Replace Nuke Op with Operative

[Pybro]

Gonna get right to the point: Give Flu Cops multiple other objectives other than just detonating the station. Detonating the station would still be on the possible objective list, but not always the ONLY objective. The team would get multiple objectives that could be completed by any team member

Objective ideas:

>1. Kill [person], the [person's job]
Obvious.

>2. Steal [item]
Obvious. Item has to be on the shuttle when the round ends.

>3. Retrieve the body of [person], the [person's job]
Puke Socks now start with a box of Syndi Body Bags. These body bags can zip up a corpse like regular ones. However, they are designed with special "Kick the corpse until it fits" technology to allow the Operatives to pick up and carry the body bag in their hands. Or they can just drag the body the old fashioned way. The body has to be on the shuttle when the round ends.

>4. Retrieve the brain of [person], the [person's job]
Obvious. The Operatives start with a De-Braino-O 6000 Simply use it on a person and stand still, and it does the debraining for you!

>5. Retrieve the [documents/files/data disk/whatever] from the chest cavity of [person], the [person's job]
Syndi's start with the D-Chest-O 6000 as as well, which like the De-Brain-O 6000, cuts open the targets chest. The target does NOT know that they have the item in them, however!

>6. Steal the Nuclear Device from the station's vault
Where do you think the Syndicate gets those nukes from?

>7. Detonate the station with a nuclear device
What they do now.

Ideally, the Flu Cops would have several of objectives 1-6 unless they have objective 7.

[Spacezenegger]

I like it. Kinda like how cult doesn't always have the summon nar-sie objective.

[cedarbridge]

>6. Steal the Nuclear Device from the station's vault
Where do you think the Syndicate gets those nukes from?

The bomb belonged to the syndicate in the first place. That's why they have the code and the captain does not. NT stole the disk and the bomb. The OPs are sent to get it back (by using it on the station)

[Miauw]

>6. Steal the Nuclear Device from the station's vault
Where do you think the Syndicate gets those nukes from?

The bomb belonged to the syndicate in the first place. That's why they have the code and the captain does not. NT stole the disk and the bomb. The OPs are sent to get it back (by using it on the station)

my headartillery is that they stole the nuke and cracked the code, but need the disk.

[cedarbridge]

>6. Steal the Nuclear Device from the station's vault
Where do you think the Syndicate gets those nukes from?

The bomb belonged to the syndicate in the first place. That's why they have the code and the captain does not. NT stole the disk and the bomb. The OPs are sent to get it back (by using it on the station)

my headartillery is that they stole the nuke and cracked the code, but need the disk.

I don't remember where I saw it written down, but the line was that NT stole the bomb and the disk but didn't have the code to make the thing work. (which is a bit subverted when central just kinda mails the station the code in crisis.) This also makes a bit of sense in that the code the operatives have doesn't pair the disk on the station with the bomb on the station. The disk is intended for a totally different bomb which the operatives cart along with them and use to blow up the station.

[Pybro]

Well I'd always just figured CentComm just remotely linked the device and disk together. The entire reason the Syndi's cart around their own nuke is because this one is hacked to accept any NT disk.

Point is, you gotta get nukes from somewhere, and if you're having your "elite" Operatives raiding the station to kill the Chef, CE, Chaplain, steal the the Chaplains Bible and the Captains medals, then you might as well add the nuke to the shopping list, right?

I thought of another objective:

>8. Steal a function Station AI.
Obvious. It allows for space battles.

[whodaloo]

I always thought the reason the ops had to steal the disk to nuke the station was to make it look like an accident. Like a really grand act of industrial sabotage, they use the on-board nuke disk to trigger the nuke to mask the fact that operatives were deployed.
On-topic, I'm not really sure how non-nuclear ops would go, as a round. If they get like steal the hypospray as an objective, they swipe it, go to the shuttle, and leave, and then what? Wait for the crew to call the shuttle? While it IS true that currently in nuke ops it's pretty much the standard to call the shuttle as soon as you see the hardsuits, but that wouldn't be the case with the new objectives.

[paprika]

Why not boarding party, operatives could be anything including traitors and DAs, ops is too ambiguous imo. Plus boarding party sounds fun, which nuke op rounds are.

[Pybro]

Well I was thinking they'd have multiple objective, so it would be steal a hypospray, murder three guys, then steal some dudes corpse.

If nukeops just want to murder until they die, then it'd be similar to traitor as it is now.

If nukeops want to get all their objectives done then leave, it would be in their best interest to get the shuttle called (And that's usually done by causing carnage).

[lumipharon]

Before the ops have their objectives, it's in their interest to not have the shuttle called. After they have fucked off with their objective, it is no longer in the crew's interest to call the shuttle.

So basically if the shuttle doesn't get called (or gets recalled) before ops die/fuck off, then the crew have no reason to call the shuttle. This could happen because no one is alive to call the shuttle/powersink/dead AI etc.
It's the same as wizards with apprentices that all die, or summon rounds. Just because the antags are dead, the round doesn't end and it can drag on for ages.

[whodaloo]

Before the ops have their objectives, it's in their interest to not have the shuttle called. After they have fucked off with their objective, it is no longer in the crew's interest to call the shuttle.

So basically if the shuttle doesn't get called (or gets recalled) before ops die/fuck off, then the crew have no reason to call the shuttle. This could happen because no one is alive to call the shuttle/powersink/dead AI etc.
It's the same as wizards with apprentices that all die, or summon rounds. Just because the antags are dead, the round doesn't end and it can drag on for ages.

This would be my concern as well, but Lumi voiced it better. I think ops having thieving or de-brain objectives in addition to GET DAT FUKKEN DISK might be a good idea, but removing it entirely is removing a win condition for the operatives without replacing it with anything better. Ops are dangerous and jumped upon because they're a real, tangible threat- one op with the disk and a hardsuit can single handedly end the entire round for everyone. The suggested change makes them basically traitors with a slightly different set of uplink items and no crew ID. I'm not a fan.

[miggles]

no antag should have the debrain objective, ever. its seriously the worst objective in the whole damn game other than stealing research levels.
i dont like the idea of ops having any objective other than nuking the station. stealing and murdering one or two people/things is way too easy, and stealthops would make it even more laughable. some assistant emags into the CMO's office, and runs off never to be seen again. elsewhere 2 people suicide bomb their target and then they fly the ship away and win. ~woo~

[whodaloo]

no antag should have the debrain objective, ever. its seriously the worst objective in the whole damn game other than stealing research levels.
i dont like the idea of ops having any objective other than nuking the station. stealing and murdering one or two people/things is way too easy, and stealthops would make it even more laughable. some assistant emags into the CMO's office, and runs off never to be seen again. elsewhere 2 people suicide bomb their target and then they fly the ship away and win. ~woo~

The debrain objective is pretty lame you're right. I just had a funny mental image of a team of five ops capturing some assistant in maint, debraining him, and taking off in their space ship nobody the wiser. Like a human version of Grays.

[Timbrewolf]

The only good debrain objective is when it targets the clown. Otherwise it should never happen.

Regarding canon for the nuke being on station and the disk?
I always figured that the Syndie nuke they have is something they salvaged from some old derelict or space wreck, since they're supposed to be technological underdogs who can't really produce a lot of things. They have stolen an old earth nuke but they don't know how to make the thing work. Nanotrasen DOES know how to make them work, and provides the captain with a nuke disk and stores one on the station in case shit really hits the fan and corporate secrets need to be protected.

In truth there's nothing stopping our current traitors from cooperating like this. They're even given a series of codewords to try to tip eachother off. It speaks to our playerbase's ability to work together that it so rarely ever happens. If you're reading this and you need some tips:

USE THE DAMN NEWSFEEDS. Hardly anyone pays attention to them as is, and if you're creative you can easily create a broadcast that drops a bunch of codewords while appearing innocuous. Likewise, PAY ATTENTION TO THE DAMN NEWSFEEDS. Someone might be posting looking to help you get stuff done out of sheer boredom after completing their own objectives.

I'm a little reluctant to endorse the idea of Space Operatives having a laundry list of objectives vs. standard nuke because it promotes lone wolf tactics and TC hording. What's the functional difference between a bunch of traitors spawning on the station vs. a bunch of syndicate operatives dividing up the list of objectives and then attacking the station? I think the success rate will plummet even further if Ops are charged with completing a bunch of nickel-and-dime objectives vs their standard one big one.

[Steelpoint]

I remember a few semi-events where the admins spawned in "nuke ops" and gave them standard traitor objectives. It all ended horribly, (though that might have to do with us not having access to proper op equipment) the Ops are encouraged to split up and act in their own interests towards their goals.

[Timbrewolf]

the Ops are encouraged to split up and act in their own interests towards their goals.

At that point it's just a bunch of regular traitors with a common headset frequency.

[Steelpoint]

I forgot to say but its a bad idea.

Maybe having them as a Secondary Objective where the Operatives as a whole get a single objective, it does not give greentext but its good for showing off.

[mrpain]

What about "take X hostage" or "take X body"? Might be cool to abduct people.

[miggles]

@anon
i have no idea where you got the idea that syndicate tech is supposed to be "underdog," almost everything they make is just as good if not better than NT tech
also the canon always was that the nuke disk was syndicate tech that was stolen by NT and your job as an op is to get it back. its that simple, i dont know why anyone would be confused about that.
the station nuke probably works off of blueprints found on the nuke disk itself or some horseshit like that, which is why the nukes are identical. its also why centcom has access to the nuke code, i would assume.

nuke ops is fun because everything is high stakes. if you lose, everyone dies. thats why everyone actually cares when they hear "NUKE OPS" on the radio. it pretty much totally prevents you from having a normal round. any reasonable person at this point wont just ignore everything and go back to work, because 1. there is a very real threat that you could die at any moment, and 2. the round will end soon either way so just going back to work is a waste of time.
there is no end to the nuclear threat until it is 300% confirmed that all the ops are dead and that the nuke disk is for-sure safe. anyone who recalls the shuttle before this point should not be in a position of power.

[Steelpoint]

The in game lore text, that plays when you manually select Nuke Ops as the game, states that the Nuclear Bomb was stolen from Nanotrasen and your job is to infiltrate the station, steal the Nuke Disk, and detonate the bomb on station.

[Remie Richards]

Code: Select all

/datum/game_mode/nuclear/announce()
	world << "<B>The current game mode is - Nuclear Emergency!</B>"
	world << "<B>A [syndicate_name()] Strike Force is approaching [station_name()]!</B>"
	world << "A nuclear explosive was being transported by Nanotrasen to a military base. The transport ship mysteriously lost contact with Space Traffic Control (STC). About that time a strange disk was discovered around [station_name()]. It was identified by Nanotrasen as a nuclear auth. disk and now Syndicate Operatives have arrived to retake the disk and detonate SS13! Also, most likely Syndicate star ships are in the vicinity so take care not to lose the disk!\n<B>Syndicate</B>: Reclaim the disk and detonate the nuclear bomb anywhere on SS13.\n<B>Personnel</B>: Hold the disk and <B>escape with the disk</B> on the shuttle!"

The text is a bit confusing but basically:
1. Nuke ops steal bomb
2. Nuke ops lose disk
3. Disk ends up on Space Station 13
4. Nuke ops want the disk back

[soulgamer]

Disk most likely contains the actual software that is used to detonate the nuke. However this software has a nigh-unbreakable encryption on it that requires the code so the software can be decrypted and used. Shortly before the shift starts the crew finds the auth disk and gets confirmation of what it is from centcom

[fleure]

What about "take X hostage" or "take X body"? Might be cool to abduct people.

I like the hostage idea. You'll probably end up with Nanotrasen employees trying to kill the abductee whilst the Ops have to keep them alive.

[Zsword]

@anon
nuke ops is fun because everything is high stakes. if you lose, everyone dies. thats why everyone actually cares when they hear "NUKE OPS" on the radio. it pretty much totally prevents you from having a normal round. any reasonable person at this point wont just ignore everything and go back to work, because 1. there is a very real threat that you could die at any moment, and 2. the round will end soon either way so just going back to work is a waste of time.

I just wanna say: This exact train of logic is exactly why I hate Nuke ops, although I don't find validhunting fun, cause I'm very unrobust in open combat, and combat in general.

... one time I defibbed the HoS in Nuke Ops and almost rezzed the rest of sec... if there was much left of sec.

... rambling in text, anyway, I do like the idea of different type of Nuke ops rounds, ESPECIALLY when you factor in those fun groups that do RP-Ops? I love some RP-Ops, those rounds always end up gloriously, and, is more viable when the Ops goal ISN'T 'murder the entire station'. Kidnap Jim? I could totally see an exchange happening.

[dezzmont]

RP ops only really works on Bay style servers. While more evocative types such as kidnapping are cool they require a focus on gameplay support, not just roleplay support. A hypothetical warframe style kidnapping device would be useful, and nuke ops would need to have a locator pointing to their location as well as more operator tools to prevent the situation from being a brawl while also preventing it from being a 5 minute snatch and grab.

Stuff like nuke barricades for example and a capture device that takes a minute to activate would give the station enough time to converge on the nuke ops and preventing them all from just grabbing someone and leaving instantly before anyone knows what even is happening.

[Spacemanspark]

On Sybil, there were a few rounds where we decided to not go for the nuke disk and instead give ourselves some other kind of goal. One was to steal gold from the vault, another was to wait about forty five or so minutes into the round and then bust in and delete the entirety of research.

I wouldn't have an issue with different goals for nuke Ops.

[fleure]

On Sybil, there were a few rounds where we decided to not go for the nuke disk and instead give ourselves some other kind of goal. One was to steal gold from the vault, another was to wait about forty five or so minutes into the round and then bust in and delete the entirety of research.

I wouldn't have an issue with different goals for nuke Ops.

Are antags keeping to their objectives something enforced in the server rules/policies? If not, yeah, folks can always come up with things them selves if they are imaginative enough.

[Scott]

Kidnapping / stealing high profile targets should definitely be added as possible objectives for Operatives, but they should always have the nuke objective.

[Scones]

It should be a sort of bonus objective. I'd hate to see an ops team fail to greentext because taking so-and-so alive wasn't really an option with the horde of vigilantes hounding them through the halls.

Also, the staff pets and the clown should be possible kidnapping objectives.

[Timbrewolf]

On Sybil, there were a few rounds where we decided to not go for the nuke disk and instead give ourselves some other kind of goal. One was to steal gold from the vault, another was to wait about forty five or so minutes into the round and then bust in and delete the entirety of research.

I wouldn't have an issue with different goals for nuke Ops.

Are antags keeping to their objectives something enforced in the server rules/policies? If not, yeah, folks can always come up with things them selves if they are imaginative enough.

In a team-based mode like Cult, Rev, or Nuke OPs it's enforceable if one person decides to fuck off and dick over others or just totally ignore things.

If everyone agrees not to go after the nuke but to do something else instead then it's A-okay. If one Op decides he'd rather go assassinate the Clown then he's going to get antag banned.

I remember we had a huge situation blow up over some guys (who IIRC did get antag banned for it) fucking off during a Cult round to summon Nar'Sie when it wasn't an objective, which ended up devouring a lot of cultists and screwing them over. The argument was presented that he's Nar'Sie, he's their god, etc. but the ruling was that in a team-mode like that you have to serve your team objectives first.

It's similar to someone getting rev'ed and then making a bee-line for releasing the singularity. You're an antag and you can do that, mechanically, but in the spirit of the game and according to your goals you're really fucking yourself over and not helping the team at all. So we ban random revs who do that just like they were a non-antag unleashing the singularity.

[dezzmont]

Makes a lot of sense. Team based modes break down if you don't give a shit about anyone else.

I am worried a kidnapping objective would be far too easy though. While armed vigilantes tend to roam the halls during nuke, it takes them time to form. It wouldn't really be too hard for nuke to storm a place and scram nearly instantly to get one guy.

[leibniz]

I think this would be easier to balance and develop if it was a separate gamemode.

[dezzmont]

It fundamentally would be nuke ops with a different set of mission equipment. Can you say why you think it is too different?

[Reimoo]

I am worried a kidnapping objective would be far too easy though. While armed vigilantes tend to roam the halls during nuke, it takes them time to form. It wouldn't really be too hard for nuke to storm a place and scram nearly instantly to get one guy.

What if instead of needing to kidnap one specific person, (which would be quite boring for the rest of the crew to be honest) they needed to kidnap a number of people to fulfill a point quota?

For example, say the point objective is 10. Bagging standard crewmembers counts as 3, heads count as 5, and the captain counts as 10? If the crewmember is dead they could count for only a fraction of their value, perhaps.

This would trigger the same behavior from the crewmembers in standard nuke rounds because everyone could be a potential target.

[miggles]

RP ops only really works on Bay style servers.

well one time i was the captain and a group of ops sent me a message telling me to meet in the library with the disk and gamble the disk in a game of blackjack
i accepted, brought the disk, and we played honorably
i lost, forked over the disk, told everyone to leave, and escaped to mining. nobody else left because they thought i was crazy. the joke was on them.
it was one of the most memorable rounds of ss13 ive ever had

[dezzmont]

RP ops only really works on Bay style servers.

well one time i was the captain and a group of ops sent me a message telling me to meet in the library with the disk and gamble the disk in a game of blackjack
i accepted, brought the disk, and we played honorably
i lost, forked over the disk, told everyone to leave, and escaped to mining. nobody else left because they thought i was crazy. the joke was on them.
it was one of the most memorable rounds of ss13 ive ever had

I think I remember that round! I loved you and hated you at the same time!

That said there is a slight difference between that, a case where the captain was overtly co-operating with the nuke ops, and a case where the nuke ops would have to persue fluff objectives all the time.

[Aleph]

Always give the syndies the objective to recover the disc, even if they don't have to blow the station, so they have the option if they want to, and it keeps the crew assuming that every op team's out to blow the station