[MrGlasses91] Space-Mime Continuum - permabrigged unfairly

[Bob Dobbington]

Byond account and character name: Bob Dobbington [Space-Mime Continuum]
Admin: MrGlasses91
Time incident occured: 10:00 PM PST
Detailed summary: As bored mime, decided to steal the (inoperable without admin intervention) nuke from the Vault. HoS got the nuke back, we ended up speaking later in arrivals, during which the HoS basically told me not to do it again and we parted peaceably. Later on, Norman Phelps (Skyglazer) the Detective comes across me in Central Primary Hallway, pulls out his revolver, shoots several other people trying to shoot me, whereafter I giggle and run the other way as he reloads. I come upon him again a minute later and he's got Beepsky after me. I get dragged around in cuffs, unable to communicate, for about five minutes or so, whereupon he strips and permabrigs me. I hadn't committed any crimes between speaking to the HoS and being set upon by the Detective. In adminhelps, MrGlasses91 ruled this IC. I'm appealing in admin complaints because this is a fairly blatant rule 1 violation, and I feel it reflects a fairly heavy pro-security bias (or at any rate some kind of bias) in the admin who made the decision to sanction completely ruining my round for a harmless prank. Round log from my perspective: http://privatepaste.com/4770f525a5

[Hibbles]

I feel somewhat conflicted about this.

One the one hand, nuclear bomb. IC speaking, that should be all the reason somebody needs to put you in Space Guantanamo for ever.

On the other hand, this seems a rather clear and blatant example of 'lol i brig u because i can lololol'. I know most of the time I've seen the crew treat that bomb like a huge paperweight.

I honestly dunno how to feel.

[MrGlasses]

I'll keep this short and simple.

I see the Admin help 'PM to-Admins: Ask the detective why he's arresting me'
And promptly jump over to see what's up. I see the mime in cuffs with the detective pulling him in the brig. Curious myself I PM the detective asking him why the mime is being arrested and brought to the brig.

[00:44:17]ADMIN: PM: MrGlasses91/(Norman Phelps): Hey, can I ask why you're arresting the mime?
[00:44:44]ADMIN: PM: (Norman Phelps)->MrGlasses91: Sure you can, breaking into the vault, stealing the nuke. It was beepsky that got her anyways.

Fair enough? I leave it from there, expecting Bob to get a little bit of time in the brig? A short bit later I get another PM....aaaand the mime is in perma. After going back and forth a bit with both sides, the detective ends up trying to get confirmation to permabrig the mime from the HoS who doesn't respond, and then the captain...
"[00:53:20]PDA: Norman Phelps (PDA: PDA-Norman Phelps (Detective)) sent "I permabrigged the mime for stealing the nuke and breaking into the vault and such, that cool with you?" to PDA-Bones McGee (Captain)
[00:53:30]PDA: Bones McGee (PDA: PDA-Bones McGee (Captain)) sent "Sounds good to me" to PDA-Norman Phelps (Detective)"

From an IC point of view, this is completely valid for somebody in a security position to do. From an OOC point of view, this is a douche thing to do to the mime. As it was an IC issue though, I kept it as that, an IC issue. However, I did want to try and give the mime somewhat of a chance, and forced a prison break event. If you don't know what a prison break event is...it unlocks the brig, opens all of the doors and lockers. You had a perfect opportunity to just leave the brig.
[01:00:53]ADMIN: MrGlasses91 has triggered an event. (Prison Break)

On both sides, the detectives and the mime's, this was kind of shitty.

[Saegrimr]

If we're going to pretend we're even trying to be an RP server, you shouldn't expect people to just go "A nuke? Yeah no big deal." and let whoever run off with it. Or are we gonna go down that road of "Security shouldn't arrest me for X because its not Y round type!"

[Bob Dobbington]

Rule 1 trumps roleplay, I thought (or else I could roleplay a paranoid that murders, say, overzealous detectives). There's no way to activate the station nuke short of admin intervention. In addition, as mime, I was completely unable to communicate whatsoever from the moment Beepsky had the cuffs on until several minutes after. Which is a continual problem I have playing mime, security stuncuffing me for whatever and then not uncuffing me for long periods of time. This guy presumably knew that I was not a threat, was non-antag, and removed me from the round in a dickish and unnecessary way. It seems like a pretty clear-cut Rule 1 violation, especially in light of the usual cavalier treatment of the nuke by station crew. Even if he was choosing to RP as if the nuke was harmful, that doesn't trump that OOC he knew I was nonharmful and chose to end my round anyway as non-antag.

[Saegrimr]

There's no way to activate the station nuke short of admin intervention.

And that's metagaming, another rule.

I was completely unable to communicate whatsoever from the moment Beepsky had the cuffs on until several minutes after. Which is a continual problem I have playing mime

Stop playing mime if you can't handle the silence, or break your oath. Theres a button that lets you do it without losing your mime power that never gets used.

[Bob Dobbington]

I can't metagame in calling a player out for an OOC violation. Rule 1 does not pertain to IC justifications. OOC, the detective knew I was not a threat. OOC, he was a dick anyway. He was a dick IC too, but you're allowed to be a dick IC, as long as you don't cross certain lines like taking people out of the round as non-antag.

[Antonkr]

I tbh can agree with permabrig being too much. Nuke sounds fancy on paper but I dont see a reason to perma someone over it ESPECIALLY after the HoS let the person go. I dont think anyone needs be punished, since capt did give permission for it but I dont agree that permabrig was in any sense fair.

[Saegrimr]

Its one of those tough lines to draw, OOC you know that nothing can be done with the nuke, but IC that thing is in a vault for a reason. IC you should be punished SEVERELY for multiple reasons. Just like wearing a Nuke Ops hardsuit you stole off a guy has the very real chance of someone dropping your ass on the spot, though this for slightly different reasons.

I agree perma is too harsh but to say you shouldn't expect it is wrong.

[Pandarsenic]

If you can justify perma IC to be shitty OoC, why is CDB still permabanned from security and command?

Simple: Because brigging someone because "Lelvalid" for the OoC desire to ruin a person's round is against Rule 1.

[CreationPro]

Yeah, let's just throw all remnants of our shoddy RP out the window and punish sec for permabrigging mimes who steal nuclear bombs.

[Pandarsenic]

Yeah, let's just throw all remnants of our shoddy RP out the window and punish sec for permabrigging mimes who steal nuclear bombs.

Do you really think that it was about the RP and not about ruining the mime's round because he could?

[MrGlasses]

Like I said, it was a justified IC action but shitty to do OOC, which is also why I forced the Prison Break event, literally opening the doors to the brig. Mr. Mime had the chance to just walk out...

[Bob Dobbington]

I think you really, really have to stretch to assume that the guy who permabrigged me did it for RP reasons. The guy who permabrigged me was a detective. After cuffing me, he ran around with me in cuffs for a while, and then permabrigged me without ever asking me so much as a single question. If we're using RP to justify his actions, why was I not interrogated? Why was the Detective not interested in WHY I wanted to blow up the station with a nuclear weapon? Seems pretty mysterious. Like, the only "RP" here is the Detective pretending the nuke is dangerous so he could validhunt. The detective wasn't roleplaying in the first place. If the guy had RPd it out properly, it would have likely been a much more fun round. "WHO DO YOU WORK FOR MIME" "..." "WHERE IS THE TARGET" "..." That's not what happened. Detective was not interested in solving the mystery of why I had the nuke, he was interested in permabrigging me because he could.

Regarding the prison break: I was in the middle of reading and responding to ahelps when you buttoned. In addition, had I left, I would have left without any of my stuff, set to arrest, without so much as a fucking ID card, and I'd be right back in perma only now it's justified because I broke out. Like, I keep feeling that if I were to reverse this and randomly murder the Detective as Mime because he does something harmless I don't like, there wouldn't be nearly as much hand-wringing over whether that was in line with my RP vision of artistic silence and I would almost certainly eat a ban. RP isn't a defense to Rule 1 anyway, but even if it were this guy wasn't RPing in the first place.

[Bob Dobbington]

I was completely unable to communicate whatsoever from the moment Beepsky had the cuffs on until several minutes after. Which is a continual problem I have playing mime

Stop playing mime if you can't handle the silence, or break your oath. Theres a button that lets you do it without losing your mime power that never gets used.

Why is it that I, playing a mime, get the git gud bullshit but Security isn't expected to do their job correctly? It's possible and in fact pretty easy to hold a prisoner in tempbrig safely without bucklecuffing him to a bed. If the Detective were following standard operating procedure, I should have been put in a tempbrig cell, left uncuffed, and been given access to either my PDA or pen and paper so I could communicate. One message to the HoS could have solved this. Instead the Detective on his own initiative went out of his way to get me permabrigged.

[MrGlasses]

Aside from accusing me of having a bias favoring security, what exactly are you trying to get out of this complaint? You might have better luck making a policy discussion thread.

[CreationPro]

That's the kind of attitude that I hate. You steal the nuke because "lelmime", you get permabrigged because "fuck you mime you nuke-stealing fuck" and it somehow devolves into a ban request/admin complaint. It's not enjoyable for neither parties.

[Bob Dobbington]

Aside from accusing me of having a bias favoring security, what exactly are you trying to get out of this complaint? You might have better luck making a policy discussion thread.

Honestly I could give a fuck if dude gets banned at this point or even if mrglasses gets slapped, I just want to stop having my round as mime ruined because sec leaves me fucking cuffed forever and more generally I'm tired of sec being massive shits and getting away with it. A lot of these people seem to really enjoy totally ruining other peoples' rounds for trivial reasons, and it sucks to see admins defending that behavior because "muh immersions." RP has never been a defense to Rule 1 stuff and I think it should stay that way.

[MrGlasses]

I'm sticking by my decision that it was an IC issue. Yes, it was shitty, and yes, it was close to breaking rule 1. I'm not, however, going to ban someone or otherwise take action over an IC issue, which it was. I did give you a way out, and you either missed it or refused to acknowledged it. If I see a mime being brigged with it's cuffs on, or it gets ahelped, I'll probably look into it like I did here and act accordingly, spawning them some form of communication for them. If someone is premabrigged for no actual reason, I will take action, as I have done before and continue to do.

I've made a note of what happened on the detective, and if something similar happens in the future, further action will be taken.

[scaredofshadows]

I'm sticking by my decision that it was an IC issue. Yes, it was shitty, and yes, it was close to breaking rule 1. I'm not, however, going to ban someone or otherwise take action over an IC issue, which it was. I did give you a way out, and you either missed it or refused to acknowledged it. If I see a mime being brigged with it's cuffs on, or it gets ahelped, I'll probably look into it like I did here and act accordingly, spawning them some form of communication for them. If someone is premabrigged for no actual reason, I will take action, as I have done before and continue to do.

I've made a note of what happened on the detective, and if something similar happens in the future, further action will be taken.

I agree with how you handled this and have nothing further to add.

[peoplearestrange]

Considering this resolved.
Please PM me if this was done in error.