War Ops 2, electric boogaloo.

[Krusvik]

I’ll keep my sentiment simple.

War Ops is not fun, and the rules as written only make it worse.

It’s a game type that blatantly disregards round progression by giving us the end of the story just as it begins. There is no need for jobs, departments, or their department heads. Because of that dynamic, it should be treated with no more seriousness than as a meme round, and should either be ruling-light or delegated to admin event only, where effort is required to make it enjoyable.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[zxaber]

Counterpoint:
Nuke Ops is not fun, and War Ops is the only thing that makes it almost bearable.

Anyway, even admin event rounds don't allow players to ignore rules.

[Gigapuddi420]

Ahelping before you off yourself isn't a hard ask. Any admin can decide to make exceptions when it comes to holding heads of staff accountable for playing the role but it's just good practice to try and get command positions replaced; especially now that dynamic is coming along to mix it up. Honestly it's kind of sad Heads of Staff would rather not play during War Ops rather then lead from the front and it annoys me when I see people basically riot when they see the mode because they want all access or to take the disk from the Captain.

[Krusvik]

Why is it sad that someone doesn’t want to play a game that isn’t fun? Nuke Ops at least maintains a veneer of mystery and drama, War Ops as a clusterfuck start to finish. Furthermore I didn’t state it should be rule free or that admin rounds have no rules, I said it should be rule-light and I ask that we’re more leinant when dealing with problematic game modes.

[CPTANT]

Wrong. Its fun just fine.

Departments doing their job vastly increases how prepared the crew is once the ops arrive.

[Krusvik]

Maybe some people don't play ss13 for the team death match?

[wesoda25]

War ops is so fucking shit I’d rather, much much rather, have stealth ops (which are actually fun) or blitz ops (unbalanced but still preferable). I literally constantly suicide on those rounds, not to roll for ghost roles (that shit is gay don’t do that), but just to save myself from the annoying garbage the gamemode is. Every war ops round is the exact same, and even if you do enjoy combat theres no guarantee you’ll get it.

That being said I think its a pretty unique gamemode that’s balanced really well, and as much as I hate it I can get why newer players (and some old ones) like it. Making the ruling softer on it would be nice, but that also seems as if it would enable players to ignore head positions even more and give the meta protection in the rules.

[wubli]

note: this is my opinion as a player, please don't take it as a ruling
i love war ops, and if anything, it just makes some people work harder, but towards different things: upgrade cloning, make mechs, make enough healing chems. i do think it's, for some, greytide fest with all access, but the concept of the whole station uniting against five dudes with a lot of guns is amazing to me. I don't play SS13 for the team deatmatch, I barely like playing antag, I usually just give away my TC and use it as an excuse to kill someone without consequences if the opportunity presents itself. war ops is not the entire game and it's not even a separate gamemode, ops can still decide not to declare war. i think it's fair to not like a game mode but as a head you should either ahelp and let yourself be taken by a ghost or make sure someone else will do what you were supposed to do.
something that's pretty common and i don't like is how the captain is pretty much valid if they don't want to give out all access or the disk. as long as they have a security team, they should be able to decide what happens, who to give weapons to and whatnot. if anything, i think the problem is not the gamemode, but the way it's played because of the culture of the server and the free valids

[Krusvik]

Game modes have been removed from rotation before for being too stagnant, I foresee problems for war ops on the horizon in a similar fashion to others before it, perhaps starting here as some players begin to strike out against the mundanity of repeat exposure.

i think the problem is not the gamemode, but the way it's played because of the culture of the server and the free valids

So it's a question of etiquette, does the game serve the community or does the community serve the game?

Either way, I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

...it annoys me when I see people basically riot when they see the mode because they want all access or to take the disk from the Captain.

...something that's pretty common and i don't like is how the captain is pretty much valid if they don't want to give out all access or the disk.

So if you agree it's a problem, what do you think the solution is? I'd love to know, because I don't think there even is one.

I have a lot to say about how dreadfully unfun, uninteresting, and boring I find war ops, but I wouldn't be saying anything that hasn't been said about the topic before.
If you like it you like it and my opinion isn't going to change your mind, if you dislike it I'm just preaching to the choir and beating a dead horse.

I guess I'll leave it at this; every time war is declared I know exactly what to expect, to a T.
Chain of command going completely out the window (the bar isn't high in other game modes, but war ops makes it just plain comically pointless to be a head of staff or sec officer), nearly nobody lifting a finger to do their assigned job, majority of players wordlessly scrambling around hoarding weapons and building windows, nobody talking to each other about anything that's not "OPS AA ARMORY DISK AMMO", no interesting player interaction, no memorable stories being told, no suspense, no comedy, nothing. War ops does not make me feel like I'm playing a goofy, social & roleplay based space station sandbox, it makes me feel like I'm playing the world's shittiest and most complex third-person shooter. The most entertaining thing you'll ever seen in war ops is "haha they killed an op in a funny way, based".

tab key, "suicide", enter key

[oranges]

can't believe im gonna fight side by side with a catgirl

[Krusvik]

I guess I'll leave it at this; every time war is declared I know exactly what to expect, to a T.
Chain of command going completely out the window (the bar isn't high in other game modes, but war ops makes it just plain comically pointless to be a head of staff or sec officer), nearly nobody lifting a finger to do their assigned job, majority of players wordlessly scrambling around hoarding weapons and building windows, nobody talking to each other about anything that's not "OPS AA ARMORY DISK AMMO", no interesting player interaction, no memorable stories being told, no suspense, no comedy, nothing.:

Therein lies a problem, immediate chaos without a proper response to a clear trend. It's starting to come apart at the seams.

[Krusvik]

Departments doing their job vastly increases how prepared the crew is once the ops arrive.

There's a difference between doing your department's job towards furthering your department because that's the role you enjoy, and doing your department's job towards a big crew v. ops fight that will end the round.

[terranaut]

I like War Ops and I think its fun. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Krusvik]

I like War Ops and I think its fun. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I’m glad. Can I ask you what roles you typically play during war ops, and your observations of the crew during the round?

[Ghilker]

When I play Ai I just set emergency maint access on and then watch the crew destroy themselves because, to be honest, what can you do as an asimov ai?
Most times I dont even get my laws changed so I just keep telling "no harmies pliz" over and over which is boring
If I'm not ai I just fuck off somewhere that they won't catch me or I do fusion and rad myself so if they come they'll die from rads... Or suicide cause is not a good mode

[deedubya]

The only problem I have with war ops as a game mode is that it gives an excuse to serial tiders to do whatever the fuck they want with the excuse of "it's war ops lmao". I tire of seeing the Cap/HoP/Warden/HoS get robusted for trying to keep order on the station with zero repercussions for the swarms of tiding shitbags trying to steal all the loot.

Apart from that, I like it as a mode. It's certainly far better than Wizard as far as crew involvement goes. You have a set time limit to prepare for an invasion that you know is coming. There are many things that you can choose to do to prepare for this event, none of which have to be "act like a tiding shitstain". Almost every job on the station still has some level of importance, even if you don't want to directly fight the ops.

[Krusvik]

.. Honestly it's kind of sad Heads of Staff would rather not play during War Ops rather then lead from the front and it annoys me when I see people basically riot when they see the mode because they want all access or to take the disk from the Captain.

... something that's pretty common and i don't like is how the captain is pretty much valid if they don't want to give out all access or the disk...

... Chain of command going completely out the window (the bar isn't high in other game modes, but war ops makes it just plain comically pointless to be a head of staff or sec officer), nearly nobody lifting a finger to do their assigned job, majority of players wordlessly scrambling around hoarding weapons and building windows, nobody talking to each other about anything that's not "OPS AA ARMORY DISK AMMO", no interesting player interaction, no memorable stories being told, no suspense, no comedy, nothing...

When I play Ai I just set emergency maint access on and then watch the crew destroy themselves because, to be honest, what can you do as an asimov ai?

The only problem I have with war ops as a game mode is that it gives an excuse to serial tiders to do whatever the fuck they want with the excuse of "it's war ops lmao". I tire of seeing the Cap/HoP/Warden/HoS get robusted for trying to keep order on the station with zero repercussions for the swarms of tiding shitbags trying to steal all the loot.

I'm changing tactics. It seems to me regardless of what we do, war ops is going to crash into the floor.

[wesoda25]

Oranges knows best

[lmwevil]

i like warops

[NoxVS]

just remove nuke ops entirely if you want war ops gone. War ops is the only way to make nuke ops fun, otherwise its a small handful of people having fun while the rest just having their round ended for them without anything they could have done

[Taylork2]

Nuke Ops is an iffy topic.

Personally I love War Ops, usually 3-5 people become overgeared monsters the crew has to try to fight against, using their own resources they manage to scrounge together before the arrival of the nuclear operatives right after the 20 minute mark. Personally I've had plenty of amazing fights and experiences in these rounds on both sides.
Though sometimes it's a stomp by the nuke ops who get a really good 1-2 items from the discounts with a 75% off(maybe the shielded hardsuit or syndicate bomb)(Really makes wearing the bomb suit during the early fight of War Ops a viable strategy)
Sometimes the nuke ops are all new players and the station has 1-3 robusting and powergaming gods with good RNG and completely repel the nuke ops.

Stealth Ops is bleh. If the stealth ops are good, they manage to enter in the station, kill 2-4 people, get the disk, arm the nuke in less than 3 minutes after arrival, and only one player managed to yell "OPS!!" in the radio before everyone gets the Nuke Alert. For most of the crew/players it was just a secret round with a sudden ending after 10-20 minutes into the round, mostly a waste of time.
When the Stealth Ops aren't good,they instead get robusted by SEC/greytiders and the last 1/2 members get picked off by people who threw away doing their normal routine for hunting down the last nuke op members hiding in maint, ending the round 15-30 minutes in.

[wesoda25]

I don't think war ops should be disabled. I simply think since its so well ingrained that command players have to play a certain way, they shouldn't be punished if they choose to suicide, since the station will not suffer without them. All head players are important for is their budget cards and access.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

i would prefer if the timer before ops can arrive would be shortened ( maybe centcomm sends some money + rnd points + ert or something cap can choose to balance the less time to prepare) as there is 0 threat and just people walking around to get aa guns and loot and pillage whatever wasnt stolen already by other people around the station to then probably just having to walk half the map to find out the ops landed on the opposite side and all died so you wasted 30 min to get geared up and didnt even get to shoot a bullet

[Krusvik]

New plan:

How would you change Nuke Ops based around the current meta as you understand it?

[Cobby]

The meta of everyone is now a captain is because

1) It's extremely important everyone (as in those that want to fight) is geared up to fight. The whole challenge mode is based around that anyways.
2) Why wouldn't you when the announcement acts as a traitor tester and everyone the station is now proven inno? Ops have all access in the form of emag, you're only hurting everyone else by making it difficult for others to assist.

You can't really have a mode that very blatantly establishes teams then expect people not to be mad when you're forcing the entire team to play handicap.

Disclaimer: I don't like the mode, so much I suicide whenever I see the message.

[Krusvik]

1) It's extremely important everyone (as in those that want to fight) is geared up to fight. The whole challenge mode is based around that anyways.
2) Why wouldn't you when the announcement acts as a traitor tester and everyone the station is now proven inno? Ops have all access in the form of emag, you're only hurting everyone else by making it difficult for others to assist

This is outside of my jurisdiction, but indulge me.

What if there were an NT supply drop in the form of weapons & armor at cargo, and furthermore ID access was lifted from all airlocks paired with a message from CentCom?

In addition to that, survivalist antags were thrown into the midst.

Not that I think this would solve the problem, moreso am curious about how it would affect the meta in this instance.

[Dr_bee]

It would be better to rework nuke ops entirely. When I said goon ops is best ops I mean it. Goon already solved the issue of nuke ops being too focused on the captain by making the ops actually have to defend the nuke. This leads to some interesting gameplay.

[Krusvik]

It would be better to rework nuke ops entirely. When I said goon ops is best ops I mean it. Goon already solved the issue of nuke ops being too focused on the captain by making the ops actually have to defend the nuke. This leads to some interesting gameplay.

Port goon code when?

[Cobby]

1) It's extremely important everyone (as in those that want to fight) is geared up to fight. The whole challenge mode is based around that anyways.
2) Why wouldn't you when the announcement acts as a traitor tester and everyone the station is now proven inno? Ops have all access in the form of emag, you're only hurting everyone else by making it difficult for others to assist

This is outside of my jurisdiction, but indulge me.

What if there were an NT supply drop in the form of weapons & armor at cargo, and furthermore ID access was lifted from all airlocks paired with a message from CentCom?

In addition to that, survivalist antags were thrown into the midst.

Not that I think this would solve the problem, moreso am curious about how it would affect the meta in this instance.

I wouldn't mind airlock change and having a sleeper agent that can sabotage during this time, but not sure i'm a huge fan of free guns/armor with no counterplay. The sleeper agent could mess with the console or do other things that prevents the guns ever getting into circulation, it wouldn't be possible with a fulton of freebies.

Disclaimer: I'd still suicide

[Krusvik]

I wouldn't mind airlock change and having a sleeper agent that can sabotage during this time, but not sure i'm a huge fan of free guns/armor with no counterplay...

Fair enough, I could see access being lifted from all but head offices, just to prevent them from being swarmed as well for their goodies while they're adjusting to the new narrative.

"Disclaimer: I'd still suicide"

Same.

[NecromancerAnne]

War Ops is actually very fun, iunno why people hate it so much. The opportunity to go up against uneven odds, either as a one man powerhouse or having to face that powerhouse with what you have gathered together is very fun. Granted, war ops can be boring if you're always late to the fight but when it's on, it's great. Fighting shit like mechs in a 1v1 always keeps me entertained.

I see a lot of people talk up 'stealth ops' like that's even remotely a playable experience. We have people who game this shit as hard as physically possible and it is easy as piss. While we can pretend people treat the mode like a surprise attack on the station, really, it's a bunch of overpowered arseholes with semiautomatic assault weapons capping the captain while hopped up on battle drugs and spiriting away the disk before the alarm is even raised, then the round ends in a boom.

Or they fail miserably. As ops are want to do. No amount of powerful gear can make a player good.

Lemme give you the Blitz Special. It is basically foolproof. You will only fail if the AI happened to get very lucky spotting you and traps you, because the eye in the sky has a ton of stalling power and it could end up being your end.

1. Get CQC, an emag and stimpack (adrenals aren't usable for this anymore but it used to be adrenals). You need nothing else except maybe some c4 but since you have tc left nothing prevents you buying some in an emergency.
2. Arrive on station.
3. Follow the pinpointer.
4. Kill everyone you meet along the way with invisible sleep hands. Increase ability to prevent being called out by removing hardsuit. Try to stick to places that won't get you spotted easily.
4. Find captain pissing in dorms or something. Give him the sleep hands. If he's in the brig, give all nearby cops and captain the stun hands and fill them with lead.
5. Take disk.
6. Go back to ship and arm nuke and plant it on station.
7. Leave with disk.

You have now won Nuclear Operatives. The earlier in a round you do this, the higher your success rate. Waiting just lowers it more and more. This is shit.

My suggestion is that War Ops is the mode where operatives are blowing up the station with a nuke. Normal ops actually have other objectives that they need to fulfill that are also serious sabotage but not actually round ending IMMEDIATELY. This could include acquiring the means to nuke the station in a more prolonged method or alternatively not at all and just doing some other team based objective, which allows for nukies to engage in more convoluted plans and elaborate acts of antagonism while still being similar enough to other antagonists and making the round more interesting.