfortunately with Seagrimir gone this is but a fond dream

I'm giving the other admins a chance to catch up, maybe they can fix the servers dying over my ban list being too huge.

[BeeSting12]

- HG - Admin vote
- ????
- ???

Wasn't it shadowlight and kor or am I forgetting this?

[Munchlax]

- HG - Admin vote
- Kor - player vote
- Shadowlight - mso pick

this shows that the real vote that should be removed is the adminvote

[Luke Cox]

>Waaah, players can vote for someone who disagrees with me!

If we have to remove a vote, it should be the admin one.

Could you explain your reasoning behind this?
I think you missed the point completely or only read the topic then immediately jumped to shitpost but if you have actual contribution to the discussion I'd love to hear it.

Admin picks are little more than the result of the admin clique's circlejerking. Player picks are meant to keep the clique in line. I'm not advocating for the removal of any, but if I had to pick one, I'd remove the admin-picked headmin in a heartbeat.

[ShadowDimentio]

>go on forums and make vague promises that you probably still won't uphold or promise things completely out of your power to appease the widest group of players
>in-game do your best to make every player happy with you regardless of rules/policy/etc. for 2 weeks so they like you more
>win the popularity contest
>either flaunt your power a little bit or end up not wanting to to avoid rocking boat, get bored and decide you dont want it anymore

Now that you've described how admins act please explain how players would

[captain sawrge]

>go on forums and make vague promises that you probably still won't uphold or promise things completely out of your power to appease the widest group of players
>in-game do your best to make every player happy with you regardless of rules/policy/etc. for 2 weeks so they like you more
>win the popularity contest
>either flaunt your power a little bit or end up not wanting to to avoid rocking boat, get bored and decide you dont want it anymore

Now that you've described how admins act please explain how players would

...yes? I did describe how admins act, how astute an observation.

Players don't see the same things other admins see, purely because admins work with each other and thus have a more complete idea of their peers' general conduct and behavior. If we're going to have a player vote at all, I would just rather it without all the bullshit politicking because in the end, it's all mostly meaningless and very little of it can/will be upheld.

[Qbopper]

I find the idea of removing the admin vote because of the idea of cliques or whatever hilarious

One thread we're a group of scheming nazis with a plan to elect a facist and the next we're all infighting incompetents who can't even agree on a single policy

I'm obviously exaggerating but come on man, admins are people too, we just happen to have a better idea of what a headmin's role entails - yes, we fuck up and yes we aren't always the greatest, but the idea you present is just flat out unreasonable

If you genuinely believe that removing the vote for a headmin from the most informed group on what that vote means and how viable a candidate is over the idea of "clique circlejerking" I really don't know what else to say to you on the subject

[ShadowDimentio]

I was mostly meming but never forget that the admins voted in HG.

[Qbopper]

I was mostly meming but never forget that the admins voted in HG.

To be fair, I dunno when that was but the admin team does cycle through a lot of people

[Luke Cox]

I find the idea of removing the admin vote because of the idea of cliques or whatever hilarious

One thread we're a group of scheming nazis with a plan to elect a facist and the next we're all infighting incompetents who can't even agree on a single policy

I'm obviously exaggerating but come on man, admins are people too, we just happen to have a better idea of what a headmin's role entails - yes, we fuck up and yes we aren't always the greatest, but the idea you present is just flat out unreasonable

If you genuinely believe that removing the vote for a headmin from the most informed group on what that vote means and how viable a candidate is over the idea of "clique circlejerking" I really don't know what else to say to you on the subject

My point is that OP is saying that the players should have fuck all influence, but a small clique voting for a headmin is totally okay. Certainly doesn't help the perception that the admins are part of a small, corrupt club. I get where you're coming from, admins knowing the inner workings and all, but the fact that the admins voted for someone like HG has pretty much rendered that viewpoint completely invalid in the eyes of the average player. Yes, admins are just people. They aren't enlightened sages, and their opinions don't hold any more water than any other regular player in my opinion.

[NikNakFlak]

I was mostly meming but never forget that the admins voted in HG.

You say this as an insult. I wear it like a badge of honor

[oranges]

shitposting brainman I banish thee

[cedarbridge]

- HG - Admin vote
- Kor - player vote
- Shadowlight - mso pick

this shows that the real vote that should be removed is the adminvote

upboated