[Imsxz] Alexios_Komnenos - admin said its fine when non-antag killed non-antag

[Alexios]

Byond account and character name: NIETNIETNIET, Alexios Komnenos
Admin:Imsxz
Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred: Bagil, around 15.00 31.07.2018
ROUND ID HERE:91826
Detailed summary: A wizzard round. The bar had a discoball and a disco with this wizard and i was a chaplain. In short, I cremate this wizard and Alex Dowdall kills me for that. I ahelp that if Alex was valid, Imsxz said something about huh you can kill him if you want but nothing about is he valid or nah, and Alex already cremated my body at this moment. When the round ended, I did not see Alex on the antag list. So i ahelped that and Imsxz responed "you deserved to die fam". But nah i dont think so. I did nothing personnel to Alex Dowdall.

[imsxz]

Hello, thank you for making a complaint! You didn't mention in the adminhelp that you were cremated, and when you asked if Alex was "valid", I thought you were asking if you could kill them in revenge, as "valid" is generally a term for people that are /valid/ to kill.

As for my handling of Alex killing you as a non-antagonist; most of the station generally wanted you dead for killing their friendly disco wizard. It was rather obvious that a large portion of the crew was fond of the wizard, given the offers for a job/all access, people standing around hugging them, the party in the club area in general. It should have been fairly obvious that there would be some backlash for attacking the wizard, though I do agree that the cremation was too far, it would have been nice to know that it had happened in the adminhelp. Sorry if you did mention being cremated and I happened to miss it, but I don't recall reading about it.

If my ruling is incorrect, this would be a great time for another admin to step in and inform me so I don't make the same mistake again in the future.

[Alexios]

most of the station generally wanted you dead for killing their friendly disco wizard

Yeah, but they did nothing to me.

it would have been nice to know that it had happened in the adminhelp. Sorry if you did mention being cremated and I happened to miss it, but I don't recall reading about it.

Nah i said nothing about cremation, i just said in reply (when you replied that it's okay if i'll kill Alex) something like "huh cant do that now" - it was about my cremation.

Who knows what wiz can have in mind.

[Ayy Lemoh]

Yeah, but they did nothing to me.

I was involved in this and was one of the people trying to kill and lynch you for killing the cool wizard. Can you explain what you meant by 'they did nothing to me' because the wizard did cast timestop to try and stop you. We also had AI lock you down and shit for murdering the wizard.

[Arianya]

Precedent holds that there are acts that are "heinous" enough that you become valid to the crew even if you didn't do something personally to them. The common go-to example is stuff like buying deadly meme shuttles, reciting WGW, etc etc.

Killing/cremating a disco wizard isn't a cut and dry case of this, but depending on how the round was progressing I can certainly think of instances where it would have been allowed retroactively by an admin.

At the end of the day, if you do something that's likely to upset a majority of the crew (and do so solely because you want to upset the crew/to disrupt their fun) I don't think you should be surprised if they take it out on you. Valids aren't everyone's motivator and it would be mean to ask people to not react to an action in game simply because of the existence of an antagonist.

[kevinz000]

Yeah I'd also like to point out that if you ahelp you should give the full situation. "Is this guy valid" ahelps are not descriptive at all and may give us the wrong idea (or result in outright rejection). We can't help you if you don't tell us what happened.

[Alexios]

I was involved in this and was one of the people trying to kill and lynch you for killing the cool wizard. Can you explain what you meant by 'they did nothing to me' because the wizard did cast timestop to try and stop you. We also had AI lock you down and shit for murdering the wizard.

In that round, no one did anything to me besides Alex.

Precedent holds that there are acts that are "heinous" enough that you become valid to the crew even if you didn't do something personally to them. The common go-to example is stuff like buying deadly meme shuttles, reciting WGW, etc etc.

Cant find something like that in rules. But:

Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists

Yeah I'd also like to point out that if you ahelp you should give the full situation.

Yep, i agree with that. I thought that the admin saw what happened.

[Arianya]

Precedent holds that there are acts that are "heinous" enough that you become valid to the crew even if you didn't do something personally to them. The common go-to example is stuff like buying deadly meme shuttles, reciting WGW, etc etc.

Cant find something like that in rules. But:

Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists

Yes, you can do anything you want to an antagonist, but that doesn't make you immune to IC consequences.

As for the precedents I cited:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 16#p327160
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 30#p313973

[Alexios]

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 16#p327160
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 30#p313973

>Lynching for reading/sending Erotica ex like Woody Got Wood
>Buying terrible shuttles
>killing an antag
Quite different things.

[Arianya]

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 16#p327160
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 30#p313973

>Lynching for reading/sending Erotica ex like Woody Got Wood
>Buying terrible shuttles
>killing an antag
Quite different things.

Killing/cremating a disco wizard isn't a cut and dry case of this, but depending on how the round was progressing I can certainly think of instances where it would have been allowed retroactively by an admin.

At the end of the day, if you do something that's likely to upset a majority of the crew (and do so solely because you want to upset the crew/to disrupt their fun) I don't think you should be surprised if they take it out on you. Valids aren't everyone's motivator and it would be mean to ask people to not react to an action in game simply because of the existence of an antagonist.

[Cobby]

Resolve this thread...

Also killing antags is an ooc freedom, not an ic one.

[Rustledjimm]

Killing antags doesn't protect you from IC consequences and also this sounds like mis-communication issue between the player and the admin. If the admin had known the full information I am sure they would not have had a problem dealing with the situation properly. As they've already stated in this thread they agree cremation is a step too far which I think most admins would also think.