Tragedy of the commons, tg's lack of depth

ShadowDimentio · Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:32 pm

Bottom post of the previous page:

[autistic screeching]

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:37 pm #266166

WJohnston wrote:clearly we should give that power to HG

again.

Time to exile WJ

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:36 am #266206

wjohn is being sarcastic

on the off chance he isn't we can go fabricate erp logs

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:39 am #266234

I'd be cool with giving kor near omnipotent power.

Kor's made some of the best stuff in the game like slimes and lavaland.

If we want to make the game mechanically deeper it's going to have to be making shifts lasting longer as well. With perhaps a few more events added to actually keep people occupied and interested in the game rather than oh i finished X and its been an hour can we restart already?

Also real station goals similar to dna vault that give benefits to everyone. Meteor shield as it is now sucks complete and total ass

ShadowDimentio · Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:46 am

Kor didn't make slimes. He didn't make the slime console either, that was Goof.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:49 am #266239

Kor did make slimes.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:34 am #266254

The problems are multiple:

- A lack of players roleplaying and using the depth we do have. This is probably the major one. We have so much content that is fairly deep and goes unused.
- A lack of actual new on-station content. When was the last time we had a station job, something like telescience?
- The code either not being set up for object-object interactions, or the coders shooting such things down as "snowflake."

ShadowDimentio · Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:51 am

TG always has been and likely always will be low RP, so that's not a problem we have to face.

Post by **Owegno** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:43 am #266326

ShadowDimentio wrote:TG always has been and likely always will be low RP, so that's not a problem we have to face.

Blatantly wrong though, when I started playing SS13 /tg/station was advertised as a medium RP server that is a middle ground between goon and bay. It was not until sometime like 2015 that everyone suddenly decided we were low RP and nobody seemed to even question it.

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:59 am #266329

Was it truly mid rp or was it just lowpop

Post by **Owegno** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:06 am #266331

D&B wrote:Was it truly mid rp or was it just lowpop

At the very least people referred to it as mid RP and it was certainly not lowpop. It did feel like the RP was higher than it is now, but I'm not sure how much of that is nostalgia glasses.

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:10 am #266334

If you want the old bagil just go into Sybil.

I truly believe it was only low pop since with low pop, there's less people to fuck up the station. Bombs are not used as much since the casualty number goes down. And since the pop is lower, you actually interact more fully with the others on station.

Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:31 am

Probably an easy first step would be to utilize Github's projects system as basically a design outline. List out changes you want and all the little details about what exactly you mean. The idea would be an interested developer could implement a feature themselves using the proposed outline while having to make as few judgement calls as possible. You could have different projects for different areas of the game (R&D, Engineering, Round structure, Combat, etc) or just give each member their own project they're free to play around with at their discretion.

And for the record, we could have always just used Trello to do this.

EDIT: You could also go more freeform, I suppose, but in general I think this should be highly structured.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:40 am #266338

We didn't used to have "low pop" though. IIRC we've been able to sustain a relatively consistent 40-70 players depending for years.

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:02 am #266341

I've played for months on bagil when it hardly broke 25 players.

The higher pop server used to be Sybil, which was also the most chaotic one as well.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:26 am #266343

i do genuinely think giving kor supreme cosmic power would be for the best

kor 2017: because someone needs to steer this clusterfuck

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:09 am #266348

it depends on how far back you go.

I think around 2011 or 2012 was when /tg/station was well known for being a 'medium rp' server. Back then the three most reffered to servers were Goonstation, /tg/station and Baystation. If you wanted low rp you went with goon, if you wanted high rp you went to Bay.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:08 pm #266365

D&B wrote:I've played for months on bagil when it hardly broke 25 players.

The higher pop server used to be Sybil, which was also the most chaotic one as well.

The main server is sybil, stop trying to rewrite history.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:10 pm #266368

but history is pretty much exactly what sybil is

FantasticFwoosh · Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:20 pm

I stopped playing because i was sick to death of the game in its current state, 1/2 years ago it was in a good place but now its bloated. I think the thawing and feature bloats when coderbus bursts at the seams to push their individual meme projects through definitely contributed to it.

Right now its a sandbox that fizzles out, its part of the issue with the SS13 game format in which you need to wait to leave, lesser servers have no ckey player active but a lot of braindead people waiting around because they all stopped playing but the station kept going.

> On CM there is a constant objective to kill the opposing team, then the round just ends or they evacuate/get destroyed, its one or the other but makes for timely competitive rounds. We have 'bosses' but unless we literally make the legion a round ending-boss that calls the shuttle because the planet is going to explode by taking a huge chunk of plasma ore it was guarding it'd fufill the same purpose if a little bit goofy

> Security is the most job depthless pragmatic role on the station purely attributed to being the role of marines on CM in which they 'kill the opposing team'. I actually HATE the idea of datum antags because it just gives infinite antagonist fodder which can cause WIDESPREAD devastation interrupting a round constantly rather than fixing game-modes to have depth. Rev/gang/nukeop rounds are short and sweet, blob rounds are sort of cancerous but also end in a format that fits it being a 'round'

I can supply every idea i've ever had on demand if you want me to, mostly QOL or new direction ideas to add depth. Remember when you wanted to add space bikes Oranges?

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:32 pm #266411

Space bikes aren't really a good example of depth in the way the OP means. Scattered features like that generally aren't, though they are easier to code than what would be. A good example of depth would be entirely new gameplay mechanics or space station functionality. (Plumbing, for instance, if added, would be an example of depth.)

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:42 pm #266417

Steelpoint wrote:it depends on how far back you go.

I think around 2011 or 2012 was when /tg/station was well known for being a 'medium rp' server. Back then the three most reffered to servers were Goonstation, /tg/station and Baystation. If you wanted low rp you went with goon, if you wanted high rp you went to Bay.

I had to discourage someone from thinking in terms of "valid/not valid" the other day because he thought /tg/ was on the level of hippiestation

if that isn't alarming to anyone else I don't know how to contribute to the conversation

FantasticFwoosh · Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:49 pm

bandit wrote:Space bikes aren't really a good example of depth in the way the OP means. Scattered features like that generally aren't, though they are easier to code than what would be. A good example of depth would be entirely new gameplay mechanics or space station functionality. (Plumbing, for instance, if added, would be an example of depth.)

Its elaboration on what we have, space exploration already exists in ruins so it was adding onto that.

ShadowDimentio · Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:51 pm

Space exploration is another frontier we could expand on, as currently we went from "nothing is in space" to "space will fucking annihilate you, and there's nothing in space".

FantasticFwoosh · Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:58 pm

Mining portrays poor depth because past looting the entire map & killing all the bosses in sequence its a shallow hour/half a hour romp before they cap the endgame and are basically godlike. This is something future discussions on depth should avoid & many station progression jobs end up doing (botany is open ended in its nature, R&D caps off but still has illegal & abductor tech open, medical becomes CLICK TO HEAL IN SLEEPERS with upgrades etc.)

We need something we can do indefinitely, nobody is going to be insane enough to dig out the entire map clear of rocks for a purpose, while people will beat up a few bosses easily especially if they cheat and cheese it to ruin the progression experience and rush to the end immediately even if its a ninja gaiden strategy.

IGN: 5/10

+ Richly detailed world and lore
- Too short and sweet, ores get sidetracked and become grindy
- Endgame is enjoyable for only a short while, minor replayability

captain sawrge · Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:06 pm

ShadowDimentio wrote:Space exploration is another frontier we could expand on, as currently we went from "nothing is in space" to "space will fucking annihilate you, and there's nothing in space".

Drawing people away from the station is absolutely the wrong way to go about things. The focus should always be on what goes on on the station, rather than encouraging people to just fuck off alone/in small groups.

XDTM · Post by **XDTM** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:10 pm #266427

Group space expeditions could be fun, and the loot could be geared to encourage the explorers to come back and share/use the loot on station.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:11 pm #266428

ShadowDimentio wrote:Space exploration is another frontier we could expand on, as currently we went from "nothing is in space" to "space will fucking annihilate you, and there's nothing in space".

As it should be, imo

why am I playing a game focused primarily on player interaction if we're going to encourage people slapping on internals and a space suit and looking for shit in space where you're almost guaranteed to never bump into anyone else?

onleavedontatme · Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:27 pm

Qbopper wrote:I literally had to discourage someone from thinking "allowed by the rules"/"not allowed by the rules" the other day

?

Screemonster · Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:39 pm

Kor wrote:
Qbopper wrote:I literally had to discourage someone from thinking "allowed by the rules"/"not allowed by the rules" the other day
?

I think it's the "I can kill it therefore I must kill it" mindset that's the issue here.

FantasticFwoosh · Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:40 pm

Which is why sybil lowpop with no admins is cancerous.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:01 pm #266446

Kor wrote:
Qbopper wrote:I literally had to discourage someone from thinking "allowed by the rules"/"not allowed by the rules" the other day
?

He was, as the other poster was saying, asking that because he felt the need that since the target may have been valid as they had done X thing, then he had no other option other than to validhunt the fuck out of the guy

I haven't given full context, but I was like "okay so if you were this person you wouldn't even try to talk to them or get someone to help you or LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE"

I see where your edit is coming from but it just strikes me as overly snarky, I didn't give full context about the situation and that's my fault but I'm not sure why you're so dismissive about my post

EDIT: because I'm probably still going to get shit:

I'm not saying that if you know someone has done something bad you can't escalate to killing them or whatever, I'm saying that immediately ahelping the moment you see you're being cloned if someone is "valid" is something that I find really grating

Killing people is part of this game, obviously, but it's more than a little tiring to see people just itching for someone to take something a step to far in order to get their valids

I feel like people will disagree with me no matter what on the topic and I realize it's all preference, but I wish people at least considered things that weren't "he crossed the line, I get to kill him now"

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:03 pm #266447

kor's been becoming more and more oranges
it might be a symptom of burning out

FantasticFwoosh · Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:11 pm

A moment for silence for Kor for promoting revenge valids. I've been given ambigious green light valids before once notably for feeling wronged in ghost roles (a golem), Kor does perpetuate the valid response culture Qbopper does sum up. When you're kind of angry like that its difficult to dig yourself out of petty feelings of revenge or finding a way to edge them out of spite.

> sad thing is it'll probably be the end of Kor's admin career someday if public opinion changes and he loses common support.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:17 pm #266477

I just want it to be made clear that I don't want this to be kor vs qbopper or some shit like that

Like, that goes for me on the forums in general, I know I can sometimes be a little abrasive but I never mean any harm and I for sure don't hold grudges because of disagreements over spess gaem policy discussion/etc.

Post by **oranges** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:59 pm #266519

fuck off dicknuggest, stop derailing the thread with your garbage low RP argument.

Who cares what the playstyle is like, this is about our lack of direction and inability to allow a single person to set the direction.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:03 pm #266524

what if after a feature gets added, no revert/balance PRs by anyone other than the creator for 1-3 week(s) unless said creator drops off the face of the earth during that time

i feel like that idea will lets content creators actually fine tune their work themselves instead of trying to PR their post-launch balance amid 2 revert PRs and 3 more "totally not a revert but makes it useless" prs fighting them

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:04 pm #266526

oranges wrote:fuck off dicknuggest, stop derailing the thread with your garbage low RP argument.

Who cares what the playstyle is like, this is about our lack of direction and inability to allow a single person to set the direction.

is this aimed at me? because if so I mean I guess that's true even if this is rude as shit

if it isn't aimed at me I guess that's true even if it's rude as shit

Post by **oranges** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:06 pm #266530

This isn't about the "what" of depth, this is about why we got here and how we need to get there.

Talking about what is depth is irrelevant.

Also it wasn't aimed at you qbopper just everyone in general.

Hamfam77 · Post by **Hamfam77** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:59 pm #266565

What did lifeweb do so right

FantasticFwoosh · Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:09 pm

Hamfam77 wrote:What did lifeweb do so right

All successful SS13 servers cater to the depraved minorities, CM has all the testosterone military rejects/wannabes, the rest are furries or intense ERPers.

Lifeweb has a map that is traversible (you can climb up a wall/be pushed down a pit so its vertical on top of being a wide z level) intensely detailed and utmost minimalistic (unless you count that doctor who or medieval computers, what the fuck)

Post by **oranges** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:09 pm #266571

same thing, one developer with complete yay/nay and no chance of appeal.

onleavedontatme · Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:35 pm

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... ead#unread

I have posted a basic outline of my grand insane vision please like, comment and subscribe

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:39 pm #266579

Honestly I think you people are being way too pessimistic. Mining went from a puddle to an ocean last year, and Engineering is moving in a very promising direction with the new engine and power management. 2016 was amazing for TG. Personally, I think the best direction would be to make individual tasks a bit more complex to perform, proportionate to the payoff. Routine tasks will feel more rewarding, and be more prone to sabotage (more moving parts means more that can go wrong). Medical is the most in need of a rework. Currently, you dump someone in a sleeper or cryopod and push a button. That's painfully boring and shallow. We have a great surgery system, and the operating theater virtually never gets used. What if bullets had a chance to become embedded and had to be surgically removed? What if severe cuts had to be stitched up? What if traitors sabotaged medical so that people they shot up will die from not being treated? Medical has an incredible amount of potential.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:41 pm #266583

danno wrote:>be me
>coderbus makes me pee my pants
>lead actual successful rebellion against coderbus
>take over one of the two servers
>get bored and fuck off
>come back
>coderbus is the most open and accepting it has ever been
>fellow rebels are now maintainers and shit

and yet people who refuse to enter coderbus or look at the git or anything will still bitch about how evil coderbus is!!!! fight the power!!!! we will topple the coderbus shadow government!!!

I am your MLK analogue and I think you're stupid

I didn't read the thread but this bothered me. This isn't what really happened with NTstation, but it doesn't really matter anymore. Danno can jerk himself off all he wants though, doesn't make it true.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:01 pm #266598

>he's still upset

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:23 pm #266609

NTstation is dear to my heart, I'm not upset at anything, but slandering the history is lame

FantasticFwoosh · Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:44 pm

Luke Cox wrote:Honestly I think you people are being way too pessimistic. Mining went from a puddle to an ocean last year, and Engineering is moving in a very promising direction with the new engine and power management. 2016 was amazing for TG. Personally, I think the best direction would be to make individual tasks a bit more complex to perform, proportionate to the payoff. Routine tasks will feel more rewarding, and be more prone to sabotage (more moving parts means more that can go wrong). Medical is the most in need of a rework. Currently, you dump someone in a sleeper or cryopod and push a button. That's painfully boring and shallow. We have a great surgery system, and the operating theater virtually never gets used. What if bullets had a chance to become embedded and had to be surgically removed? What if severe cuts had to be stitched up? What if traitors sabotaged medical so that people they shot up will die from not being treated? Medical has an incredible amount of potential.

That puddle is only knee deep, though it is wide. I think a new map was a good thing but we bottled it too much (kor seems keen to make that station standard setting though i think that's backing ourselves into a corner we can't dig ourselves out of since space has more possibilty) since there's not much more we can do in that 'Ocean' to actually improve it past the remarkable process we have already. Already the PR's have slowed down immensely

> Its a mining away mission that just had a lot of work done on it (all it is is a bit of dark ground, some boss mobs & loot, ores, lava, chasms associated mining objects, regular mobs & ghost roles all using normal station assets, that's not deep its just a wide spectrum of a detailed environment that people get bored of quickly when they have seen it all)

Which we can make the same argument for asteroid just being a less detailed enviroment but still functional away mission (muh space, with some rocks & a few mobs, junk flies onto it occasionally and loot hidden in caches in the rocks). As to engineering it was a agreed decision to move away from the instantly round destroying engines but the supermatter itself is a static lump of boring because we still collect off it the same way as any other machine (there are some PR's out to amend this by changing how atmos reacts with the supermatter)

As to mining i think a good cycle of a few detailed enviroments so it feels like a populated universe would help that in the same way goon goes into RP depth about its solarium locations (though hopefully not as pretentious in self importance) since with new environments there are new ideas (iamgolfball can play with cold mechanics in their specialty)

Station is a concrete hole still filled in, we need new places to pour idea cement paste.

onleavedontatme · Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:05 pm

space has more possibilty

Space is literally an empty void, that's why it's called space.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:26 pm #266922

come on kor now you're just being willfully obtuse are you not familiar with literally 75% of science fiction

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:38 pm #266927

Is this the thread where I talk about the loss of depth and interaction because everyone starts with literally everything they could ever want to do their job in terms of what maps provide players roundstart?