"What Is and Isn't Shitcurity, A discussion"

[Reyn]

The title's probably not the best wording for the intent of a topic in the history of this forum, but I've noticed a lot of... well... Situations where there's some discrepency on what is "Shitcurity" or overall bad sec play or not.

It's not always ahelps, and it's sometimes just IC where this is the issue, But a certain clusterfuck of a round brought attention to, well, How "Shitcurity" can be interpereted.

That round, I was in brig, with lethal rounds in my shotgun. The rest of sec was nonlethally, or, supposed to be nonlethally, Dealing with rioters with riot armor and flashbangs and disablers... at least thats what most of us were doing.

Then someone comes into the brig with an id with OBVIOUSLY more access than it should have, and starts going into the lockers. I fire a shot, they go apeshit, They steal from armoury in the mess, and then they yell shitcurity. Which got me thinking. Was it shitcurity to do that? Were other things, Like officers essentially invading and occupying other divisions as it seems fit, shitcurity. Is arresting a head of staff shitcurity?

By "Shitcurity" I mean a sec officer having an extreme and/ or unwarranted response, or doing an extreme or unwarranted thing. Am I in the wrong? Was it alright for the crew to declare war on sec for doing riot control? It wasn't revs.

What is, and what's Not, Shitcurity.

I have to go soon, but I'd like to see some policy discussion on security behaviour and when it is, or isn't, alright for crew to start screwing with them to lethal or severe degrees, and when an officer is, or isnt, justified to do what they did.

I apologize if my wording wasn't the best. I made this in a rush. This is , basically, Sec behaviour and anti sec behaviour discussion

[Nabski]

When someone else does it to me: It's shitcurity.

When I do it to them: I did what had to be done in the moment.

[Reyn]

That... that actually summarizes the issue pretty well

it's often a double standard. Something you'd do as sec and see as perfectly reasonable would be seen as fucking extreme bullshit by others... which Is why i'm discussing.

[Sandshark808]

You were completely in the right. When people are breaking into the armory for no reason, whether it's Revs or not, you are 100% within your rights to shoot to kill. At worst they can be cloned later and face trial.

People enjoy self-antagging security because it makes for a good bit of fun on a greenshift (I certainly do it myself), but it does often go too far.

[Istoprocent1]

They steal from armoury in the mess, and then they yell shitcurity.

Full stop. Whatever happens to them once they stroll into the armory is on them, whether its you letting them do their thing or you blasting them to the shadowrealms with buckshot and anything in between.

In my opinion shitcurity is something in the lines of this:

* Completely random searches on Green and Blue based on "gut feeling" and nothing else.
* Is oblivious about the Space Law and thus giving either too light (say 3 minutes for Hand Teleporter) or too heavy sentences (10 minutes for breaking a kitchen window).

Anything else is pretty much part of the job.

[Calomel]

Honestly, I'd also take into account the possibility of someone being an antag. As an antag you would benefit from
people distrusting Security and rioting, because the more chaos there is, the better for you.

Apart from that, Sec is the role with both the most deserved hate, and undeserved hate. People in general hate being arrested
because it "kills their fun" and therefore they complain about sec unfairly, even when they are doing their job properly,
On the other hand, when a sec is actually shitsec, it can ruin the whole round for a number of people,
and such things are difficult to forget (being killed when you did nothing to deserve it just feels bad).

i'd chalk this one to a bad apple rotting the tree. Every shitcurity poisons the entire Sec department, and the person
who is supposed to protect you form it (The lawyer) seems very ineffective in doing so.

[Grazyn]

Communicating with prisoners/suspects as much as you reasonably can is a good way to start. Wordlessly throwing suspects in the brig with the occasional "you're wanted, shut up" in response to their questions is the #1 reason people call sec shitcurity.

[Nabski]

Communicating with prisoners/suspects as much as you reasonably can is a good way to start. Wordlessly throwing suspects in the brig with the occasional "you're wanted, shut up" in response to their questions is the #1 reason people call sec shitcurity.

I'm much happier to take a 10 minute sentence if the person tells me why I was arrested than I am for a two minute sentence where they are completely silent but strip me and check my bags.

As others have said it's hard to codify what is and isn't quasi-rule breaking.

I consider anyone riding the secway to be shitcurity because of how often it blocks attacks. The biggest unintentional power gaming.

[Analbifida]

Examples of shitcurity:
-harm batoning for no reason
-stripping naked and buckle cuffing
-not healing prisoners
-not saying anything during arrests
-unfair times for minor crimes
And the big one, treating every minor thing that happens as an excuse to do the above.

[Atlanta-Ned]

The wiki has a lengthy article on shitcurity https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Shitcurity

[teepeepee]

Examples of shitcurity:
-harm batoning for no reason
-stripping naked and buckle cuffing
-not healing prisoners
-not saying anything during arrests
-unfair times for minor crimes
And the big one, treating every minor thing that happens as an excuse to do the above.

1. I forgot to turn off harm intent sorry
2. I like spacemen wearing orange
3. I'm not a doctor
4. I can type your whole crime history 0.2 times before you're snatched by a faceless grey blob that nanotrasen insists works for them
5. Subjective
the important thing to avoid beig salty as security is playing both sides
try alternating being an assistant and tiding all ovet with being an officer
you will appreciate both and realise your fun is cooperative, not competitive
you will get more robust as a result and you will enjoy the game more

[Reyn]

So, Another potential shitcurity thing I can talk about.

Making a militia out of mindshielded tiders during revs and trusting them like they're full force sec.

Killing people off of mere suspicion of being revs or just off of not being mindshielded

Invading cargo, Physically abusing the QM, and spending all of cargo's exhausted budget on mindshield implants, just because the qm didn't do so already, Without ASKING the qm to do so. With the QM not being a rev.

Giving a few minute sentence for breaking into the ai upload/fucking with the ai's laws.

Disarming or stunning other sec officers as HOS over arresting someone, even though said person has committed breaking and entering, Theft of security gear, and so on, with the officers actively using nonlethal methods to arrest, and the HOS interrupting said arrest, leading to officers being injured. (That has happened, and I won't fucking forget it)

Now, Things which have been accused of shitcurity

Sec officers attempting to arrest the RD after they broke into the sec outpost in Research and stole the locker's contents.

Sec officers arresting heads of staff for any reason

Sec officers not returning tools used for breakins to tiders.

Now back to things which are likely shitcurity,

The Detective immediately either modifying their gun to use more lethal rounds (If thats still a thing) or immediately printing out surplus ammo so they can go revolver fucking ocelot on anyone they don't like.

[Istoprocent1]

A shitcurity also tries to police other security members. I personally never intervene, when a loyalty implanted security member does something questionable to a non-loyalty implanted individuals. If they feel that it is justified, then its not my place to question it.

There have been times, where I catch a bad guy and an incompetent warden or hos either releases them or even worse beat me down and steal my shit. These are the times, when I ask myself, why am I going through all the trouble and not just sending valids straight to the shadowrealm with some premium quality buckshot.

[Reyn]

Also, for when I give examples, "Ahelp this" is, while good advice, not always helpful. I've had occurences where I've ahelped these sorts of scenarios and It's been marked as IC issue.

[skoglol]

If you arrest the clown for slips, you are shitcurity.
If you refuse to talk to your prisoners, you are shitcurity.
If you steal legal items from your prisoners, you are shitcurity.
If your goto sop with a prisoner is either not setting a timer, or going straight for perma for tiny crimes, you are shitcurity.
If you as a detective chase someone and shoot wildly down the hallways with your revolver, you are shitcurity.

These are but a few examples.

[ATHATH]

too light (say 3 minutes for Hand Teleporter)

https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... e0-189.jpg

[Reyn]

Honestly, I feel like Sec is of one of three spots. "Holy fuck What's going on" but goes by the books where they can when not panicked, "He's ok, He just broke into the ai upload and tried to start an ethnic cleansing progrom" lenient type people, who only give said fuckwads like 2 minutes, and the "PICK UP THAT CA-" *Interrupted by screams of random crew boi having every last bone in their fucking body broken by harmbaton for no fucking reason* types. Honestly....

But yeah, Too lenient on potential nonantags is another sort of shitcurity

[Calomel]

Honestly, I feel like Sec is of one of three spots. "Holy fuck What's going on" but goes by the books where they can when not panicked, "He's ok, He just broke into the ai upload and tried to start an ethnic cleansing progrom" lenient type people, who only give said fuckwads like 2 minutes, and the "PICK UP THAT CA-" *Interrupted by screams of random crew boi having every last bone in their fucking body broken by harmbaton for no fucking reason* types. Honestly....

For as much as it is easy to just blame Sec, at the same time it is the "victim" that is at fault. There's no way to win because every person
believes he is in the right, which makes judgements very hard to make.

For example, if sec calls you out and tells you to stop, you should do so. Most poeple won't, they will just run away and then you'll have to play hide-and-seek
for 5+ minutes because some tider didn't want to be bothered to see why Sec wanted him to stop, even if he is innocent.
A search takes like, 3 minutes at best. Sec isn't going to just steal your insuls (Lord knows Engisec can get insul glvoes for everyone with
much more ease anyways, or just order them from cargo); they just want to see if the bloody asisstant who came from maint tunnels
did something he shouldn't. it really goes both ways and it's a constant issue for everyone.

And yeah, Sec's job is to be an obstacle to the antags. I'm not saying sec has to 100% stop all antags forever, but they should be seen as a real inconvenience
at the least, and a real threat to an incompetent antag. I don't even think coding or policy is an issue here, the problem is the people themselves,
and i don't know how one would solve such a problem.

[Istoprocent1]

too light (say 3 minutes for Hand Teleporter)

https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... e0-189.jpg

Bruh moment.

Capital Crimes

These crimes can result in Execution, Permanent Prison Time, Permanent Labor Camp Time, or Cyborgization.
Only the Captain, HoS, and Warden can authorize a Permanent Sentence.
Only the Captain can authorize an Execution or Forced Cyborgization.



Now, if the warden or HoS are being retarded and don't follow the law, then there is a problem as your incentive to catch the perps alive is completely non-existant. Might as well buckshot the perps then and there (following Rule 4) and then if warden or HoS want to deal with you IC for Murder, then just let it happen because its their prerogative by the Space Law and by the Rules.

[Reyn]

It it fair game to buckshot an assistant, as warden, For breaking into brig to steal shit, Or should I go nonlethal?

Additionally, Is Uploading kill laws into the ai Grand sabotauge?

[ATHATH]

too light (say 3 minutes for Hand Teleporter)

https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... e0-189.jpg

Bruh moment.

Capital Crimes

These crimes can result in Execution, Permanent Prison Time, Permanent Labor Camp Time, or Cyborgization.
Only the Captain, HoS, and Warden can authorize a Permanent Sentence.
Only the Captain can authorize an Execution or Forced Cyborgization.



Now, if the warden or HoS are being retarded and don't follow the law, then there is a problem as your incentive to catch the perps alive is completely non-existant. Might as well buckshot the perps then and there (following Rule 4) and then if warden or HoS want to deal with you IC for Murder, then just let it happen because its their prerogative by the Space Law and by the Rules.

>citing Space Law
>arguing that you should be able to execute criminals unilaterally as a sec officer just because you don't like how "lenient" the warden and/or HoS are being with their punishments

This post right here brings up another point: We should really change/update the Space Law section of the wiki to reflect how we actually expect our sec officers to act. This kind of thing right here is exactly why some sec officers become Krokodils who permabrig or execute people for relatively minor crimes- they do that because that's what Space Law tells them they're expected/supposed to do.

I'd also like to clarify that if someone is stealing, like, the vault documents or something else that has no value to them outside of being a traitor item, then yeah, treat 'em like an antag. If they've just taken the hand teleporter so they can cheese the pride ruin or the CE's blueprints as a chef so they can expand what's considered to be the "Kitchen" for their CQC, though, you really shouldn't be executing them for that.

[Reyn]

Grand theft isn't a relatively minor crime.

Additionally the Chef should not make the entire fucking station the kitchen, that's just powergamey/tidey as hell.

[Istoprocent1]

There is always the option to get a letter with captain's stamp on it or find a way to get the captain vouch for you and there isn't any problems. The problem arises, when a random dude decides that "today i am going to steal the hand teleporter for my gimmick" and expects nothing happen to them when they are eventually caught. Another problem is that some of the feelmins are probably going to grill you fnr and you have to always weigh whether its worth the drama or not in that particular situation, even though you are in the right to treat people who commit Grand Theft as antags.

[PKPenguin321]

Shitcurity IMO is a major issue with:
- Sec that will break into your apartment and try to arrest you for telling them to leave (this is especially an issue in genetics when sec busts down a window to get powers).
- Sec that never speaks, ever. If you don't know why you're being arrested, good luck, because this guy won't tell you (if he even knows). I just ahelp these guys because they're virtually indistinguishable from griefers who will literally arrest you for no reason. About 80% of them then have the gall to be offended that you would ahelp them, which leads to...
- Sec that does shitty things, gets ahelped, and then punishes you ICly for ahelping them. "Oh, snitching to the gods, huh? Lemme just add another 3 minutes here." This is a straight up bannable thing to do but I've seen at least one case where an admin did not ban.

[Istoprocent1]

Shitcurity IMO is a major issue with:
- Sec that will break into your apartment and try to arrest you for telling them to leave (this is especially an issue in genetics when sec busts down a window to get powers).
- Sec that never speaks, ever. If you don't know why you're being arrested, good luck, because this guy won't tell you (if he even knows). I just ahelp these guys because they're virtually indistinguishable from griefers who will literally arrest you for no reason. About 80% of them then have the gall to be offended that you would ahelp them, which leads to...
- Sec that does shitty things, gets ahelped, and then punishes you ICly for ahelping them. "Oh, snitching to the gods, huh? Lemme just add another 3 minutes here." This is a straight up bannable thing to do but I've seen at least one case where an admin did not ban.

1. If sec is breaking into your department fnr, then they are in the wrong.
2. This can go both ways. There is little reason to speak, if the arrested guy is screaming his lungs out and telling you that you are a shitcurity and so on. The right way to do it is to get the cuffs on, get them to a safe location either a security checkpoint or brig and then start talking. These steps ensure that you and the other guy have plenty of time to figure things out and neither of you are putting yourselves in the harm's way just because "muh RP". Even in real life cops try to get you in cuffs in order to minimize the chance of you pulling a concealed weapon on them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5-DNbBDSTo

And this is reaction times in real time with the people being able to use voice and not having to type it out in a laggy byond game.

Why non-compliance or not cuffing them is a threat:

NSFW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsrC5QV_Yrc

While this is in the youtube's family friendly content, it can be disturbing to some viewers and its better to tag it with NSFW.

3. If a choice is perma and execution and the guy ahelps, then you just execute them. If its not a perma sentence, then just ignore that, because chances are that unless you are running into an incompetent/shitty admin you won't have any problems. After all the other guy is trying to get you punished OOCly over an IC situation, which is the lowest but very prevalent thing in SS13.

[PKPenguin321]

Shitcurity IMO is a major issue with:
- Sec that will break into your apartment and try to arrest you for telling them to leave (this is especially an issue in genetics when sec busts down a window to get powers).
- Sec that never speaks, ever. If you don't know why you're being arrested, good luck, because this guy won't tell you (if he even knows). I just ahelp these guys because they're virtually indistinguishable from griefers who will literally arrest you for no reason. About 80% of them then have the gall to be offended that you would ahelp them, which leads to...
- Sec that does shitty things, gets ahelped, and then punishes you ICly for ahelping them. "Oh, snitching to the gods, huh? Lemme just add another 3 minutes here." This is a straight up bannable thing to do but I've seen at least one case where an admin did not ban.

1. If sec is breaking into your department fnr, then they are in the wrong.
2. This can go both ways. There is little reason to speak, if the arrested guy is screaming his lungs out and telling you that you are a shitcurity and so on. The right way to do it is to get the cuffs on, get them to a safe location either a security checkpoint or brig and then start talking. These steps ensure that you and the other guy have plenty of time to figure things out and neither of you are putting yourselves in the harm's way just because "muh RP". Even in real life cops try to get you in cuffs in order to minimize the chance of you pulling a concealed weapon on them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5-DNbBDSTo

And this is reaction times in real time with the people being able to use voice and not having to type it out in a laggy byond game.

Why non-compliance or not cuffing them is a threat:

NSFW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsrC5QV_Yrc

While this is in the youtube's family friendly content, it can be disturbing to some viewers and its better to tag it with NSFW.

3. If a choice is perma and execution and the guy ahelps, then you just execute them. If its not a perma sentence, then just ignore that, because chances are that unless you are running into an incompetent/shitty admin you won't have any problems. After all the other guy is trying to get you punished OOCly over an IC situation, which is the lowest but very prevalent thing in SS13.

Yeah no fuck off, if I did literally nothing wrong and get arrested silently and you don't tell me shit even after I've been asking you politely in the brig to tell me what I did wrong, then I ahelp because I suspect you're griefing, and then you execute me, you need to catch a perma sec ban at the absolute minimum.

[Reyn]

Usually, when a sec officer stops moving to speak, in my experience at least, when it comes to dealing with most people, The person you're dealing with is either, A. (Rarest case) Actually reasonable and sane and is willing to talk things over, A bastion of sanity and goodwill in this land of madness and malice, B. (Second rarest) Going to listen, then just say "It's justified" and yell shitcurity at you if you even try to arrest you, C. Has already sprinted halfway across the station or D. Already in position to disarm spam and/or attack you.

If you CAN talk it over, great. If you can't, Shit sucks.

Also, Let's make a distinction.

"Invading" a department means that sec Has not asked permission to be in there, has no good reason to be in there, and/or is just screwing with peoples jobs where they are.

Wordlessly arresting for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON, GENUINELY NO REASON, other than wanting to or wanting to hunt for dem alids, is scummy as fuck, but if someone's being arrested for something like, breaking in, or being seen assaulting someone, or so on, I'd suggest using one of the voice lines as an indicator to stop moving and establish to everyone in earshot to stop what they're doing, so sec can talk. If the fucker bolts for it anyways, ARrest.

[Istoprocent1]

Yeah no fuck off, if I did literally nothing wrong and get arrested silently and you don't tell me shit even after I've been asking you politely in the brig to tell me what I did wrong, then I ahelp because I suspect you're griefing, and then you execute me, you need to catch a perma sec ban at the absolute minimum.

Don't get me wrong, PK. I agree with you to some extent. I am saying that the talking should be done after you and the officer are both in a secure location. If the guy refuses to tell you, then ahelp away. They can't execute you for ahelping, unless you actually did something that made you execution worthy (ie. antaggy stuff). Ahelping to get out of perma sentence, if you are guilty that is, is a bitch move and I hope players like these would catch ban baiting bans at the absolute minimum.

EDIT: I am assuming that you are referring to "you" as "one" and not me specifically, since we never had such an encounter to my knowledge.

[Reyn]

Let's not resort to profanity towards eachother and be civil. Wordless arrests often happen because people either are too used to something being ok that they're supprised when they're on the run they get arrested for it, or because sec gets caught in the moment and/or forgets that their gas mask has a voice thing.

Also, Lethal force on brig breakins if you're warden. yes or no?

[Istoprocent1]

Let's not resort to profanity towards eachother and be civil. Wordless arrests often happen because people either are too used to something being ok that they're supprised when they're on the run they get arrested for it, or because sec gets caught in the moment and/or forgets that their gas mask has a voice thing.

Also, Lethal force on brig breakins if you're warden. yes or no?

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules

6. While it is up to the discretion of the security player, lethal force may be used on a mob of players trying to force entry into the brig. Additionally, lethal force may be used immediately on anyone trying to enter the armory, is in the armory, or is leaving it.

Mob is defined by more than 1, so if at least 2 people storm the brig, you can open up with lethals. No questions asked. At least its how it should be, then again I was dragged into some drama over not using lethals and permabrigging one of such guys.

[confused rock]

why's this a policy discussion again?

[knacker48]

why's this a policy discussion again?

Cause no ones moved it yet

[Reyn]

Where should this be moved to?

[Atlanta-Ned]

Where should this be moved to?

The trash.

[Qbmax32]

BASED

[terranaut]

Priority, priority, priority.
It's really all I care about. When I get arrested for greytiding that's on me but when the AI and Crew suddenly yell NUKIES and you take your sweet ass time processing me for a 2 minute brig sentence for shoving the clown into a wall rather than kicking me out (preferably with a gun or baton) then you're a fucking retard. A lot of players, not just security, have their priorities really fucking ass-backwards and are too stiff to change them on the fly and that's all that really bothers me.