[Naloac] Noted for Self Defense

[CrazyClown12]

Byond account and character name: CrazyClown12

Banning admin: Naloac

Ban type: Note, I would like it removed.

Ban reason and length: Note,

>Killed someone for throwing them a loaded gun on a wizard round doing minimal damage. Shot them with a syringe labelled lethal injection. pretty bad case of over escalation.
(I dispute the accuracy of this later).

Time ban was placed: 2019-09-12 16:34:36

Server you were playing when banned: Terry, 118441

Dynamic on Terry. 2 Wizards are working together and murderboning (so was a traitor, though I did not know that at the time of the note). I arm up in my gamer gear and start working towards taking them out. One of them successfully beats the shit out of me using timestop and almost into crit, but I recover and head to the Captain's office, where the wizards were last spotted.

I stand outside the Captain's office. Nicki Shazam is there and throws a rifle at me (one of the wizard had summoned guns so there were a lot). I was at 100% health, having just healed up so I can see that I have taken damage. I don't know if it's an accident so I don't react. They then do it again, wordlessly and unprovoked. At this point, to my surprise, they are clearly trying to hurt me so I tell them to stop. I do not want to get in an escalation conflict with a shitter when there is a wizard spamming timestop around the corner. At this point, they attack me for a third time. They are clearly a danger and I want t be able to focus on the wizard that is killing everyone, not the assistant that is damaging me for zero reason. I then pull out the only weapon I have on me, a syringe gun loaded with an execution syringe. The syringe was intended for the wizard but being as there was a clear and present threat, I fired it into Nicki and proceeded to walk towards medbay to heal my wounds.

I was then surprised to receive a bwoink from Naloac asking me what happened between me and the assitant that attacked me. When I said they started attacking me for no reason and did not stop when I asked them to. I literally gave them an oppurtunity to stop and there would have been no repercussions for them. They instead made it clear that they were going to continue to attack me for no reason. It is in not unreasonable to fight back when someone is clearly trying to harm you. Lepi suggested I should have 'beaten them up' with my hands or something, despite the fact that there was a wizard spamming timestop and murderboning literally around the corner. Lepi then suggested that they were no threat despite them repeatedly performing an action that harmed me. They then used the argument that the item that was being thrown at me did 3 damage, despite the fact that I had no way of knowing how much damage was being dealt. Further Lepi stated that they were no threat despite the fact that they were continuously doing literal harm and there was nothing to suggest they were going to stop.

I did not overescalate. When someone decided they were going to physically harm me, I asked them to stop. When they continued to harm me, I stopped them myself. I did not remove them from the round in any way and left the body exactly where it fell.

Further more, the note written about me is false.

Firstly, I had no idea how much damage the gun does because I'm not some powergamer that memorises the throw damage of every concievable item. The fact that the majority of tg are not shitters that physically throw every item they find at other people to damage them meant I had never been hit by one before. Further to this, multiple items were thrown at me. I'd actually assumed the rifle would do ~10 damage, as why else would someone use it as a weapon to harm me.
Saying that I killed someone because they threw an item on me is simply false. Finally, the note also completely ignores the fact that Nicki was harming me when I was trying to kill a wizard that was mass murdering.

Finally, when I asked Lepi would I should have done there were zero realistic suggestions. Apparently I should have had a fist fight next to a time stop wizard. Ultimately, they were doing brute damage. Brute damage is lethal, so I responded to it with another lethal method. I did not know what Nicki Shazam's intent was and still do not.

The fact that I even have to write an appeal because I defended myself from a random shitter attacking me for no reason is retarded. I request that the note either gets removed or it gets increased to a permaban because I don't want to play on a server where admins ignore escalation policy to defend shitters.

*edited because I copy+pasted the template and forgot to change one thing

[MortoSasye]

Please add the banning admin name on your appeal title too, the full ban/note reason, the duration and the round id.

[Naloac]

Hi ya thanks for appealing. Just a few questions about your appeal. You where hunting the wizard, as most people where that shift. You get a lethal injection syringe and a syringe gun which is understandable when dealing with a big threat like 2 wizards. One of which with timestop the other with lesser summon guns. Why did you waste your main method of dealing with the wizard aka the syringe on some random greyshit. Also you where in the command hallway a place with alot of chairs which if you really wanted to could have been used as good weapons against someone who is almost certainly not a threat.

Did you believe that nicki was one of the wizards? If you where wanting to kill the wizard why even waste time on a random greyshit randomly throwing things.. in the same vain why even shoot them. Your wasting you main way to deal with the BIG threat on something that that max has barely hurt you. I can see no real reason to kill them other than you thought they where one of the two wizards.

[CrazyClown12]

Hi ya thanks for appealing. Just a few questions about your appeal. You where hunting the wizard, as most people where that shift. You get a lethal injection syringe and a syringe gun which is understandable when dealing with a big threat like 2 wizards. One of which with timestop the other with lesser summon guns. Why did you waste your main method of dealing with the wizard aka the syringe on some random greyshit. Also you where in the command hallway a place with alot of chairs which if you really wanted to could have been used as good weapons against someone who is almost certainly not a threat.

Did you believe that nicki was one of the wizards? If you where wanting to kill the wizard why even waste time on a random greyshit randomly throwing things.. in the same vain why even shoot them. Your wasting you main way to deal with the BIG threat on something that that max has barely hurt you. I can see no real reason to kill them other than you thought they where one of the two wizards.

This was one of five syringes. I'd already lost 1 syringe so I still had 3 syringes left after shooting Nicky. I figured (accurately) that I was more likely to die than to be able to fire off all 4 at a wizard anyway. And yes, I could have grabbed a chair as could have Nicky. I was there to take out a murderboning wizard and had no interest in having some 1v1 brawl with a shitter, especially not when they have already been attacking me and as such are at an advantage in health points.

I also disagree with the 'almost certainly not a threat part'. This is Dynamic. For All I know Nicky is baiting a brawl because they are a changeling. In fact Nicky being a changeling would explain Nicky's motivations more than any other IC explanation I can personally think of. That's not to mention the fact that they were literally attacking me, dealing damage and refusing to stop, so they are by definition a literal threat. You seem to expect me to use metaknowledge that infers they aren't an antag despite somewhat antagonistic behaviour because antags would be more effective than acting like some mongoloid repeatedly throwing heavy items?

[Naloac]

She threw in total three guns and was throwing them around before you even showed up. She hits you with a few doing in total around 10 damage. Which you could tell by examining yourself. 25 brute shows moderate damage. in the small amount of time from throwing the third gun you take out a syringe gun and in one shot nearly instantly kill her. You jumped from being hurt a tiny amount to instantly killing the other person. Then leaving the body instead of cloning. Normally act like an antag and get treated like one would apply but doing such minimal damage doesnt seem like acting like an antag to me.

[CrazyClown12]

She threw in total three guns and was throwing them around before you even showed up. She hits you with a few doing in total around 10 damage. Which you could tell by examining yourself. 25 brute shows moderate damage. in the small amount of time from throwing the third gun you take out a syringe gun and in one shot nearly instantly kill her. You jumped from being hurt a tiny amount to instantly killing the other person. Then leaving the body instead of cloning. Normally act like an antag and get treated like one would apply but doing such minimal damage doesnt seem like acting like an antag to me.

She threw in total three guns and was throwing them around before you even showed up.

I don't see how that is at all relevant I have no way of knowing whats someone's actions are before I show up. When I did show up, her actions involved attacking me. I can only judge on what I see.

She hits you with a few doing in total around 10 damage. Which you could tell by examining yourself. 25 brute shows moderate damage.

I did not examine myself, if I did it would not have done much as I did not know what the hp cut off was for 'moderate'. If I did do that, I would have guessed that the amount of damage I had taken was in the region of 20-24. Given that military rifles are designed to (amongst other things) be butted against people, I assumed that the damage from a rifle would be roughly comparable to a toolbox. Besides this your obsession with 'damage' in the numeric form is in my opinion contrary to the spirit of the game. In fact, never in any of my ahelps has an admin ever used the amount of damage dealt as making me or anyone else susceptible/not susceptible to escalation policy. Neither had anyone else on discord when I saw it being discussed.

in the small amount of time from throwing the third gun you take out a syringe gun

Yes it was a small amount of time. They are consistently harming me. I have given them loads ofoppurtunity to stop and walk away yet they continued to harm me. She decided to attack me for no reason other than to be a cancerous shitter, with no IC reason. When told to stop they carried on regardless, probably attempting to bait a conflict so that they could kill me. When I gave them the conflict that they so clearly crave, they immediately cry to you over ahelp. You keep asserting that she was no threat is simply inconsistent with their actions. They showed no signs of stopping despite being given a perfect oppurtunity to do so. The only explanation for your judgement is that your decision has been swayed by months of playing alongside Nicki (I have no past experience with Nicki, yet when I search their name on discord one of the first results is you publicly admiring them for beign funny, becuase attacking people for no reason near a murderboning wizard is apparently hilarious!) and that it is your past experience that has told you that Nicki would stop before I was critted, but again that is knowledge that you have and I do not. You seem completely incapable of looking at this case impartially as according to the rules without being extremely charitable to Nicki, despite this being a textbook case of banbaiting. You also seem to ignore the fact that Nicki has decided to be a shitter during a critical situation, if they had acted the same during War Ops my actions would have been the same.

nearly instantly kill her. You jumped from being hurt a tiny amount to instantly killing the other person. Then leaving the body instead of cloning. Normally act like an antag and get treated like one would apply but doing such minimal damage doesnt seem like acting like an antag to me.

The lethal injection syringe isn't instant, you can take pentetic acid/charcoal. You keep misrepresenting Nicki's damage as 'doing a tiny amount of damage', as if they had hit me with a crowbar accidentally when removing floor tiles. They consistently attacked me and refused to stop. You clearly have no justification for Nicki's actions other than 'But they did less than 25 damage to you'. Which is good to know, because it apparently makes doing 24 damage to someone for no IC reason and then ahelping when I get killed a valid tactic to get players I don't like banned. Further more, I was under no obligation to clone them because I did not instigate conflict. I didn't even know that they died, I had no interest beyond stoppig them from attacking me. Once again, you frame Nicki's actions in the most charitable way possible and in the process you are inaccurately representing the situation. Attacking someone repeatedly when they try and stop a murderboner does sound like antagonistic behaviour. You still have not addressed the inaccuracy of the note.

[Denton]

The lethal injection syringe isn't instant, you can take pentetic acid/charcoal.

The lethal injection syringe crits you from full health in about 20-25 seconds. Combined with damage slowdown, that's nowhere enough to get to medbay and mix pentetic acid.

[CrazyClown12]

The lethal injection syringe crits you from full health in about 20-25 seconds. Combined with damage slowdown, that's nowhere enough to get to medbay and mix pentetic acid.

I didn't say you could go to medbay and create it. I said you could take it. If you're going to choose to start a conflict with someone holding a syringe gun, prepare better. If you fail to prepare for a conflict that you yourself instigate then don't cry over ahelp. I did not know nor care whether Nicki had taken pentetic acid or charcoal as I was only there in an attempt to take out a station wide threat.

[Cobby]

the chloralhydrate reagent gives you confusion/dizziness, then sleep at 10 iterations, then toxin after 50. The toxin scales with current cycle so after 60 iterations, you're getting at least 10 tox damage per.

You have 10 iterations to purge the chem or have someone babysit you before you go down with a hardstun.

Basically the gotcha of "it isn't instant" is semantics considering at 10 iterations you're beelining to death, not to mention they said "nearly instant".

That said, 25 damage is a fourth of a player's health to crit.

[CrazyClown12]

I'm not getting into the semantics at all, I'm saying if I was going to attack someone that had a syringe gun I would grab a pentetic acid syringe first. Ten cycles is more than enough time to grab pentetic acid out of your bag. I did not initiate conflict, Nicki did. As such she has the privilege of being able to grab the relevant gamer gear for the battle that she herself is choosing.

[Naloac]

So I took some time to think about this. While I do think what you did was over zealous. I could see someone trying to quickly remove a threat and not wanting to get bogged down in a fight. Especially if you think the guns doing 10~ ish damage per hit. I do believe that if you knew the damage numbers you wouldnt have reacted the way you did. Ive set to note to expire in a months time.

[CrazyClown12]

So I took some time to think about this. While I do think what you did was over zealous. I could see someone trying to quickly remove a threat and not wanting to get bogged down in a fight. Especially if you think the guns doing 10~ ish damage per hit. I do believe that if you knew the damage numbers you wouldnt have reacted the way you did. Ive set to note to expire in a months time.

Thank you, I appreciate it!