Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Should we require the HoP to adhere to a code of conduct?

Poll ended at Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:26 pm

Yes, as a Head of Staff the HoP should be focused on helping the station.
47
23%
Yes, as a Head of Staff the HoP should be focused on helping the station.
47
23%
Yes, as a Head of Staff the HoP should be focused on helping the station.
47
23%
No, the HoP should be free to give out access and assign jobs however they wish.
20
10%
No, the HoP should be free to give out access and assign jobs however they wish.
20
10%
No, the HoP should be free to give out access and assign jobs however they wish.
20
10%
 
Total votes: 201

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Timbrewolf
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Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Timbrewolf » #40340

Bottom post of the previous page:

I started a discussion in secret adminbus subforum centered around our lax standards for behavior and job conduct for our Heads of Personnel.

It boils down to this: A HoP exercises a lot of authority over the station and can very easily throw a wrench into other departments, or give Security hordes of new trespassers to chase after. We don't currently hold them accountable for anything anyone does with the access they've been granted, nor do we require them to confer with other heads of staff before giving people access to their areas. Since I've been back I've witnessed a lot of HoP behavior I think detracts from the game, and I've seen more than enough cries in OOC of "Why isn't this guy Jobbanned?" to think something should change.

I'd like to conduct a survey of the playerbase to make sure it's a sentiment mirrored in the playerbase as well before we get too far along in talking about how we can deal with it.

A simple yes/no vote is fine. Please don't post "Oh yeah SO AND SO is a terrible asshole ban he". I don't want this to devolve into a bunch of ad hom attacks and defenses. Thank you.
Last edited by Timbrewolf on Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Steelpoint » #40593

In my opinion the HoP has the privilege of being able to assign jobs to other heads of staff's departments on their behalf with their blessing. Heads of Staff have full control over their department, including incoming employees.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Raven776 » #40602

Lo6a4evskiy wrote: Let me provide you with an example. Once I had a round as HoP where miners wanted R&D access, because RD wouldn't cooperate with them and they just wanted their drills and shit. RD just yelled at me to not give them access. I gave them access anyway. RD yelled, but miners just got their shit and went to their mining duties. There, problem solved. And that's not an exception from the rules, it's how it should be. Ask heads, sure, but ultimately HoP should decide what's best.

Most of the times heads don't even answer or don't care from my experience. It's just some heads that scream "RESPECT MAI AUTHORATEE" all the time.
No, this is when you ask the captain.

If there is no captain, then you're captain.

Congratulations, you've asked the captain in that case.

Otherwise, don't give them R&D access.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Malkevin » #40604

Ikarrus wrote:
Malkevin wrote:For a start, we could reimplement that hop office/human resources office map change I made ages ago, one of the large problems with hops is that they're in a room that no one but them and the captain has access too.
Seeing how all heads can use the identification console now, we could convert that space for all heads to use. Just give the HoP an actual office this time instead of stuffing him into a closet-like office space to spite them.
It wasn't a closet by its final iteration though...

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Timbrewolf » #40614

Lo6a4evskiy wrote: Let me provide you with an example. Once I had a round as HoP where miners wanted R&D access, because RD wouldn't cooperate with them and they just wanted their drills and shit. RD just yelled at me to not give them access. I gave them access anyway. RD yelled, but miners just got their shit and went to their mining duties. There, problem solved. And that's not an exception from the rules, it's how it should be. Ask heads, sure, but ultimately HoP should decide what's best.
You should've been demoted and brigged for that. You basically assisted a bunch of miners in breaking into R&D and then stealing stuff. While it sounds like the RD was likely being shit, you should've talked to the Captain about making him give your miners some equipment in exchange for the materials...because that's a Captain decision and not a "fuck you I'm giving my guys access to your department dealwithit" decision.

...and this is why the HoP should be looked at a little more stringently, because there are a lot of players in that role who believe they're basically the second Captain and it's okay for them to do that.

It was mentioned before in this thread but seriously look at this:

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Chain_of_Command

See how the HoP is on the same level as the other heads?

See how he has no authority over the people under them?

I think that's pretty open and shut just like that.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by leibniz » #40617

An0n3 wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote: Let me provide you with an example. Once I had a round as HoP where miners wanted R&D access, because RD wouldn't cooperate with them and they just wanted their drills and shit. RD just yelled at me to not give them access. I gave them access anyway. RD yelled, but miners just got their shit and went to their mining duties. There, problem solved. And that's not an exception from the rules, it's how it should be. Ask heads, sure, but ultimately HoP should decide what's best.
You should've been demoted and brigged for that. You basically assisted a bunch of miners in breaking into R&D and then stealing stuff. While it sounds like the RD was likely being shit, you should've talked to the Captain about making him give your miners some equipment in exchange for the materials...because that's a Captain decision and not a "fuck you I'm giving my guys access to your department dealwithit" decision.

...and this is why the HoP should be looked at a little more stringently, because there are a lot of players in that role who believe they're basically the second Captain and it's okay for them to do that.

It was mentioned before in this thread but seriously look at this:

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Chain_of_Command

See how the HoP is on the same level as the other heads?

See how he has no authority over the people under them?

I think that's pretty open and shut just like that.
Or the RD should have been demoted, this is kind of a grey area.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Timbrewolf » #40619

leibniz wrote:Or the RD should have been demoted, this is kind of a grey area.
If that's what the Captain wanted. Shame the HoP didn't think to stop and ask him.

This would be like the HoS opening the door to the HoP desk to let his whole sec force in to stun and cuff the HoP while they all give themselves maint access, because the HoP was being a big jerk and wouldn't give it to them.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Arete » #40621

If the HoP's freedom of choice when using his ID console is restricted to his own department, and he's required to always be on hand to take care of job changes, then the vast majority of his time and effort are going to be spent following other people's orders. Even sec officers have more freedom to choose how to do their job. It doesn't seem like good design to put a player into that role.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by cedarbridge » #40623

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:RD can detain and remove access from anyone assigned to science without proper notification and authorization.
Uh, no, actually heads cannot demote people for no reason, that's really just being a dick. And there is no difference between someone joining from lobby or someone who got the job after randomly getting assistant.
Except possession of access has never been the standard against trespassing. If I didn't not sign off on a new scientist and the HoP just decided we needed a bomb maker and sent a greyshirt over with access and a new ID title and I catch this new guy in toxins or whatever, I'm definitely detaining them for trespassing. I'm then calling the captain to deal with the HoP. I like Steelpoint's wording on this matter a lot. The HoP assigns new assignments with the blessing and/or request of the head of that department. The only department he doesn't have that obligation to verify first is his department, service.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by bandit » #40624

An0n3 wrote:You should've been demoted and brigged for that. You basically assisted a bunch of miners in breaking into R&D and then stealing stuff. While it sounds like the RD was likely being shit, you should've talked to the Captain about making him give your miners some equipment in exchange for the materials...because that's a Captain decision and not a "fuck you I'm giving my guys access to your department dealwithit" decision.

...and this is why the HoP should be looked at a little more stringently, because there are a lot of players in that role who believe they're basically the second Captain and it's okay for them to do that.
The fuck? No. If the RD is being shit, the HoP has the right to ease that shittiness for other players. It is a case of "don't be a dick" and additionally "don't make other people's rounds unnecessarily difficult because you want to be a prima donna." If people abided by this guideline -- this includes people asking for access, people OKing access and people giving out access -- 3/4 of the problems with HoP would be solved instantly.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by bandit » #40633

>implying bombing is remotely comparable to allowing miners to have drills
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by cedarbridge » #40639

More to the point, encouraging the miners to trespass is shitty behavior with a stated purpose of "easing the shittiness" of the RD. Which is ironic, because I'm just seeing two piles of shit stacked up and compared. Again, access is not a pass to legal entry. In this case, the HoP granted two miners illegal access to R&D and encouraged them to trespass because the RD wanted to deny them entry. The HoP went entirely outside his jurisdiction to encourage and enable illegal behavior and wants to blame the infringed party for it. Feelings about the RD not providing the miners their tools in the first place, the HoP is entirely out of line and should have been reprimanded (IC).
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by bandit » #40655

If the HoP does not have the authority to give out legal access, then his job is worthless. Access, and who has "legal" access, is the jurisdiction of the HoP, barring special cases like promotions to security and head of staff. A miner who has done his job and contributed to the round is entirely within his rights to have a drill. It is more reasonable for that miner to have R&D access -- assuming they do not abuse it -- than for that miner to be denied it. A more ideal solution would be for the RD to suck it up and make the damn drill already, but this scenario has passed the point of being ideal.

The fact that you brought up bombing is fucking ridiculous. A better analogy would be the HoP being shit by refusing to promote a research assistant the RD has okayed, and the RD allowing them to tailgate or ask the AI to open doors. It would still technically be "trespassing," but Rule One takes precedence over space law.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Malkevin » #40681

Inviting someone into your home doesn't mean you can then enact Castle Law and shoot them for 'trespassing', but they're not trespassing if you invited them in.

And yeah, giving a group of dudes access without the heads permission, especially after he's denied them stuff, is over stepping the bounds the HoP's authority.
Its weird that an RD will refuse to give miners their drills after the miners have given science resources, so I'm betting there's more to that story.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by cedarbridge » #40718

bandit wrote:If the HoP does not have the authority to give out legal access, then his job is worthless. Access, and who has "legal" access, is the jurisdiction of the HoP, barring special cases like promotions to security and head of staff. A miner who has done his job and contributed to the round is entirely within his rights to have a drill. It is more reasonable for that miner to have R&D access -- assuming they do not abuse it -- than for that miner to be denied it. A more ideal solution would be for the RD to suck it up and make the damn drill already, but this scenario has passed the point of being ideal.

The fact that you brought up bombing is fucking ridiculous. A better analogy would be the HoP being shit by refusing to promote a research assistant the RD has okayed, and the RD allowing them to tailgate or ask the AI to open doors. It would still technically be "trespassing," but Rule One takes precedence over space law.
Lets try this one, and see if you follow along.

If the HoP gives himself armory access and walks into the armory, is he trespassing or committing some other crime?
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by bandit » #40721

Under normal circumstances, yes.

However, if it is a blob round (for example) and the HoS refuses to give out the guns and riot gear in the armory, the HoP is within his rights to get them himself, in order to make the round less shit for everybody else. Technically speaking, it would be "trespassing," however that is a meaningless technicality as one choice massively reduces the amount of dickish behavior people experience.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Kangaraptor » #40725

bandit wrote:Under normal circumstances, yes.

However, if it is a blob round (for example) and the HoS refuses to give out the guns and riot gear in the armory, the HoP is within his rights to get them himself, in order to make the round less shit for everybody else. Technically speaking, it would be "trespassing," however that is a meaningless technicality as one choice massively reduces the amount of dickish behavior people experience.
At that point the HoS would be the one violating the law, not the HoP. Dereliction of duty and gross negligence. Because it's an emergency (and a blob is only second to, what, nuke ops?) the lawbook is basically thrown out the window. If you spend your time wanking over 'muh law' when the station is about to be eaten, you won't have much longer left to do so.

edit: that's neither here nor there, though; the fact is that the HoP shouldn't be wantonly handing out access unless a) they have authorization from the relevant department head(s) or b) it's a station-ending emergency.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by cedarbridge » #40751

bandit wrote:Under normal circumstances, yes.

However, if it is a blob round (for example) and the HoS refuses to give out the guns and riot gear in the armory, the HoP is within his rights to get them himself, in order to make the round less shit for everybody else. Technically speaking, it would be "trespassing," however that is a meaningless technicality as one choice massively reduces the amount of dickish behavior people experience.
You're adding qualifiers to weasel around what you've already admitted to be true. The HoP does not produce "legal" access simply by adding it to an ID card. The access is just that. Access. It holds no weight or legal protection unless it was granted with the blessing of the department where it belongs. Thus, a HoP (without any special qualifying bullshit like blobs etc) granting access to himself or somebody else to a department or area where the HoP does not have jurisdiction and without approval by the head of that department is trespassing or aiding/enabling trespassing. You can say its "reducing dickish behavior" in whatever special cases you'd like to name, but its still out of line and not in line with the job description. You're not the captain and you're not the boss's boss outside of cargo. If there's a conflict with another head you consult the captain or deal directly with the head. Anything else is shit justified by supposed shit.

This also means that security would be within their power to arrest all 3 (HoP and both miners) for trespass, accessory in fact to trespass, theft or grand theft, and the HoP gets an extra charge for abuse of position probably worthy of demotion if the captain sees it that way. The RD would probably have to answer to the captain as well to why they refused the request the miners made in the first place but what the RD chooses to do in their department is not the business of the HoP as a matter of fact.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Raven776 » #40753

bandit wrote:If the HoP does not have the authority to give out legal access, then his job is worthless. Access, and who has "legal" access, is the jurisdiction of the HoP, barring special cases like promotions to security and head of staff. A miner who has done his job and contributed to the round is entirely within his rights to have a drill. It is more reasonable for that miner to have R&D access -- assuming they do not abuse it -- than for that miner to be denied it. A more ideal solution would be for the RD to suck it up and make the damn drill already, but this scenario has passed the point of being ideal.

The fact that you brought up bombing is fucking ridiculous. A better analogy would be the HoP being shit by refusing to promote a research assistant the RD has okayed, and the RD allowing them to tailgate or ask the AI to open doors. It would still technically be "trespassing," but Rule One takes precedence over space law.
I'm a man who sells keys.

Keys are very valuable, they let you into places and houses. Everyone wants more keys.

Some people want to get into the store, it's locked. The owner of the store wants it to stay locked.

I give these men keys. It's not my house, but I sell the keys.

The reason commands have a radio system all for them is so the HoP can at least give a small shout out to the department head before promoting someone under them. If they say no, it's no. If they say yes, you can sell them their keys. The HoP is an access giver and a paper stamper, he never actually gives someone a job unless it's a service or cargo job.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Lovecraft » #40756

I wrote a super long post for this thread because Head of Personnel is a job I really love, it's my favorite job, but I realized I can boil it down by saying a few simple sentences.
The job is fun, and not very hard.
The hardest part is learning when to tell someone no.
If I give someone access without informing the Head of Staff and the person uses the access for traitoring, the blame should fall on me in-character.
If I give someone access when I did inform the Head of Staff, it's not just my fault.

I have given out all access, Security Access, Engineering Access, and things of that nature to people who had no right to it hundreds of times, and it almost never came back to bite me in a way that required Admins. No one to my knowledge was killed, nothing bad happened, ect.
Likewise, I have shunned people who ask for simple requests like maintenance well over a thousand times, and more often than not I'll get killed/grudge'd later in the round for doing that.

I have no idea where I was going with this.
I just like playing Head of Personnel.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Lo6a4evskiy » #40758

An0n3 wrote:You basically assisted a bunch of miners in breaking into R&D and then stealing stuff.
CE basically broke in when hacked an airlock to get into captain's office and fix hull breach. Arrest him for basically major B&E then?
An0n3 wrote:While it sounds like the RD was likely being shit, you should've talked to the Captain about making him give your miners some equipment in exchange for the materials...because that's a Captain decision and not a "fuck you I'm giving my guys access to your department dealwithit" decision.
Oh yeah and HoS has to ask captain before arresting people (heads) for crimes.

Seriously, what the fuck, why are you trying to make it so HoP is literally there to press buttons he's told to press. No, ID console is his genetics, his R&D, his singularity, his armory, for God's sake.

And finally, the point that nobody commented on:

What is the difference between people who join from the lobby and people who HoP assigns even though you don't know anything about either and either can equally likely end up shitheads? Why should you not want people assigned so badly and why you don't ask to close slots in that case (which I've never seen happen)?
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Raven776 » #40760

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
An0n3 wrote:You basically assisted a bunch of miners in breaking into R&D and then stealing stuff.
CE basically broke in when hacked an airlock to get into captain's office and fix hull breach. Arrest him for basically major B&E then?
An0n3 wrote:While it sounds like the RD was likely being shit, you should've talked to the Captain about making him give your miners some equipment in exchange for the materials...because that's a Captain decision and not a "fuck you I'm giving my guys access to your department dealwithit" decision.
Oh yeah and HoS has to ask captain before arresting people (heads) for crimes.

Seriously, what the fuck, why are you trying to make it so HoP is literally there to press buttons he's told to press. No, ID console is his genetics, his R&D, his singularity, his armory, for God's sake.

And finally, the point that nobody commented on:

What is the difference between people who join from the lobby and people who HoP assigns even though you don't know anything about either and either can equally likely end up shitheads? Why should you not want people assigned so badly and why you don't ask to close slots in that case (which I've never seen happen)?
The HoS should talk to the captain after detaining a fellow Head. Hell, the HoS should run any major events by the captain in general. And the HoS should tell other heads when he arrests any of their subordinates and why, or at least when something notable happens along those lines.

Communication is important and great.

As far as the last one goes, it's because we make at least a passable attempt at appearing to care about roleplay.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Lo6a4evskiy » #40761

Well, HoP SHOULD talk to heads when giving people access. But it's not required to the point of admin intervention or, god forbid, demotion. That's what I'm talking about, yup.
Raven776 wrote:As far as the last one goes, it's because we make at least a passable attempt at appearing to care about roleplay.
You're denying a job. Some player wanted that job. I don't really see what kind of roleplay is that, either.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Raven776 » #40765

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Well, HoP SHOULD talk to heads when giving people access. But it's not required to the point of admin intervention or, god forbid, demotion. That's what I'm talking about, yup.
Raven776 wrote:As far as the last one goes, it's because we make at least a passable attempt at appearing to care about roleplay.
You're denying a job. Some player wanted that job. I don't really see what kind of roleplay is that, either.
You're making a passable attempt to pretend that someone who joins as an assistant is an assistant and not a guy sitting behind a computer playing as one.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Incomptinence » #40766

I think the HoP should be expected to ask other heads before re-assigning people. A little margin of carelessness should be allowed, you could forget comms could go down. The issue isn't not being asked once in a while the issue is people who never ask AT ALL, these hops are basically the long arm of the grief.

Increasing job slots should be fine though, sec jobs come implanted and each to their position is legitimate they brought the right outfit etc for everyone. Clowns have never had a license to grief here, to their benefit because such policies are dumb ideas. Requiring the head of personnel to judge people unworthy before they join the game is pretty daft and the cooldown is pretty strict on slot manipulation. If someone joins a position and can't handle it just because they have numbers it is basically the tider mentality and you should probably ban them.

As head of supply all supply shortages due to too many people in a job are the HoP's responsibility I do think he should have some obligation to supply the crew surplus he can create.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Lo6a4evskiy » #40773

Raven776 wrote:You're making a passable attempt to pretend that someone who joins as an assistant is an assistant and not a guy sitting behind a computer playing as one.
Oh yeah and doctors cannot hack doors. So much fun we are having with that approach.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Raven776 » #40794

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Raven776 wrote:You're making a passable attempt to pretend that someone who joins as an assistant is an assistant and not a guy sitting behind a computer playing as one.
Oh yeah and doctors cannot hack doors. So much fun we are having with that approach.
I said passable not perfect.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by CocaneStyle » #40796

Here is what I think.

The Head of Personal should be 2nd in command and above every head except the HoS who answers directly to the captain, do that and then it would be fair to hold him to a higher standard.
Because right now the stick is too short for the HoP to not get the short end of it.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Antonkr » #40807

CocaneStyle wrote:Here is what I think.

The Head of Personal should be 2nd in command and above every head except the HoS who answers directly to the captain, do that and then it would be fair to hold him to a higher standard.
Because right now the stick is too short for the HoP to not get the short end of it.
^
I honestly agree with even making the HoP simply in charge of employment altogether. Let him hire/reassign people as he wishes (to an extent of him not being a dick) and then we can talk about enforcing stronger rules. Imo simply saying and enforcing more rules on a position that is kinda lax wont really help much.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Apsis » #40813

CocaneStyle wrote:Here is what I think.

The Head of Personal should be 2nd in command and above every head except the HoS who answers directly to the captain, do that and then it would be fair to hold him to a higher standard.
Because right now the stick is too short for the HoP to not get the short end of it.
I also agree with this. If you wanna make the HoP have higher standards, give the HoP a higher position. In fact, I already play HoP like this. Run things by the HoS (basically asking if he wants potential antags or not), and the other heads are at mercy of already open job slots.

Also, If a HoP messes up then IC punishments should follow. If he's just griefing then the admins can step in.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by omnitricks » #40825

HoPs are fine as they are. Like someone else pointed out there is going to be unhappy people whether or not you give out access.

Sometimes I ask Heads as a formality before adding people into their department. Especially when it is already half full or all the way full. If not I'll assign people and they better like it. Its no difference if someone else joins to get assigned to the job or if they want a transfer because they don't like their job/stuck as assistant somehow. The only exception I make is officers where I escort them to the brig to get implanted/have someone know they are new.

The only times I ever ask for stamps or signatures is when I'm feeling like a dick. A nice way of saying you probably aren't getting any access.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by cedarbridge » #40826

Incomptinence wrote: Increasing job slots should be fine though, sec jobs come implanted and each to their position is legitimate they brought the right outfit etc for everyone. Clowns have never had a license to grief here, to their benefit because such policies are dumb ideas. Requiring the head of personnel to judge people unworthy before they join the game is pretty daft and the cooldown is pretty strict on slot manipulation. If someone joins a position and can't handle it just because they have numbers it is basically the tider mentality and you should probably ban them.
Most of the time I've seen these sorts of HoPs not even bother opening slots. They just slap the new access on the old ID and old title and send them off.

As to "just make the HoP second in command and then we don't have to worry about him being a griefing shit to the other departments" thing. That's essentially what you're proposing. The complaint is that that HoP is going over the heads of other department heads and that's generally uncool and undermines their authority and ability to manage their departments. So in moving the HoP above them in the CoC you're essentially telling them "tough shit, he runs your departments now."
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by bandit » #40827

No one is proposing that. People are simply proposing making the HoP in charge of hiring across the board. Which makes the most sense given his duties and tools.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Murazor » #40830

Honestly the HoP should be implanted as in its current state its basically a captain that can be an antag.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Arete » #40859

Violaceus wrote:I don't understand why people say "give more power to HoP, then demand higher standards".

I see "higher standards" as "what we actually demand from all other heads", not "HoP should be at highest standards of all heads".
Most heads can use their departmental tools without asking other people for permission first. The HoP's tools happen to have more potential for affecting other departments, but they're still comparable to the ways that other heads can interfere with each other. HoS can choose to randomly search a department, CMO can release a superpowers virus, engineering can choose how to prioritize hull breaches and other repair efforts, RD can mess with the AI.

Making HoP ask before doing his job and giving HoP the right to determine who gets what access are both options that could make sense from a space law and OOC rule perspective. The difference is that one of those options leaves the HoP without many interesting choices to make at all. If heads having complete jurisdiction over their departments is that important (and I do think that a pretty strong case can be made for this), then the HoP should be removed entirely and replaced with a mechanism that doesn't require a player to just sit there and parse orders given over the command channel.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by cedarbridge » #40883

bandit wrote:No one is proposing that. People are simply proposing making the HoP in charge of hiring across the board. Which makes the most sense given his duties and tools.
The HoP's duties are to process authorized job/access changes and manage the service department. That's it.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by bandit » #40889

cedarbridge wrote:
bandit wrote:No one is proposing that. People are simply proposing making the HoP in charge of hiring across the board. Which makes the most sense given his duties and tools.
The HoP's duties are to process authorized job/access changes and manage the service department. That's it.
...and the supply and civilian departments, unless they now suddenly have been removed?
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Raven776 » #40895

The HoP doesn't need more permissions and power. He's already a secondary captain as he has all access, an egun, armor, and people don't seem to care when he uses any of it.

In essence, he's supposed to be the Human Resources department and the bean counter of the station. At some point people decided that this wasn't fun enough.

Remember that every power you give to the HoP takes away from another head or job's abilities or functions. I'd much rather process in my medbay staff than having six greyshirts running around with genetics access, disappearing for half of the round only to come back and get powers when someone discovers them.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by miggles » #40903

Apsis wrote:
CocaneStyle wrote:Here is what I think.

The Head of Personal should be 2nd in command and above every head except the HoS who answers directly to the captain, do that and then it would be fair to hold him to a higher standard.
Because right now the stick is too short for the HoP to not get the short end of it.
I also agree with this. If you wanna make the HoP have higher standards, give the HoP a higher position. In fact, I already play HoP like this. Run things by the HoS (basically asking if he wants potential antags or not), and the other heads are at mercy of already open job slots.

Also, If a HoP messes up then IC punishments should follow. If he's just griefing then the admins can step in.
this

also the end of the legal access argument is just ":c Hey captain can I have all access" "Yes"
the HoP's all access is now authorized and he can go where he wants
if the captain says no, then the opposite is true
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Raven776 » #40918

Why should the HoP be second in command?

I don't think any of you understand what second in command means. It means the HoP suddenly has command over security, medbay, and science. Furthermore, it antiquates the captain, makes the captain inclined to make a useless HoP captain if they have to go braindead themselves, and it doesn't make any damned sense.

Why do we need two captains with one slightly below the other and not even implanted? The current system works fine, and the problem at hand isn't the HoP not getting enough respect, it's the HoP being a boring job. They don't even run out of things to do, they just can't be arsed to sit at their desk all day and do them.

And anyways, SS13 is a game about making your own fun... Fuck, if you're that bored as HoP, go build something in the spare construction room until the station blows up, steal a softsuit, and go start doing repairs. Be useful instead of whining about no respect and the HoS not letting you in to raid the armory.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Oldman Robustin » #40954

I don't like polls like this because the poll choices are very leading...

Choice 1) MAKE THE STATION A BETTER PLACE

2) HOP SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO KILL PEOPLE ON A WHIM


There's a line between forcing the HoP to play a certain way or allowing them to give out all access at round-start.

The second choice in the poll goes right to an extreme that nobody would want to vote for, even if they think choice #1 isn't ideal either.

Just come up with a couple CLEAR rules for HoP-play instead of trying to come up with another ambiguous standard that's going to let shitlers get away with shit while banning legitimate HoP's because it will turn on admin interpretation that always ends up contradicting itself.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by cedarbridge » #40971

bandit wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
bandit wrote:No one is proposing that. People are simply proposing making the HoP in charge of hiring across the board. Which makes the most sense given his duties and tools.
The HoP's duties are to process authorized job/access changes and manage the service department. That's it.
...and the supply and civilian departments, unless they now suddenly have been removed?
Sure, I kinda glossed over those because somehow my brain lumped supply and service into the same bin. This was a mistake because you can never expect good service at cargo. Zing.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Timbrewolf » #41015

Arete wrote:Most heads can use their departmental tools without asking other people for permission first.

Not when they affect other departments. If the RD decides he wants to use the Engineering construction site as a new area to test bombs, he sure better ask first.
If the CE decides he wants to route his tube rollercoaster through the HoP's office, he better ask first.
Why should the HoP using his identification console to add his assistants to other people's departments be any different?

People are saying the HoP should get a bump in authority if we're going to add restrictions to him, but as it currently stands most people already assume he has that increased authority and he has the least amount of restrictions of any head. The only person with more authority on the station is the Captain. Do we need two Captains?

It's circular, you see? If we gave him more authority then it wouldn't make sense for him to ask the other heads for authority to add people to their departments in the first place. If we actually put him above everyone else, we end up right back where we started and the actual gameplay problem that sparked this entire conversation remains.
Oldman Robustin wrote:I don't like polls like this because the poll choices are very leading...

Choice 1) MAKE THE STATION A BETTER PLACE

2) HOP SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO KILL PEOPLE ON A WHIM
But option 2 of the poll is exactly how it currently works. He doesn't need to confirm access with anyone, and unless he's giving the clown all access every round it's not an actionable happening.

He is currently completely free to do whatever he wants with that console unless it results in something so game-breakingly bad it invokes Rule 1. Eg. giving everyone in the line all access in a single round. And even then, it's unlikely the people he gave access to would complain.

If the CE fucks off at roundstart and doesn't setup the engine, we all know that he'll get yelled at.
If the HoS permabrigs everyone, or orders his Sec force to ignore the station's problems to hang out in the brig playing D&D, he'll get yelled at.

Is it not apparent that the HoP has similar methods available to them to plunge the station into chaos "just cuz", and some of them even use it fairly regularly, yet there's no precedent or expectation of an OOC response?

Does that not strike you as a problem that ought to be fixed?
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Arete » #41026

An0n3 wrote:People are saying the HoP should get a bump in authority if we're going to add restrictions to him, but as it currently stands most people already assume he has that increased authority and he has the least amount of restrictions of any head. The only person with more authority on the station is the Captain. Do we need two Captains?

It's circular, you see? If we gave him more authority then it wouldn't make sense for him to ask the other heads for authority to add people to their departments in the first place. If we actually put him above everyone else, we end up right back where we started and the actual gameplay problem that sparked this entire conversation remains.
Giving him more to do doesn't necessarily mean giving him more authority or giving him authority over other departments. The central argument here is that once you take the HoP's choice of who gets what access away, his job is left with essentially nothing but tedium. He can't even choose when to leave his office or else it's dereliction of duty for failing to process the transfers ordered by other heads.

I'm not sure what a better solution would be, but the one being proposed here will not be drawing any better players to the job.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by cedarbridge » #41027

Arete wrote:The central argument here is that once you take the HoP's choice of who gets what access away, his job is left with essentially nothing but tedium.
If this was the central argument, then it was false from the get go. The HoP never had the "choice" of who gets what access inside managed departments outside of his jurisdiction. This has always been the case. One cannot take away what never was.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by highlow » #41028

An0n3 wrote:He doesn't need to confirm access with anyone, and unless he's giving the clown all access every round it's not an actionable happening.

He is currently completely free to do whatever he wants with that console unless it results in something so game-breakingly bad it invokes Rule 1. Eg. giving everyone in the line all access in a single round. And even then, it's unlikely the people he gave access to would complain.

If the CE fucks off at roundstart and doesn't setup the engine, we all know that he'll get yelled at.
If the HoS permabrigs everyone, or orders his Sec force to ignore the station's problems to hang out in the brig playing D&D, he'll get yelled at.

Is it not apparent that the HoP has similar methods available to them to plunge the station into chaos "just cuz", and some of them even use it fairly regularly, yet there's no precedent or expectation of an OOC response?

Does that not strike you as a problem that ought to be fixed?
With the HoS and CE examples, rounds will be ruined and people will be permanently removed from rounds, and violate rule 1. I think that anything that the HoP does that does not reach the level of breaking rule 1 causes little enough harm and has sufficient IC fixes that we don't need new rules nor admin intervention to deal with it. HoP gives out sec or armory access to people? HoS, sec, and captain usually end up dunking HoP and demoting him. HoP gives out access willy nilly? Captain usually dunks him after getting enough complaints.

An0n3 wrote:But option 2 of the poll is exactly how it currently works.
Option 2 implies that you are not helping out the station. The real poll should be "Do we need a stricter code of conduct which allows for admin intervention in a wider variety of circumstances: Yes; No"

The current poll implies that there are no situations where the HoP assigns jobs as they see fit in a way that helps the station, which I think is what happens with 80%+ of HoPs.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Timbrewolf » #41031

Arete wrote: Giving him more to do doesn't necessarily mean giving him more authority or giving him authority over other departments. The central argument here is that once you take the HoP's choice of who gets what access away, his job is left with essentially nothing but tedium. He can't even choose when to leave his office or else it's dereliction of duty for failing to process the transfers ordered by other heads.
I think you're taking that a bit far. Requiring him to have a second yes from the person who runs the department before he can assign someone from his department to the job doesn't remove his ability to say no himself, or shackle him to the chair.

I'm not sure what a better solution would be, but the one being proposed here will not be drawing any better players to the job.
Nor do I think that part of solution being proposed will drive any of the better players away from the job.

If having to talk to the other heads before you give people access to their departments is too much work for you as a HoP, you're really doing the bare-minimum there.

I have HoP set on high preference currently and played three rounds today without being assigned the job once (getting Detective twice and roundstart Borg once). It's never a position you see open late, it's probably the most desired head position on the station.

I don't think we have to worry too much about making sure it stays popular.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Arete » #41035

cedarbridge wrote:If this was the central argument, then it was false from the get go. The HoP never had the "choice" of who gets what access inside managed departments outside of his jurisdiction. This has always been the case. One cannot take away what never was.
On your side, you have space law, which is explicitly not a mandatory part of the game. On my side, I have first, second, and thirdhand experience with HoPs handing out access to other departments and not being stopped from doing so, neither by sec nor by the admins. That means the HoP currently has the choice and this thread is discussing whether it's a good idea to take that choice away.
An0n3 wrote:Nor do I think that part of solution being proposed will drive any of the better players away from the job.
Based on what I've seen, I think the problem with heads of personnel comes from having enough good players setting the job at a medium or high priority. It sounds like you're approaching this from an angle of there being too many bad players on the job, so they're the ones that need to be driven away. Is that an accurate assessment of your views?
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Timbrewolf » #41037

No, I think it's a problem with what we've come to expect from the job itself.

The common perception is that he's second in command of the station, above the other heads, and therefore doesn't need to confer with them when it comes to adding more people to their department. Which, as recent rounds on the station are showing, is causing a lot of problems for other heads while he can sit comfortably in his office without a care in the world.

His job has become making his problem (a long line of people asking for promotions) into other people's problems (crowded workspaces and not enough equipment to go around).

And when he's done doing that, he gets to pet his dog, cherry pick a few pieces of gear from every other department, and go antag hunt or whatever else.

It's ridiculously unfair to the other heads of staff that he has so much authority combined with such little responsibility in how he's expected to use it. We already have the Captain to do that, but he has actual responsibilities like protecting the disk and trying to be a figurehead for the station. We kind of expect him to throw his weight around, but there's also a giant target on him all the time while he does so.

I think there are good players who, knowing there's little expectation for the HoP, just enjoy playing it as is, and if made to take the role more seriously, would be fine with the slight adjustment of having to verbally communicate with other heads. I think there likely are also bad players who enjoy HoP and will scream and cry and quit playing the job or get banned from it if we make this change.

Let me ask you this in return: why do you think so many people want to play as the HoP? Why do more people want to be the HoP than the Captain?
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by cedarbridge » #41042

Arete wrote:On your side, you have space law, which is explicitly not a mandatory part of the game. On my side, I have first, second, and thirdhand experience with HoPs handing out access to other departments and not being stopped from doing so, neither by sec nor by the admins. That means the HoP currently has the choice and this thread is discussing whether it's a good idea to take that choice away.
If we're legitimately boiling this down to anecdotes and calling it a day, I've had first, second and thirdhand experience with HoPs handing out access to other departments where that access was not authorized and being brigged, demoted, the new assignees demoted, or all of the above. So it seems its not as cut and dry as you'd want to believe. The HoP has never had the authority to ignore the chain of command.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by Steelpoint » #41045

Here's how it boils down to.

People play as the HoP more predominantly than the Captain because they gain the same level of access (all access) and most of the respective power but NONE of the responsibility tied to being the Captain. The Captain is still beheld to a set of responsibilities and is a high level target due to the fact he holds several very notable and wanted items (Nuke Disk, All Access, his Medal, Hand Held Teleporter, weaponry, Captain disguise, etc) whereas the HoP is only targeted for his all access.

That's it.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Post by CocaneStyle » #41047

Raven776 wrote:Why should the HoP be second in command?

I don't think any of you understand what second in command means. It means the HoP suddenly has command over security, medbay, and science. Furthermore, it antiquates the captain, makes the captain inclined to make a useless HoP captain if they have to go braindead themselves, and it doesn't make any damned sense.

Why do we need two captains with one slightly below the other and not even implanted? The current system works fine, and the problem at hand isn't the HoP not getting enough respect, it's the HoP being a boring job. They don't even run out of things to do, they just can't be arsed to sit at their desk all day and do them.

And anyways, SS13 is a game about making your own fun... Fuck, if you're that bored as HoP, go build something in the spare construction room until the station blows up, steal a softsuit, and go start doing repairs. Be useful instead of whining about no respect and the HoS not letting you in to raid the armory.
Well I suggested that the HoS and Security wouldn't be under the HoP's authority but under that Captains, does that change anything?
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