[NecromancerAnne] NoxVS - Excessive Validhunting Note Appeal

[NoxVS]

Byond account and character name: NoxVS / James Knox

Banning admin: NecromancerAnne

Ban type (What are you banned from?): Note Appeal

Ban reason and length: Note Appeal

Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2019-07-05 05:36:08, Round 112383

Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Sybil
Your side of the story: I was a chaplain and saw someone from security announce to open up the cremator. This was just after a changeling sighting report so I run down to open it up for them. I get to the chapel and sure enough there is an officer there with the body of the changeling who the AI had confirmed the existence of and called out by name. The AI also mentioned they had absorbed someone, meaning they were harmful. I go to let them in but before I can a cyborg swoops in and carries the person away. As I mentioned earlier the AI had confirmed that person was a changeling, revoking their human protections. At this point the cyborg should be considering the person as nonhuman and harmful and is still saving them so me and the officer chase them down. While I was told I should have looked for other options if I had stopped the tell the AI to do something then the changeling who was fleshmending at this point which would have given away his nonhuman status had the borg examined them, could easily just remove his cuffs with his changeling ability and run off to kill more people. The officer flashes them but the changeling remains buckled and we don't know how to get them unbuckled. At this point we cant get the changeling off and I can see no reasonable way to go about this other than killing the cyborg to get the changeling so I decide I will kill the cyborg, deal with the changeling, and then immediately go back and revive the cyborg. I figured it wouldn't be a problem considering it had been (unknowingly due to missing messages) breaking its laws and it would only be out for a short period of time. After I help cremate the changeling I return to the spot where the borg had been killed but find they have been taken away to what I assumed was robotics. Since the was being revived I assumed that was that and moved on. Shortly after I was messaged by Necromancer and then later was given a note.

Why you think you should be unbanned: The cyborg was breaking law 1 by saving the changeling. Best case scenario it missed the AI's declaration of them being a changeling and was accidentally breaking its laws. Worst case scenario it was subverted. In both scenarios it is going against Asimov and helping the survival of a harmful changeling who had already killed. Either way there was no way the cyborg could be reasonably dealt with while also stopping the changeling. I intended to return them to the round but someone beat me to it and the cyborg was dead for less than a little over 2 minutes in total. It was a temporary solution that I took when there weren't any other viable solutions in this time sensitive matter. Another problem I have with the note is it seems largely opinionated, focusing on me "validhunting" by trying to kill the changeling and acting like I was running around trying to kill every single antag

Sorry if I formatted anything wrong, first appeal.

[knacker48]

I was a chaplain

After I help cremate the chaplain

This is probably just a spelling error but I'll ask anyways. Did you mean to say 'after i help cremate the changeling'?

[NoxVS]

I was a chaplain

After I help cremate the chaplain

This is probably just a spelling error but I'll ask anyways. Did you mean to say 'after i help cremate the changeling'?

Thanks for pointing it out, fixed.

[NecromancerAnne]

Hey sorry for the delay on this.

I want to preface this by saying that the warning isn't necessarily a permanent black mark on your character to which all admins will judge you. It's just a note to say what has been addressed with you for other admins sakes. People can choose to ignore it if they so please and in this case it is largely contextual but in a few months time will hold no real weight.

Additionally the borg wasn't likely informed properly by the AI given that it said this after the borgs death and revival:

[2019-07-05 05:24:54.549] SAY: SingularityMeLL/(GUARDIAN BOT) "i think it was a ling" (AI Chamber (33, 138, 2))

It was in a conversation in binary about the situation. The borg was misinformed and wasn't aware of the situation.

These situations can turn up and happen and if it let the ling have a chance at escape then...yes it could have eacaped. I did make mention in the note that removing corpses from borgs is janky as all hell.

But you never attempted to law 2 it down (and if it refused then we wouldn't be having this conversation since it was violating it's laws over a corpse), or tell it directly that it's a changeling. You just killed it. I didn't think that to be a fair way to act. Especially when you take players even temporarily out of the round to secure an antag kill.

Honestly though another element to this is the inability to remove corpses from borgs without spinning the body off. So that honestly contributed a lot to this scenario. I made note of that in the note I gave you. I tried to acknowledge as much of the scenarios stakes in that note that I felt relevant. It wasn't just a terse "Killed a borg to validhunt" because it was a situation with some nuance. So I feel the note is fine as is. It's just a request to slow down a bit.

If someone legitimately used that to ban you unless it was something extreme and already rulesbreaking (like detonating a bomb as a nonantag), then that would be a really silly thing to do.

[oranges]

I want to preface this by saying that the warning isn't necessarily a permanent black mark on your character to which all admins will judge you. It's just a note to say what has been addressed with you for other admins sakes. People can choose to ignore it if they so please and in this case it is largely contextual but in a few months time will hold no real weight.

kor already proved this wasn't true

[Arianya]

Seeing as the responsible admin feels the note is fine and this has gone 3 weeks without comment, seems resolved.