Antag Rolling

User avatar
actioninja
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:40 am
Byond Username: Actioninja
Location: comatose

Antag Rolling

Post by actioninja » #494806

Bottom post of the previous page:

So this PR has brought to light that the only precedent ever for antag rolling is a 4 year old thread where Kor said it should be bannable for repeated roundstart suicide

So let's just get what "antag rolling" is out of the way first, let's just agree that antag rolling is doing anything to make sure the only way you're playing a round is if you're an antag. Roundstart suicide, job pref manipulation, things of this
nature. The classic "unga bunga me not get antag me not play game." If you don't agree to this definition, go away, you're just going to derail things and turn this into an argument about semantics when basically everyone can agree what it is whether or not they think it should be allowed.

So I was under the impression that antag rolling of any kind was bannable as I had been told that by a few admins, but upon both looking for the rule, found there wasn't one except for important roles, and the only precedent was the 4 year old Kor ruling. And then to add to the confusion, other people have been told that antag rolling is not bannable or against the rules in any way by other admins.

Both a more up to date ruling on this and maybe even a clarification in the rules would be a good thing.
Image
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Cobby » #495211

Get off the game if you find the game boring or code features to make it fun. I'm not going to accommodate people who only enjoy the game by ruining it for others.

As for "but it will just create more escalation problems" I can assess people when having to make escalation calls and start drawing patterns, I can't when they're silently returning to lobby or suiciding across a period of rounds where I may not even be on to see the early-game printout.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
Xeroxemnas
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:52 am
Byond Username: Xeroxemnas

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Xeroxemnas » #495229

"People should have to die because I'm bored."
Kenteko
Joined: Wed May 15, 2019 11:53 pm
Byond Username: Kenteko

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Kenteko » #495231

Cobby wrote:Get off the game if you find the game boring or code features to make it fun. I'm not going to accommodate people who only enjoy the game by ruining it for others.

As for "but it will just create more escalation problems" I can assess people when having to make escalation calls and start drawing patterns, I can't when they're silently returning to lobby or suiciding across a period of rounds where I may not even be on to see the early-game printout.
That you feel antag only exists for people to ruin rounds is either showing your own personal issues or the issues of culture present in TG.

Antags are absolutely not made for people to ruin rounds, they're there to accomplish goals and by extension, create tension and different circumstances with how those goals are accomplished. Two different people using two different kits causes a massive change in how the round itself runs on top of the departments that need to work to fix it. TB gets released? Different then a syndie bomb blowing up then a robust tot.

More importantly, you're thinking in pure black and white. You assume (at least I'm inferring) through your posts that traitor is a "reward" for suffering when it is, in fact, a simple roll of the dice. There are many people that actually do not play traitor at all because they don't find it fun, feel they're not robust, or simply dislike the idea of ruining someone's round. This is part of why I think antag rolling should be allowed: There should be people who strive to be the best antags they possibly can as there are people who strive to be the best (non traitor position) they possibly can be.

As for the whole "leave or code" dilemma, realize that people have differing skills and the like. If you're all but stating that you have some sort of higher position because you can code then that says more about your character than about anything else. People provide to communities in different ways, either from working within the game or community to create something better, to doing math, to mapping, to simply putting code together that choosing to wave a coding dick around just makes you come off worse.
User avatar
datorangebottle
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:53 am
Byond Username: Datorangebottle

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by datorangebottle » #495235

Eskjjlj wrote:It's easy to enforce that.
When you spot a player commit suicide when not antag you make a secret note "Suicided as non-antag. Keep an eye on him in the future for antag rolling." And then when they suicide a second time you antag ban them!
Sounds fair, right?
Suiciding isn't against the rules. Getting banned because of bad circumstance twice is awful and shouldn't be a thing that happens.

This whole thread reeks of 'reeeee this isn't fair'. You shouldn't be able to hold people hostage at a computer screen just because you played so many times without getting what you wanted. Enforcing that people can't suicide at the start of the round will make them AFK. Or Ghost. Or just plain log out. And then you start banning for those things, and pretty soon if you sign up for a round you're signing up for an hour+ commitment.

If people are antag rolling because the game isn't fun for them otherwise, then why aren't the base mechanics of the game fun? Are they burnt out? Or are c*ders removing every ounce of fun to be had in the name of balance, roleplay, and efficiency?
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
User avatar
Qbmax32
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:05 am
Byond Username: Qbmax32
Github Username: qbmax32
Location: in your walls

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Qbmax32 » #495237

Kenteko wrote:I think antag rolling should be allowed.

This is coming from someone that has no problem with the PVE side and actively encourages people to space explore/do their autism projects/etc. However, I'm not blind to the fact that most of the non antag side is in a terrible place right now on TG.

Most of the jobs are either boring, mindless, or unrewarding. I'm a huge fan of tedium when I need to do something mindless, but at the same time, I also understand that I tend to enjoy having the CHOICE of zoning out versus doing something.TG as a culture seems to revel in being a traitor, all the goodies you get often have no counter, things that make you have a hard time are constantly nerfed, and often the "NPCs" tend to get mostly ignored or rolled over in favor of a murderboner. Attempting to deescalte often ends with you dead in a ditch somewhere because "you should've shot them." This creates a situation of rocket tag where security often goes completely brutal to deal with an alpha strike, which leads to non antags getting shit on harder, which leads to antags wanting to up the ante and so on.

Really, antag rolling would extend rounds as people who don't get it are happy to end up observing and not tiding. Job slots aren't lost (not that HoP bothers with that) and people who are content to do their jobs are more likely to come around. This will lead to lower pop rounds and a complete admission that the game is about antags first (and being an antag) versus having a rich and nuanced system where you are happy to be the NPC or the antag either way.

Side note, don't assume that everyone who is for antag rolling wants to be an antag. I tend to roll either command staff or join in as an assistant when I don't want to deal with the responsibility and just want to autism fort. Even when I do traitor, I almost never spend my TC (either TC trading for devil/meme or letting it sit in my PDA) because I'd rather have to play on an even playing field then blatantly walk around with broken shit.


Antag rolling has encouraged and will continue to encourage a shitty playstyle where everyone only plays the game to acquire their license-to-grief so they can grab a desword fuck around for 20 minutes and either purge the station if they're good enough or die trying. You say that the non-antag gameplay is bad on tg and that it should focus more on playing as an antag and smashing stuff with departmental gameplay loops as secondary and I really don't understand what point you're trying to make.

/tg/ has not been medium rp for a long long time, some may argue it was never medium rp. But allowing antag rolling just encourages shitty players to keep pushing their cancerous play to win playstyles on others and pushes tg closer in spec to hippie. maybe im just out of touch and lord knows i dont play the game nearly as much as i used to but i honestly believe we should at the very least be trying to maintain some semblance of order im probably just rambling at this point but idk
my admin feedback thread


quotes
Spoiler:
wesoda25 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:02 am Qbmax32 is quite literally one of the dumbest individuals I have ever had the misfortune of coming into contact with. He has zero redeemable traits, and honestly I have to suppress my gag reflex every time he shows up in a conversation.
Malkraz wrote:YES
DRINK THE PISS QB
angelstarri wrote:qbmax is a retard
imsxz wrote:mythic please stop you’ve hit rock bottom and you KEEP DIGGING
deedubya wrote:I'll defend to the death your right to scream "NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER" on a constant basis, but I'll also equally defend the right of people to call you a fuckin' pillock for doing it.
datorangebottle wrote:what, not having to act like customer service in a volunteer customer service position?

Here's a rebuttal: you're literally in a customer service slash celebrity position. Volunteer or not.
Malkraz wrote:can you stop posting this shit
Nalzul wrote:Fuck Blob (can you imagine how hot it would be to be gangbanged by a bunch of blobbernauts, the blob, and spores)
Wyzack wrote:qbmax your pathetic display of abhorrent burgercraft has brought shame onto the omnivores
Plapatin wrote:i AM the senate
BONERMASTER wrote:I am a big thinker, and it would only be logical if my character had a big head as well. And glasses. Because only people that think, wear glasses.
feem wrote:i tried to send canisters of urine to the station but ended up turning all oxygen into urine and breaking lavaland and also breathing
Anonmare wrote:Each post in this thread can't settle on what it wants to be, but yet, each one is more cursed than the last.
Beesting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.
Vile Beggar wrote:i don't like this thread
imsxz wrote:nervore
FantasticFwoosh wrote:I will whisper sweet nothings that will confuse and perhaps scare you a little, but enhance the experience no-less.
afelinidisfinetoo wrote:By the way, the person who posted that catgirl porn on the github page was me. If anyone wants my private stash just PM me
Nervere wrote:Anything for a femoid.....
Qbopper wrote:I'm a dumb poopy butthead
CitrusGender wrote:god i love it when people feed me my own fried legs
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Shadowflame909 » #495238

the way we're trying to obtain "order" is the same way we tried to do so by removing the assistant role

Shitters gonna shit, but they're gonna shit to your detriment when you do a hack job of a solution
► Show Spoiler
User avatar
Qbmax32
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:05 am
Byond Username: Qbmax32
Github Username: qbmax32
Location: in your walls

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Qbmax32 » #495240

antag rolling has always been banned though?
my admin feedback thread


quotes
Spoiler:
wesoda25 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:02 am Qbmax32 is quite literally one of the dumbest individuals I have ever had the misfortune of coming into contact with. He has zero redeemable traits, and honestly I have to suppress my gag reflex every time he shows up in a conversation.
Malkraz wrote:YES
DRINK THE PISS QB
angelstarri wrote:qbmax is a retard
imsxz wrote:mythic please stop you’ve hit rock bottom and you KEEP DIGGING
deedubya wrote:I'll defend to the death your right to scream "NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER" on a constant basis, but I'll also equally defend the right of people to call you a fuckin' pillock for doing it.
datorangebottle wrote:what, not having to act like customer service in a volunteer customer service position?

Here's a rebuttal: you're literally in a customer service slash celebrity position. Volunteer or not.
Malkraz wrote:can you stop posting this shit
Nalzul wrote:Fuck Blob (can you imagine how hot it would be to be gangbanged by a bunch of blobbernauts, the blob, and spores)
Wyzack wrote:qbmax your pathetic display of abhorrent burgercraft has brought shame onto the omnivores
Plapatin wrote:i AM the senate
BONERMASTER wrote:I am a big thinker, and it would only be logical if my character had a big head as well. And glasses. Because only people that think, wear glasses.
feem wrote:i tried to send canisters of urine to the station but ended up turning all oxygen into urine and breaking lavaland and also breathing
Anonmare wrote:Each post in this thread can't settle on what it wants to be, but yet, each one is more cursed than the last.
Beesting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.
Vile Beggar wrote:i don't like this thread
imsxz wrote:nervore
FantasticFwoosh wrote:I will whisper sweet nothings that will confuse and perhaps scare you a little, but enhance the experience no-less.
afelinidisfinetoo wrote:By the way, the person who posted that catgirl porn on the github page was me. If anyone wants my private stash just PM me
Nervere wrote:Anything for a femoid.....
Qbopper wrote:I'm a dumb poopy butthead
CitrusGender wrote:god i love it when people feed me my own fried legs
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Shadowflame909 » #495241

I shit you not

If this was true

"GENE BALL IS MOVING" would never have become a meme.

We have a culture where it's common for 20 people, (even more if the mode is war ops) will instantly commit suicide or go braindead.

It's right below the level of tiding, I would say.

Things will not end well if you suddenly try to enforce something that was not being enforced at all, to the point where it was well-known that admins were doing it.

Tldr; Fewer admins on bagil. Even though the number is 0 most of the time. More Tide, More Escalation, More Grief.

I should probably stop commenting on every little thing. Repeating myself is making my point redundant
► Show Spoiler
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Cobby » #495243

Kenteko wrote: That you feel antag only exists for people to ruin rounds is either showing your own personal issues or the issues of culture present in TG.

Antags are absolutely not made for people to ruin rounds, they're there to accomplish goals and by extension, create tension and different circumstances with how those goals are accomplished. Two different people using two different kits causes a massive change in how the round itself runs on top of the departments that need to work to fix it. TB gets released? Different then a syndie bomb blowing up then a robust tot.

More importantly, you're thinking in pure black and white. You assume (at least I'm inferring) through your posts that traitor is a "reward" for suffering when it is, in fact, a simple roll of the dice. There are many people that actually do not play traitor at all because they don't find it fun, feel they're not robust, or simply dislike the idea of ruining someone's round. This is part of why I think antag rolling should be allowed: There should be people who strive to be the best antags they possibly can as there are people who strive to be the best (non traitor position) they possibly can be.
The people who tend to do "interesting" traitor stuff are also those that do interesting stuff when they aren't traitor. As such, the people who antag roll also tend to be murderboners (from the people who we've caught ofc).

You can create unique stories just as much while nonantag as you can antag. If you're legitimately interested in the storytelling aspect, you'd still do *something* in the round rather than just suicide as soon as you realize you haven't won your "golden ticket".

Telling me i'm the crazy one for saying these people treat it like such is absolutely nuts, THEY LITERALLY DO NOT PLAY THE GAME UNLESS THEY GET THIS. THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
As for the whole "leave or code" dilemma, realize that people have differing skills and the like. If you're all but stating that you have some sort of higher position because you can code then that says more about your character than about anything else. People provide to communities in different ways, either from working within the game or community to create something better, to doing math, to mapping, to simply putting code together that choosing to wave a coding dick around just makes you come off worse.
I've never implied I am better than someone else because I code. I use "code" to mean contribute with a deliverable (that is code, sprites, maps, etc.) rather than being just an ideas guy.

At some point you have to realize that no one has an obligation to code on your behalf or make the game fun for you. If you want epic features or "enjoyable jobs" then the onus is on the person complaining to take the initiative. If you refuse to do that, and see no one is helping you, then you're only non-masochistic option is to play something you DO find enjoyable.

The idea that i'm a bad guy for telling people that is odd.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
PKPenguin321
Site Admin
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:02 pm
Byond Username: PKPenguin321
Github Username: PKPenguin321
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by PKPenguin321 » #495244

cedarbridge wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
NoxVS wrote:Meaningful roleplay requires conflict, otherwise it’s just two people awkwardly doing bar RP. The only reliable source of conflict is from antags considering the only conflict that can be formed between two non antags is shallow or forced.
You what.

I'm starting to think that the whole "TG is norp" thing is really just that people don't have any fucking idea how to roleplay.
To his credit, roleplay that comes about due to conflict is leaps and bounds more interesting than roleplay that doesn't.
To whom
To me, to NoxVS, to pretty much most of our playerbase? A tense and dramatic situation brought on by conflict is way more interesting than "another day at work" or close variants thereof, and I think this is something that can generally be agreed on unless you play on High-RP servers (where they still enjoy conflict-risen RP, mind you, but are more tolerant for RP that isn't) or are a massive contrarian.
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
Image
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Cobby » #495245

Nabski got spoken to about antag rolling around the time the "gene ball is moving" meme appeared so that example is pretty bad.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
Kenteko
Joined: Wed May 15, 2019 11:53 pm
Byond Username: Kenteko

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Kenteko » #495248

Cobby wrote:
Kenteko wrote: That you feel antag only exists for people to ruin rounds is either showing your own personal issues or the issues of culture present in TG.

Antags are absolutely not made for people to ruin rounds, they're there to accomplish goals and by extension, create tension and different circumstances with how those goals are accomplished. Two different people using two different kits causes a massive change in how the round itself runs on top of the departments that need to work to fix it. TB gets released? Different then a syndie bomb blowing up then a robust tot.

More importantly, you're thinking in pure black and white. You assume (at least I'm inferring) through your posts that traitor is a "reward" for suffering when it is, in fact, a simple roll of the dice. There are many people that actually do not play traitor at all because they don't find it fun, feel they're not robust, or simply dislike the idea of ruining someone's round. This is part of why I think antag rolling should be allowed: There should be people who strive to be the best antags they possibly can as there are people who strive to be the best (non traitor position) they possibly can be.
The people who tend to do "interesting" traitor stuff are also those that do interesting stuff when they aren't traitor. As such, the people who antag roll also tend to be murderboners (from the people who we've caught ofc).

You can create unique stories just as much while nonantag as you can antag. If you're legitimately interested in the storytelling aspect, you'd still do *something* in the round rather than just suicide as soon as you realize you haven't won your "golden ticket".

Telling me i'm the crazy one for saying these people treat it like such is absolutely nuts, THEY LITERALLY DO NOT PLAY THE GAME UNLESS THEY GET THIS. THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
The thing is, if they're not playing, that's great: Better they not play than negatively contribute to the round. Not everyone has the gumption, patience, or even skill to be able to roleplay, make something from nothing, or work cooperatively with others and the culture sure as hell doesn't care to reinforce those values. I've literally gotten props and recognition playing as an assistant that assists because people simply do not understand that's even remotely possible in the culture and environment fostered by many people. This is still a paranoia game and some people just suck at trusting, have been hurt to often, or are not engaged enough to want to play the waiting game.
As for the whole "leave or code" dilemma, realize that people have differing skills and the like. If you're all but stating that you have some sort of higher position because you can code then that says more about your character than about anything else. People provide to communities in different ways, either from working within the game or community to create something better, to doing math, to mapping, to simply putting code together that choosing to wave a coding dick around just makes you come off worse.[/quote}
I've never implied I am better than someone else because I code. I use "code" to mean contribute with a deliverable (that is code, sprites, maps, etc.) rather than being just an ideas guy.

At some point you have to realize that no one has an obligation to code on your behalf or make the game fun for you. If you want epic features or "enjoyable jobs" then the onus is on the person complaining to take the initiative. If you refuse to do that, and see no one is helping you, then you're only non-masochistic option is to play something you DO find enjoyable.

The idea that i'm a bad guy for telling people that is odd.
Ideas are much more than just "Oh this would sound cool:" they are the start of game design. Proper game design often entails full mathematical breakdowns with spreadsheets and balancing, design documents, proofs of concept, or even simple polling and information gathering; it's disingenuous to call it just being ideas. Even if someone were to go and do the due diligence of presenting a full on game design idea, fleshed out and balanced, it will likely get universally shut down with "lrn2code" or just "this is stupid" by people who can code or contribute in different ways. Even things such as armor rebalances which, by game design perspective are incredibly easy to do, are near impossible tasks to accomplish currently due to confusing documentation or simple inconsistency in design. Did you know that two of the three RD outfits are simply worse than the other for no discernible reason? How is a number pass supposed to even be approached without an overall goal or intent for the server beyond "what the individual" wants.

This is further frustrating when things like the HoP mech get shut down without a word or the entire hullabaloo about sleepers and stasis beds. Why were they added and sleepers removed? Is this an overall design decision? Is this something that should be ignored? What if someone wants to reintroduce sleepers or use them in a new way? Too bad? It's confusing in general, but only compounding further.

So yea, game design is not just an idea thing, but I can see why people/coders find frustration with people who spout out ideas or try to see things from a larger game design perspective.
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Cobby » #495265

"The thing is, if they're not playing, that's great: Better they not play than negatively contribute to the round."

I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I will ban antag rollers who do nothing but negatively contribute to the round unless they're antag, in which case most times they still typically contribute negatively.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
Kenteko
Joined: Wed May 15, 2019 11:53 pm
Byond Username: Kenteko

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Kenteko » #495269

Cobby wrote:"The thing is, if they're not playing, that's great: Better they not play than negatively contribute to the round."

I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I will ban antag rollers who do nothing but negatively contribute to the round unless they're antag, in which case most times they still typically contribute negatively.
The problem with this mindset is that you can and will get innocents in the process. This has been proven time and time again historically, with things like tell checks in muds to prevent botting (the bot scripts just got better), leavers getting dumped with other leavers, and a few other situations. Most of the time, it's better to solve the actual problem causing the behavior then to directly punish the behavior, barring some exceptions. Things like rage quitting in fighting games, which have a very specific and very obvious tell, are better examples of things to punish versus leaving (which could happen because of bad internet). It's especially worse if you automate a process because then it becomes arcane, INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower, and often hits the innocent more than the guilty.

The problem with this is the assumption that people have to suffer in order to be an antag. This would be true if there was a system in place where X amount of rounds survived as a non antag contributed to, say, an antag token, and then antag tokens were the main way of getting antags. That's using proper design on top of encouraging good gameplay. Antag rolling as it is would be fine because it's honestly just how the game rolls. Fix the disease not the symptom.
User avatar
teepeepee
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:21 am
Byond Username: Teepeepee

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by teepeepee » #495275

"if you don't let us/them suicide/ghost/space ourselves/themselves roundstart repeatedly we'll/they'll tide really hard instead"
why are these people even being paid attention lmao
just make it so x ammount of consecutive first 10 min self-caused deaths get you flagged
Kenteko
Joined: Wed May 15, 2019 11:53 pm
Byond Username: Kenteko

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Kenteko » #495280

teepeepee wrote:"if you don't let us/them suicide/ghost/space ourselves/themselves roundstart repeatedly we'll/they'll tide really hard instead"
why are these people even being paid attention lmao
just make it so x ammount of consecutive first 10 min self-caused deaths get you flagged
Honestly, that's a non starter. Then people will just afk for 11 minutes and faff about in another window. Once the time has been found out, and it will be found out as soon as the first warning is issued, people will just do the absolute bare minimum to do things.

As it stands, we barely even bother enforcing Rule 5, this isn't on the books and suicide is often even considered to be normal.
User avatar
cedarbridge
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by cedarbridge » #495287

Kenteko wrote:
teepeepee wrote:"if you don't let us/them suicide/ghost/space ourselves/themselves roundstart repeatedly we'll/they'll tide really hard instead"
why are these people even being paid attention lmao
just make it so x ammount of consecutive first 10 min self-caused deaths get you flagged
Honestly, that's a non starter. Then people will just afk for 11 minutes and faff about in another window. Once the time has been found out, and it will be found out as soon as the first warning is issued, people will just do the absolute bare minimum to do things.

As it stands, we barely even bother enforcing Rule 5, this isn't on the books and suicide is often even considered to be normal.
This does a pretty solid job of just making it clear that we don't need a code solution and we're going to keep banning people for rolling. We don't need an algo to do it for us.
User avatar
SaveVatznick
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:40 am
Byond Username: SaveVatznick

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by SaveVatznick » #495295

cedarbridge wrote: I'm starting to think that the whole "TG is norp" thing is really just that people don't have any fucking idea how to roleplay.
Leora Fleebish is every bad part of me stuffed into a 32x32 sprite.
Karp
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:54 am
Byond Username: Ambassador Magikarp

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Karp » #495311

PKPenguin321 wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
NoxVS wrote:Meaningful roleplay requires conflict, otherwise it’s just two people awkwardly doing bar RP. The only reliable source of conflict is from antags considering the only conflict that can be formed between two non antags is shallow or forced.
You what.

I'm starting to think that the whole "TG is norp" thing is really just that people don't have any fucking idea how to roleplay.
To his credit, roleplay that comes about due to conflict is leaps and bounds more interesting than roleplay that doesn't.
To whom
To me, to NoxVS, to pretty much most of our playerbase? A tense and dramatic situation brought on by conflict is way more interesting than "another day at work" or close variants thereof, and I think this is something that can generally be agreed on unless you play on High-RP servers (where they still enjoy conflict-risen RP, mind you, but are more tolerant for RP that isn't) or are a massive contrarian.
i forgot to hit submit on a post i made on this chain fuck time to remake it

One thing I'm not a fan of is "Meaningful [action]" as generally it just refers to "[action] but I like it", making any serious discussion on the topic awkward as everyone has a different idea in mind. What do you mean by meaningful roleplay? Defining what meaningful roleplay is to you is to you and what level of conflict you might need would help others understand your point.

The biggest issue about Roleplay/meaningful roleplay is that everyone has a different definition of what roleplay might be and what is good or enjoyable roleplay. Defining this standard on a single scale is probably the hardest thing as some people treat basic coworker interactions as roleplay and others who won't count it, some who treat emoting as the bare minimum of roleplay and others who treat it as the minimum of high roleplay. We'd have to define what we're looking for in roleplay and accept that a lot of people won't be satisfied with the definitions at the end of the day.

You'd also have to elaborate which types of conflict are conducive to roleplay. Conflict also falls into the same trap as meaningful roleplay in that people can have wildly different expectations. The best current example is what we have with our escalation policy. Many people argue as if escalation policy's conflict isn't meaningful/good conflict because it tends to lead to nonantagonist murder or the fact that it encourages violent reactions over property crime is bad, discourages roleplay, and it makes the game feel like a TDM sim while others believe that nonantagonists being allowed to take agency and achieve conflict resolution in game avoiding the immersion break of an administrator intervening is a net positive and allows a natural way to recover and resolve situations without being forced to shove your thumbs up your ass and ahelp

And IMO, at the end of the day the server is best when it's a healthy mix of every playstyle. Chaos is fun, action is fun, survival is fun, cooperating and working with your coworkers is fun, relaxing peaceful slow rounds are fun. The issue with all of the above styles are when they feel too common or when they start to drown a playstyle out. Measured doses and all, even though everyone disagrees on what dosage they might like.

Also lmaoing @ ur life for saying "Antagonist conflict is the only good kind". Most all of the most hilarious and enjoyable conflicts I've had playing this game involve nonantagonist on nonantagonist interactions.

The rounds I'm talking about tend to be silly stuff like being drafted as security's surgeon to torture prisoners by replacing their eyeballs with flashlight eyes by the captain and head of security, creating a maint bar when the captain banned alcohol one round as I illegally distributing alcohol while avoiding questioning and lying to security and the captain barely avoiding being arrested, being crowned the king of the station by a bunch of fellow assistants so we could take the station under new management while delcaring that I would be fair and just as security attempted to hunt us down and prevent our peaceful message of reform and improvements to policy, or creating a deranged 9 shard supercharged oxygen supermatter setup that had a flaw that caused it to irradiate and nearly kill a decent percent of engineering as I had to repeatedly lie and distract engineering and the station while attempting to salvage the abomination gone wrong.

The stuff I said really doesn't do justice to the memorability, enjoyability, and "meaningful" roleplay that occured during those events. The real takeaway should be that the game can be fun and have "meaningful"/"engaging" conflict/roleplay if you're willing to step outside of your comfort zone and do risky weird or fun shit

I think antag rolling and antagonists have burnt the fuse in your brain out bro take the redpill
Image
Image
Karp
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:54 am
Byond Username: Ambassador Magikarp

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Karp » #495313

Kenteko wrote:
teepeepee wrote:"if you don't let us/them suicide/ghost/space ourselves/themselves roundstart repeatedly we'll/they'll tide really hard instead"
why are these people even being paid attention lmao
just make it so x ammount of consecutive first 10 min self-caused deaths get you flagged
Honestly, that's a non starter. Then people will just afk for 11 minutes and faff about in another window. Once the time has been found out, and it will be found out as soon as the first warning is issued, people will just do the absolute bare minimum to do things.

As it stands, we barely even bother enforcing Rule 5, this isn't on the books and suicide is often even considered to be normal.
t. nonadmin

We aren't omniscient and people who suicide or disconnect will get warned before they get banned. I say it a lot but our policy is centered around assuming the best in people and giving people chances as the worst players will just hang themselves on the rope we give them. Banning people on first offenses and banning people because they upset another player is absolutely horrendous policy and creates a system where new players and players in general are expected to be omniscient and where the loudest voices get to arbitrarily dictate the rules on the server

It may surprise you but the gentle hand method of our administration is meant to encourage reformation, improvement, and is based on the understanding that most people are imperfect humans playing an imperfect game. It's in this state because the playerbase overwhelmingly dislikes harsh bans for the sake of punishment instead of reform/server improvement, rule 1 is basically forbidden to use outside of extreme scenarios due to the playerbase disliking that an admin can ban people whenever they want for something as arbitrary as "being a dick", and that the administration team dislikes the heavy-handed ruthless approach of banning people because the rules state it rather than because it would be benefical for the server.

If your issue is people greytiding with head roles you should adminhelp it and it'll be resolved or you could create a policy thread suggesting an increase in minimum head standards unless you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. We have a thread already on people not doing their jobs, and the ratio of like/dislike from administrators tend to be representative of the split between playerbase on liking/disliking the concept https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=21618

Though we've had plenty of people get watchlisted/banned over antag rolling behaviour and it isn't as common nowadays primarily because job rolling allows you to easily avoid playing as a nonantag so you can observe instead of suiciding. Or maybe people are changing in general, we don't have ban quotas on any rules. We don't treat the playerbase as if they're implicitly guilty.
Image
Image
User avatar
Jimmius
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:00 pm
Byond Username: Jimmius

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Jimmius » #495326

secret extended is the best mode
what kind of "RP" do you even do with traitors? greet the dsword murderboner with "hello good sir, i see you are having a wonderful day aboard this fine plasma research facility" and get instantly decapitated?
Think about how much RP goes on during cult, or nuke ops, or revs. Functionally none, because every second you waste doing incredibly high quality RP for a crowd of none is a second that you're not helping your side to win.
As was pointed out in the community meeting when discussing if nuke ops should end on antag death, once people know the mode, you cannot get them to stop searching for valids because the entire game is centered around that.
The slow pace (and mass suicide of antag rollers) in extended/secret extended forces people to find enjoyment with the games other systems, including (surprise surprise) talking to the other people on the station.
User avatar
WarbossLincoln
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:14 pm
Byond Username: WarbossLincoln

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by WarbossLincoln » #495335

Secret extended is the best mode
It's really not, because after 15 minutes of no antag activity like 25 tiders realize it's probably extended and start rioting and fucking everything up. There's usually more random grief, murder, and destruction on extended than on the non team-deathmatch modes like traitor.
--Crocodillo

Image
User avatar
cedarbridge
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by cedarbridge » #495347

WarbossLincoln wrote:
Secret extended is the best mode
It's really not, because after 15 minutes of no antag activity like 25 tiders realize it's probably extended and start rioting and fucking everything up. There's usually more random grief, murder, and destruction on extended than on the non team-deathmatch modes like traitor.
And more bans. Sometimes you've got to clean the pool, dude.
User avatar
CDranzer
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 11:43 am
Byond Username: CDranzer

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by CDranzer » #495359

Okay, firstly, if you really want to remove antag rolling just make all antag roles midround so people don't have an easy way of knowing if they're going to be safe to gib themselves in the HoP line or not. I feel like there was some project or attempt at it at some point? But I don't keep up to speed with the coderbus.

Secondly, can we stop pretending that the moment a policy is implemented the admins are going to go full fucking gestapo? Like "have a suicide roll policy" does not mean "IF YOU EVER SUICIDE THE ADMINS ARE GOING TO PERMABAN YOU AND GAS YOUR METAFRIENDS", and the idea of "if we can't define the policy in the most flawless perfect way imaginable then it should never ever be implemented" would obliterate half of regular policy and probably the entirety of silicon policy.
User avatar
PKPenguin321
Site Admin
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:02 pm
Byond Username: PKPenguin321
Github Username: PKPenguin321
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by PKPenguin321 » #495387

me: doesnt use the word meaningful once, interprets nox's use of it to mean "more interesting"
karp: Image
Karp wrote:Also lmaoing @ ur life for saying "Antagonist conflict is the only good kind".
nobody said this
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
Image
User avatar
cedarbridge
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by cedarbridge » #495398

CDranzer wrote:Okay, firstly, if you really want to remove antag rolling just make all antag roles midround so people don't have an easy way of knowing if they're going to be safe to gib themselves in the HoP line or not. I feel like there was some project or attempt at it at some point? But I don't keep up to speed with the coderbus.

Secondly, can we stop pretending that the moment a policy is implemented the admins are going to go full fucking gestapo? Like "have a suicide roll policy" does not mean "IF YOU EVER SUICIDE THE ADMINS ARE GOING TO PERMABAN YOU AND GAS YOUR METAFRIENDS", and the idea of "if we can't define the policy in the most flawless perfect way imaginable then it should never ever be implemented" would obliterate half of regular policy and probably the entirety of silicon policy.
1) As far as I'm aware the only code solution presented in recent memory was placing antag rolls before job rolls (or vis versa, I've lost track) to encourage more sec players not to feel like they'd miss out on antag due to rolling sec.

2) The policy literally already exists. Its already being enforced. The apocalypse has not happened.
User avatar
CDranzer
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 11:43 am
Byond Username: CDranzer

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by CDranzer » #495408

cedarbridge wrote:The policy literally already exists. Its already being enforced. The apocalypse has not happened.
Is it actually in the rules though? Last I checked it isn't officially stated, it's just one of those things that people sort of take for granted like lynching for daniel.
Karp
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:54 am
Byond Username: Ambassador Magikarp

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Karp » #495424

PKPenguin321 wrote:me: doesnt use the word meaningful once, interprets nox's use of it to mean "more interesting"
karp:
Spoiler:
Image
Karp wrote:Also lmaoing @ ur life for saying "Antagonist conflict is the only good kind".
nobody said this
NoxVS wrote:Meaningful roleplay requires conflict, otherwise it’s just two people awkwardly doing bar RP. The only reliable source of conflict is from antags considering the only conflict that can be formed between two non antags is shallow or forced.
did you read my post or are you intentionally acting stupid

you haven't addressed a single point I raised outside of trying to use epic zingers to discredit me after skimming the first 3 lines

I'll spoonfeed you because I'm nice. Every instance of meaningful I said involves me explaining the issue with using meaningful or saying that using meaningful [action] doesn't work because we'd have to define the metrics of what would apply just like how roleplay is arbitrarily used to define a style of roleplaying that specific person enjoys. The instances of "meaningful" I use involve me either elaborating with another more practical word(good) or using the stated phrase as an ironically with quotes showcasing disagreement but using the original posters wording as a joke. They're meant to show how I disagree with the usage of the word or elaborate with another word that explains what I mean

you still haven't addressed the issue on what kind of conflict is good for roleplay. Drama, conflict, and tension are great but a lot of the times the conflicts people complain about tend to be "x ran in, disarm spammed me for my medkit, and then started trying to relentlessly murder me with a fire extinguisher as I ran away/shoved them to get them to stop" or "The assistant I stunned and let out of the captain's office is now trying to break in and kill ian to upset me, is trying to stun me to cuff me and take my shit, and is acting like they're playing a competitive video game instead of trying to do something fun". Those situations can be fun and done well but generally the initiator and escalator of those conflicts tend to play it very dry and boring, as if they were trying to personally attack the player rather than do a funny gimmick or play out a funny situation to the point where the only engaging thing you could do with them is kill them or torture them until they hard ghost
Image
Image
User avatar
cedarbridge
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by cedarbridge » #495439

Karp wrote:I'll spoonfeed you because I'm nice.
Cease
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Cobby » #495446

CDranzer wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:The policy literally already exists. Its already being enforced. The apocalypse has not happened.
Is it actually in the rules though? Last I checked it isn't officially stated, it's just one of those things that people sort of take for granted like lynching for daniel.
Since when does every policy needs to be in the rules?
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
CDranzer
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 11:43 am
Byond Username: CDranzer

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by CDranzer » #495451

Cobby wrote:
CDranzer wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:The policy literally already exists. Its already being enforced. The apocalypse has not happened.
Is it actually in the rules though? Last I checked it isn't officially stated, it's just one of those things that people sort of take for granted like lynching for daniel.
Since when does every policy needs to be in the rules?
I mean I tend to hold the opinion that a good administration policy should be compiled into a single legible public document rather than strewn haphazardly over a bunch of forum posts within a hive of concentrated autism but maybe I'm just old fashioned that way
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Cobby » #495453

You can't have the complexity of our game and a legible document.

We could have A document, but it would be pretty overbearing and still probably wouldn't capture everything down the precision you'd like.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Shadowflame909 » #495457

We do document headmin rulings though

It's how I can state all my precedent and avoid people calling me braindead.

Works half the time though.
► Show Spoiler
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Cobby » #495474

Right but it doesn't matter when the system is easily overturn-able by the next set of headmins tbh.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
teepeepee
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:21 am
Byond Username: Teepeepee

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by teepeepee » #495479

Cobby wrote:Right but it doesn't matter when the system is easily overturn-able by the next set of headmins tbh.
it does matter because they apply until they are overturned, and the overturning shouldn't work retroactively, as in, punishing someone for doing something that was allowed but the headmins decide that it is no longer acceptable and punish him as if it was forbidden at the time he did it(but it does, as we've seen with escalation policy)
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Cobby » #495487

me no like escalation policy enforcement so me no comment.

As for antag rolling, we HAVE banned people for it in the past so unless you can show me on the doll where it permits antag rolling this argument doesn't really hold.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
Gamarr
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:10 pm
Byond Username: Gamarr

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Gamarr » #495845

Broken fucking record incoming:
This shit ain't fixing until you massively change how you handle the game and its foundation with its direction!

You can't really 'police' antag rolling because it means the admins are paying attention every single damn round start and enforce this shit.
How much did they enforce naming standards?

There's too much democracy here because soon as you do something, the shitball later on can easily just derail long-term plans and coding just because.
Get a fucking leader and make a plan for tg, or stay this way.
User avatar
Yakumo_Chen
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:08 pm
Byond Username: Yakumo Chen

Re: Antag Rolling

Post by Yakumo_Chen » #495911

You can police it though

and they are
Image
Image
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users