Lizard species is the worst new feature to be added to this

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:54 pm #26875

game. I'll enumerate the reasons for why I think this:

a) When you select your species as Lizard and you save your character setup, it does not actually save the species.
b) Lizard does not differ from human in any way, except when it comes to AI laws. Lizards should have perks to balance this, like toxin damage resistance and cold resistance.
c) The tail needs to be a third grasping member, giving the Lizards three "hands" to hold things.
d) The tail grows out of the crotch when lizards face north.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:10 pm #26876

We're going to have to be careful about what kind of benefits we'll give them if we go this way. It's going to be very tricky to balance and not end up with one that outshines the rest in the powergaming department.

I don't even think being non-human is much of a disadvantage given they're still under Rule 1 protection.

At the very least I ask that we wait a few weeks for the newness to settle down before discussing buffs/debuffs.

IMO though, I kind of like where they are right now. They're the cheap, under-appreciated, subservient workers to the Human Master Race (by which I mean the Human Corporation, Nanotrasen)

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:11 pm #26877

Scott wrote:game. I'll enumerate the reasons for why I think this:

a) When you select your species as Lizard and you save your character setup, it does not actually save the species..

This is a bug. Minor bugs are not a reason to call an update awful.

Scott wrote:b) Lizard does not differ from human in any way, except when it comes to AI laws. Lizards should have perks to balance this, like toxin damage resistance and cold resistance.

You're telling me an optional race is bad because you don't get to be super special. Maybe people want to roleplay and do their own thing and you don't have to be a lizardman. That being said, what Ikarrus said.

Scott wrote:c) The tail needs to be a third grasping member, giving the Lizards three "hands" to hold things.

This is actually just your second point, with a heavy dose of opinion on something to be added - except you're acting like the fact that they're not tail-snowflakey is a terrible terrible thing.

Scott wrote:d) The tail grows out of the crotch when lizards face north.

This is a spriting flaw. Minor spriting flaws are not a reason to call an update awful.

[youtube]M5QGkOGZubQ[/youtube]

Apsis · Post by **Apsis** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:23 pm #26878

I don't like the horn things. What was wrong with the other default lizardman sprite?

Post by **oranges** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:34 am #26916

I believe they had night vision at first but it was removed for the time being

Could you please give us some time to get over the honeymoon period of lizards before we start playing around with racial bonuses?

Cheers thanks bye

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:08 am #26934

Scott wrote:game. I'll enumerate the reasons for why I think this:

a) When you select your species as Lizard and you save your character setup, it does not actually save the species.
b) Lizard does not differ from human in any way, except when it comes to AI laws. Lizards should have perks to balance this, like toxin damage resistance and cold resistance.
c) The tail needs to be a third grasping member, giving the Lizards three "hands" to hold things.
d) The tail grows out of the crotch when lizards face north.

Are you actually serious?

Species don't need special perks. And they should be like hulks for AI. That's what I think. It's just more fun that way. Nobody forces you to play as a lizard.

Just fix their ears. And some hats don't really align well on their heads (like witch doctor hat).

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 am #26939

Lizards can see one tile further in absolute darkness, but ever since ADVANCED DARKNESS was added that's been mostly a moot point.

Incomptinence · Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:11 am

Lizards are as bad as the players choose to make them. Seen a lot of atrocious asshole behavior and it isn't from the lizards.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm #27039

Incoming wrote:Lizards can see one tile further in absolute darkness, but ever since ADVANCED DARKNESS was added that's been mostly a moot point.

Lizards do not get any special advantages. The only differences are:
-They have tails!
- They cannot have hair.
- They speak with "hisses" instead of "says".
- They have more skin (scale) color choices.
- They have slashes instead of punches.
- They had more 's' letters added when they speak.
- They give lizard meat instead of human meat.

Proof below.

Code: Select all

/datum/species/lizard
	// Reptilian humanoids with scaled skin and tails.
	name = "Lizardperson"
	id = "lizard"
	say_mod = "hisses"
	default_color = "00FF00"
	roundstart = 1
	specflags = list(MUTCOLORS,EYECOLOR,LIPS)
	attack_verb = "slash"
	attack_sound = 'sound/weapons/slash.ogg'
	miss_sound = 'sound/weapons/slashmiss.ogg'
	meat = /obj/item/weapon/reagent_containers/food/snacks/meat/human/mutant/lizard

/datum/species/lizard/handle_speech(message)
	// jesus christ why
	if(copytext(message, 1, 2) != "*")
		message = replacetext(message, "s", stutter("ss"))

Post by **MisterPerson** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:31 pm #27064

It baffles me how there can be this much anger over lizards considering they literally do nothing.

Durkel · Post by **Durkel** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:06 pm #27090

MisterPerson wrote:It baffles me how there can be this much anger over lizards considering they literally do nothing.

That's why we're angry! Damn lizards taking all our jerbs!

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:45 pm #27094

MisterPerson wrote:It baffles me how there can be this much anger over lizards considering they literally do nothing.

Racism, of course. Prison and the internet are the two biggest outlets of it. Greenskins are the new African Americans.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:47 am #27107

I'm perfectly fine with the 'space racism' that comes with being a lizardman, and even in some cases, its fun to arrpee with (as long as they don't go overboard with it). My main problem is as of right now, theres some people going around attacking lizards just because. If they fight back, it usually ends with them calling for the borgs to defend them.

I actually had this happen to me while playing as a lizard atmos tech, getting flat-out gang banged by 3 assistants after the first one threw the starting punch, only for a borg to come to their aid, sedate me, and them attempting to order the borg to flat out kill me on the spot.

This was during a malf round.

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:23 am #27114

I don't like it. I really can't say why. Maybe it has something to do with furries, I dunno.

It was really an an unnecessary change considering all the other stuff we need to improve on. Adding a new race has only added more policy shitflinging.

Post by **oranges** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:47 am #27123

Look lizard is really more of a test to ensure mutantrace datums work correctly than any actual feature filled gameplay

mutant races lets us do cool stuff later down the track.

In fact a lot of recent work in the codebase has been lag improvement and cleaning up a lot of code to make it simpler to add/modify

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:01 am #27124

Being able to pick your race when you join up has been around for a long time. It just wasn't until recently did SoS toggle the config setting.

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:50 am #27147

I see nothing wrong with more choices in this game.

When I'm a borg, it's only when a lizard does something truly and grotesquely harmful to prove they'll harm people in the future that I'll ever consider terminating them. Until then, it's either I follow the AI's direction or treat them as another human with the logic that they are a crewmember who takes the safety and well being of this station as much into consideration as I beep boop do until proven otherwise, and any people willing to neglect them as a fellow crewmember are likely to harm another in the future being deranged and dangerous people. Putting three humans in jail because they attacked a lizardman who attacked them back does as much to keep them from harm as putting the lizard in jail does.

Inversely,

CLOWN JOB IS THE WORST NEW FEATURE ADDED TO THIS

SS13 doesn't need a why. It just needs a few carefully placed 'why nots?'

peoplearestrange · Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:49 am

Funny think is lizzardpeople have been in the code/playable for quite a bit of time, just not choose-able from the character screen, you had to admin request it. It was never a problem then when people would randomly ask for lizardjanitor or lizzardchemist.

I like to think of it exactly like every other character detail, its just aesthetics/padding for RP purposes. Like everything else on a human, age has NO effect on actual game play, race doesn't, having hair or not doesn't. It's all just to create a character you want to play. Why do you need EXTRA perks? Has the non-human AI issue ever ACTUALLY been a problem? (apart from that one lizzardcaust, but yeah...)

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:24 pm #27187

Spoiler: The lizardcaust was pertetrated by a traitor AI. I know because I was the admin at the time.

Giacom · Post by **Giacom** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:21 pm #27263

Humans should always be the best race, that way we don't have 100 players playing lizards.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:16 pm #27317

Giacom wrote:Humans should always be the best race, that way we don't have 100 players playing lizards.

Gia, humans are always the best race no matter what.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:22 pm #27320

Don't lizards have a bit of temp resistance?

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:24 pm #27321

paprika wrote:Don't lizards have a bit of temp resistance?

No. Their differences are purely cosmetic, as proven in the code I posted earlier. They give a unique meat, though.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:42 am #27337

Gun Hog wrote:
paprika wrote:Don't lizards have a bit of temp resistance?
No. Their differences are purely cosmetic, as proven in the code I posted earlier. They give a unique meat, though.

I need to get some exotic meat recipes made so the chef can try to go all octodad on people.

Kuraudo · Post by **Kuraudo** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:34 am #27637

It's a cosmetic addition that gives no added value or gameplay depth.
I'm uneasy with the fact of having another specie on the station. I don't want to wake up one day and realize you can now also play as an elf or dwarf.

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:19 pm #27674

Half of this game is cosmetic addition that gives no added value or gameplay depth.

And if you say it adds LITERALLY nothing to the game, then you haven't played for the past 12 days where people are greytiding against each other instead of specifically against security. At least there are some new jokes and scenarios happening.

Ezel · Post by **Ezel** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:28 pm #27697

Incoming wrote:
Gun Hog wrote:
paprika wrote:Don't lizards have a bit of temp resistance?
No. Their differences are purely cosmetic, as proven in the code I posted earlier. They give a unique meat, though.
I need to get some exotic meat recipes made so the chef can try to go all octodad on people.

Special meat>chef murdering lizards to gib them ai doesnt care cuz.no humans
security pass by Did you murder lizards>yes?>Great than theres more jobs availble

if lizards mostly get janitor cargo jobs
image a lizard captain

i once asked the admins ro be lizard there was several poeple
i asked the captain to be the lizards captain so he did it.so i gathered weapons
changed the ai laws to respect lizards to and started attack on the human race

those where good time

Lumbermancer · Post by **Lumbermancer** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:45 pm #27703

Remove Lizard, you say it's cosmetic now, but it's one step closer to some bullshit like Vox. Lizards should be as they were, available to people at the discretion of badmins. Janitor preferred.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:40 pm #27711

Lumbermancer wrote:Remove Lizard, you say it's cosmetic now, but it's one step closer to some bullshit like Vox. Lizards should be as they were, available to people at the discretion of badmins. Janitor preferred.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

Kuraudo · Post by **Kuraudo** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:14 pm #27728

Cipher3 wrote:
Lumbermancer wrote:Remove Lizard, you say it's cosmetic now, but it's one step closer to some bullshit like Vox. Lizards should be as they were, available to people at the discretion of badmins. Janitor preferred.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

The slippery slope is not a logical fallacy. Functionalism in international relation is based on a slippery slope mechanism. Practical example: The creation of the EU and it's growth.

Konork · Post by **Konork** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:12 pm #27736

Kuraudo wrote:
Cipher3 wrote:
Lumbermancer wrote:Remove Lizard, you say it's cosmetic now, but it's one step closer to some bullshit like Vox. Lizards should be as they were, available to people at the discretion of badmins. Janitor preferred.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
The slippery slope is not a logical fallacy. Functionalism in international relation is based on a slippery slope mechanism. Practical example: The creation of the EU and it's growth.

Slipperly slopes may actually exist, but the fallacy is in assuming that the lizard species will lead to things like the Vox. Even if he wasn't saying that, removing things because they might lead to something unwanted is kind of dumb.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:16 pm #27737

Konork wrote:
Kuraudo wrote:
Cipher3 wrote:
Lumbermancer wrote:Remove Lizard, you say it's cosmetic now, but it's one step closer to some bullshit like Vox. Lizards should be as they were, available to people at the discretion of badmins. Janitor preferred.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
The slippery slope is not a logical fallacy. Functionalism in international relation is based on a slippery slope mechanism. Practical example: The creation of the EU and it's growth.
Slipperly slopes may actually exist, but the fallacy is in assuming that the lizard species will lead to things like the Vox. Even if he wasn't saying that, removing things because they might lead to something unwanted is kind of dumb.

This. ^ ^ ^

Post by **oranges** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:39 am #27754

I'd love to play as a dwarf

why would you not

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:46 am #27769

oranges wrote:I'd love to play as a dwarf

why would you not

Would certainly make the bartender more appreciated if there was a race who's movespeed went to shit if they weren't drunk often enough

Incomptinence · Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:48 am

I would assume no one has done dwarfs because needing new sprites for clothes is a bit hefty.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:49 am #27772

Incomptinence wrote:I would assume no one has done dwarfs because needing new sprites for clothes is a bit hefty.

Yeah anything that requires a sprite of a different height would require a simply hideous amount of sprite work, it'd be akin to asking for fatsprites back.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:11 am #27777

oranges wrote:I'd love to play as a dwarf

why would you not

Seconded.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:13 am #27787

Make elves.

An easy change that can done with fewer pixels than I have fingers.

And trolls, too, pls. Avatar related.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:16 am #27788

Trolls should only be able to wear the gray and/or clown suit.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:30 am #27790

If your going to add more alien species, try and make something more unique than Elves/Dwarves/Goblins.

Incomptinence · Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:33 am

Maybe gollems and their inability to wear certain classes of clothes are a good model for the addition of alt races. I mean idiots seem to want a servile class so bad why not just flat out summon them for needy control freaks.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:52 am #27794

Steelpoint wrote:If your going to add more alien species, try and make something more unique than Elves/Dwarves/Goblins.

Insectoids. Horrible lack of them in vidya these days.

Flypeople don't count. They are horrible mutants and deserve nothing but suffering.

I'm talking giant bipedal ants/mantises

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:39 am #27801

Incomptinence wrote:Maybe gollems and their inability to wear certain classes of clothes are a good model for the addition of alt races. I mean idiots seem to want a servile class so bad why not just flat out summon them for needy control freaks.

I'm still waiting for my golems to get access to hats again.

Kuraudo · Post by **Kuraudo** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:14 am #27821

Konork wrote:
Kuraudo wrote:
Cipher3 wrote:
Lumbermancer wrote:Remove Lizard, you say it's cosmetic now, but it's one step closer to some bullshit like Vox. Lizards should be as they were, available to people at the discretion of badmins. Janitor preferred.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
The slippery slope is not a logical fallacy. Functionalism in international relation is based on a slippery slope mechanism. Practical example: The creation of the EU and it's growth.
Slipperly slopes may actually exist, but the fallacy is in assuming that the lizard species will lead to things like the Vox. Even if he wasn't saying that, removing things because they might lead to something unwanted is kind of dumb.

We accepted wizards, then golems, then fly people, then lizards. So they are definitely not the point A, the starting point on the slippery slope of strange players controlled humanoids being added.
The players can legitimately ask: "What next after this ?"

Post by **Jacquerel** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:04 am #27822

What's weird and fantastic about there being intelligent aliens in a canon which already features intelligent aliens again?
Wizards are dramatically weirder than Lizards, as are Changelings, and Golems.
Flypeople are a pop culture sci-fi reference.

I don't think this can really be plotted onto that proposed slope at all.

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:26 pm #27838

Kuraudo wrote:
Konork wrote:
Kuraudo wrote:
Cipher3 wrote:
Lumbermancer wrote:Remove Lizard, you say it's cosmetic now, but it's one step closer to some bullshit like Vox. Lizards should be as they were, available to people at the discretion of badmins. Janitor preferred.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
The slippery slope is not a logical fallacy. Functionalism in international relation is based on a slippery slope mechanism. Practical example: The creation of the EU and it's growth.
Slipperly slopes may actually exist, but the fallacy is in assuming that the lizard species will lead to things like the Vox. Even if he wasn't saying that, removing things because they might lead to something unwanted is kind of dumb.
We accepted wizards, then golems, then fly people, then lizards. So they are definitely not the point A, the starting point on the slippery slope of strange players controlled humanoids being added.
The players can legitimately ask: "What next after this ?"

Who cares and why should it matter? If someone's willing to put the work in that doesn't force me to put in any effort whatsoever so some person across station can get their SSSSSS-SSSSSS hissing related kicks or slashy noise when they attack someone, why the fuck would I tell them no or discourage it?

Who the fuck cares if there's a slippery slope to something? I don't know what Vox is and I don't give a flying fuck. Maybe it doesn't add much to the game that these people are getting tails and horns and green skin, but it takes away much, much less from the game if anything at all.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:32 pm #27841

All I know about the Vox is that they are antagonists on Baystation or somewhere.

I fail to see any real negative in the addition of non-human races as playable characters. If we are concerned about the de-emphasis on humans we can simply introduce restrictions on certain role to humans only, such as my earlier suggestion on forcing Sec/Command to be human only.

Ezel · Post by **Ezel** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:42 pm #27853

Steelpoint wrote:All I know about the Vox is that they are antagonists on Baystation or somewhere.

I fail to see any real negative in the addition of non-human races as playable characters. If we are concerned about the de-emphasis on humans we can simply introduce restrictions on certain role to humans only, such as my earlier suggestion on forcing Sec/Command to be human only.

^official bay station
>unofficial bay station servers it's a choosable race for rp
>vox mode vox crewmembers + vox raiders =rip vox
That's why you can't make things available like as a example there is a wizard job and be like wizard in a wizard round rip you

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:06 pm #27864

Ezel wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:All I know about the Vox is that they are antagonists on Baystation or somewhere.

I fail to see any real negative in the addition of non-human races as playable characters. If we are concerned about the de-emphasis on humans we can simply introduce restrictions on certain role to humans only, such as my earlier suggestion on forcing Sec/Command to be human only.
^official bay station
>unofficial bay station servers it's a choosable race for rp
>vox mode vox crewmembers + vox raiders =rip vox
That's why you can't make things available like as a example there is a wizard job and be like wizard in a wizard round rip you

Spoiler:

By unofficial you mean knockoff servers using Baycode. And that's literally entirely irrelevant. What you're saying is that Lizardpeople are going to lead to Vox races and Vox gamemode and that's gonna get non-antag Vox killed and then making a comparison to a station wizard job (wut) and thusly we should not have lizardpeople because this could end up like when antags are the same species as nonantags? There's literally no logical chain of progression in Lizardpeople = a wizard station job that gets lynched every wizard round.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:16 pm #27872

Cipher3 wrote:
Ezel wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:All I know about the Vox is that they are antagonists on Baystation or somewhere.

I fail to see any real negative in the addition of non-human races as playable characters. If we are concerned about the de-emphasis on humans we can simply introduce restrictions on certain role to humans only, such as my earlier suggestion on forcing Sec/Command to be human only.
^official bay station
>unofficial bay station servers it's a choosable race for rp
>vox mode vox crewmembers + vox raiders =rip vox
That's why you can't make things available like as a example there is a wizard job and be like wizard in a wizard round rip you

Spoiler:
Why do you never have punctuation?
By unofficial you mean knockoff servers using Baycode. And that's literally entirely irrelevant. What you're saying is that Lizardpeople are going to lead to Vox races and Vox gamemode and that's gonna get non-antag Vox killed and then making a comparison to a station wizard job (wut) and thusly we should not have lizardpeople because this could end up like when antags are the same species as nonantags? There's literally no logical chain of progression in Lizardpeople = a wizard station job that gets lynched every wizard round.

Never not lynch lizards apparently. v0v