Assistants and Maint Access

[Ty the Smonk]

Assistant shouldn't have maint access. There is a config setting to remove their maint access. Maint access is pretty big enabler for assistants to tide, since they have 0 responsibilities and get bored very quickly, I believe that there would be considerably less tiding if they didn't have this access. Below is a list of counter arguments that I have answers for, I have pondered over these for 150 hours. I have yet to see a single assistant use maint access for something other than a autism project or being a shitter and tiding armory or another department, I mean I can't really blame the fact that Assistants generally have nothing to do, but if you wanted to do something that bad, why didn't you get a actual job? There are probably some other counter arguments that I haven't thought of so feel free to show me how wrong my opinion is.

1: "I only like doing maint autism projects! I don't tide!" A: Go to the HOP and get it then
2: "There is no heads!" A: Don't tide during dead pop
3: "HOP said no!" A: Just hack the doors then
4: "I don't have insuls!" A: Stop being a pussy and hack that door
5: "Tiders will just go to other roles to tide!" A: Assistant isn't a containment role for shitters, stop treating it like it is
6: "I don't want to have any responsibilities!" A: Then play Assistant, hacking doors is still possible, and HOPs usually don't deny people access
7: "BUT ITS THE SOU-" A: Shut the fuck up
8: "X isn't doing their job! I need to break into fix it!" A: Why didn't you go that job if you know so much about it to be able to fix it?
9: "I didn't get the job I wanted and was auto assigned a random one." A: Ask the HOP for a job change
10: "I joined late and none of the jobs I want are available!" A: Try learning a new job or observing until the next round, or go assistant and ask for maint access from your local HOP
11: "I'm an antagonist Assistant and can't get into maint!" A: Hack, emag, ask HOP, etc
12: -Free Space-

[Omni]

You mean I should now just play the engineer and just change jumpsuit roundstart?
I am down really.

[Ty the Smonk]

You mean I should now just play the engineer and just change jumpsuit roundstart?
I am down really.

I mean if you get job banned for tiding instead of doing your job that is on you (and yes excessive tiding is a way admins can job ban, they don't do it often but they really shouldn't need to)

[Omni]

You mean I should now just play the engineer and just change jumpsuit roundstart?
I am down really.

I mean if you get job banned for tiding instead of doing your job that is on you (and yes excessive tiding is a way admins can job ban, they don't do it often but they really shouldn't need to)

Pardon me, but I dare to say you might have been absent from the game for quite a while, cause tiding (except for all the gear you need you start with and you can grab free hardsuit and RCD and just fuck off) is all that 80-90% of engineering is ever doing.
But sure, job bans. I eagerly anticipate seeing some.

[Sandshark808]

You mean I should now just play the engineer and just change jumpsuit roundstart?
I am down really.

I mean if you get job banned for tiding instead of doing your job that is on you (and yes excessive tiding is a way admins can job ban, they don't do it often but they really shouldn't need to)

Pardon me, but I dare to say you might have been absent from the game for quite a while, cause tiding (except for all the gear you need you start with and you can grab free hardsuit and RCD and just fuck off) is all that 80-90% of engineering is ever doing.
But sure, job bans. I eagerly anticipate seeing some.

Don't be too cynical, a guy finally got jobbanned for fusion trolling.

[Omni]

You mean I should now just play the engineer and just change jumpsuit roundstart?
I am down really.

I mean if you get job banned for tiding instead of doing your job that is on you (and yes excessive tiding is a way admins can job ban, they don't do it often but they really shouldn't need to)

Pardon me, but I dare to say you might have been absent from the game for quite a while, cause tiding (except for all the gear you need you start with and you can grab free hardsuit and RCD and just fuck off) is all that 80-90% of engineering is ever doing.
But sure, job bans. I eagerly anticipate seeing some.

Don't be too cynical, a guy finally got jobbanned for fusion trolling.

Holy Cow, batman!
Atmosian banned? For releasing round ending fusion that kills everyone who doesn't have CE suit/didn't pick epic plasmaman?
Thing which they do every two, three rounds, "by accident", or because antag nicely asked them to lend some spicy atoms can?
Times, they sure are changing

[Sandshark808]

Holy Cow, batman!
Atmosian banned? For releasing round ending fusion that kills everyone who doesn't have CE suit/didn't pick epic plasmaman?
Thing which they do every two, three rounds, "by accident", or because antag nicely asked them to lend some spicy atoms can?
Times, they sure are changing

He did literally every one of those things.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24131

[Ty the Smonk]

Holy Cow, batman!
Atmosian banned? For releasing round ending fusion that kills everyone who doesn't have CE suit/didn't pick epic plasmaman?
Thing which they do every two, three rounds, "by accident", or because antag nicely asked them to lend some spicy atoms can?
Times, they sure are changing

Yes times are changing Robin, you can never be too sure what to expect anymore!

[Ty the Smonk]

In all seriousness yea that guy did basically just sell it to an antag.

[Sandshark808]

In all seriousness yea that guy did basically just sell it to an antag.

He sold one to an antag and left one lying in the hallway in the same round. The absolute madman.

[zxaber]

So, to be clear.

You're advocating that assistants lose maint access, in an attempt to cut down tiding, despite admitting it won't change anything, and knowing full well that if an assistant can break into the department door from maint then they can break into the maint door too, but it's still a good change?

Tiding is a result of boredom, and maint has a bunch of stuff to do that doesn't directly involve breaking into other departments. There's a maint bar, a maint robo and a maint medical just waiting to be furnished, as well as several empty rooms for whatever other projects people come up with. What's the ideal gameplay for an assistant without maint access? Twiddle their thumbs waiting for the shuttle, or just sit in the bar and alt-tab? Do you think giving assistants less to do will somehow stop tiding?

As an aside;

8: "X isn't doing their job! I need to break into fix it!" A: Why didn't you go that job if you know so much about it to be able to fix it?

This argument isn't really related to tiding since if you need into somewhere for legit purposes, it's easier to just ask the AI to let you in the front door. But it is worth pointing out that most jobs are limited to a max of two people and quite often HoPs refuse to give you the job change if all slots are filled.

[TheMythicGhost]

How about we get a policy thread on cutting down on these veiled saltposts disguised as Policy Threads? I've seen a fair amount in the last month or two.

[deedubya]

You mean I should now just play the engineer and just change jumpsuit roundstart?
I am down really.

I mean if you get job banned for tiding instead of doing your job that is on you (and yes excessive tiding is a way admins can job ban, they don't do it often but they really shouldn't need to)

Indeed. People playing actual jobs are held to a higher standard too, so it'l be more likely to happen.

Tiding is a result of boredom, and maint has a bunch of stuff to do that doesn't directly involve breaking into other departments. There's a maint bar, a maint robo and a maint medical just waiting to be furnished, as well as several empty rooms for whatever other projects people come up with. What's the ideal gameplay for an assistant without maint access? Twiddle their thumbs waiting for the shuttle, or just sit in the bar and alt-tab? Do you think giving assistants less to do will somehow stop tiding?

Maybe they shouldn't roll assistant if they can't think of any engaging gameplay that doesn't revolve around going on a gamer gear loothunt through maint? Or to put it better:

[Reeeee]

Assistant shouldn't have maint access.

The fuck do you care who has what access? You just seem the kind of person who just made these arguments up from thin air for the sake of arguing yourself since i have never seen anyone say these or anything related out loud to anyone else. In fact i have never seen anyone care about assistants period.
They care about specific people when someone goes on shitlery spree, and it's never about the job then.

And if you remove maint access, do you really think they will tide maintenance? Bruh. They will just tide departments then.
Considering AA is literally fifteen second speedrun, you suggestion is made from a vacuum of "i hate x" blindly and will cause more "aa at arrivals".

[Ty the Smonk]

So, to be clear.

You're advocating that assistants lose maint access, in an attempt to cut down tiding, despite admitting it won't change anything, and knowing full well that if an assistant can break into the department door from maint then they can break into the maint door too, but it's still a good change?

Tiding is a result of boredom, and maint has a bunch of stuff to do that doesn't directly involve breaking into other departments. There's a maint bar, a maint robo and a maint medical just waiting to be furnished, as well as several empty rooms for whatever other projects people come up with. What's the ideal gameplay for an assistant without maint access? Twiddle their thumbs waiting for the shuttle, or just sit in the bar and alt-tab? Do you think giving assistants less to do will somehow stop tiding?

As an aside;

8: "X isn't doing their job! I need to break into fix it!" A: Why didn't you go that job if you know so much about it to be able to fix it?

This argument isn't really related to tiding since if you need into somewhere for legit purposes, it's easier to just ask the AI to let you in the front door. But it is worth pointing out that most jobs are limited to a max of two people and quite often HoPs refuse to give you the job change if all slots are filled.

I have never seen a HOP refuse a job or access change, but I will admit yea I don't think much will change besides inconveniencing a play style I personally don't agree with, but it would be a small push in the right direction, yea they can still hack in or get maint access from HOP if they really wanted to. The ideal gameplay for an assistant is to well not play assistant, its meant to be a role for new players but it kinda isn't anymore, its a breeding ground for mostly shitters and people who like to grief. I'm not saying all tiders just the majority, if someone went into assistant with the mindset of "chill and relax and socialize" that basically means not breaking into places and stealing shit to tide and maybe socializing with the HOP for maint access or getting with other assistants to make something dumb like a spray paint painting of something, just literally ANYTHING else other than griefing and being a shitter.

[Ty the Smonk]

How about we get a policy thread on cutting down on these veiled saltposts disguised as Policy Threads? I've seen a fair amount in the last month or two.

are you gonna give me a argument or just say ided

[Ty the Smonk]

Assistant shouldn't have maint access.

The fuck do you care who has what access? You just seem the kind of person who just made these arguments up from thin air for the sake of arguing yourself since i have never seen anyone say these or anything related out loud to anyone else. In fact i have never seen anyone care about assistants period.
They care about specific people when someone goes on shitlery spree, and it's never about the job then.

And if you remove maint access, do you really think they will tide maintenance? Bruh. They will just tide departments then.
Considering AA is literally fifteen second speedrun, you suggestion is made from a vacuum of "i hate x" blindly and will cause more "aa at arrivals".

did you even read what I said or did you look at the title and go into a rage like you do on every other discussion i've see you in

[Omni]

You mean I should now just play the engineer and just change jumpsuit roundstart?
I am down really.

I mean if you get job banned for tiding instead of doing your job that is on you (and yes excessive tiding is a way admins can job ban, they don't do it often but they really shouldn't need to)

Indeed. People playing actual jobs are held to a higher standard too, so it'l be more likely to happen.

[Quotation and proof very much needed]

Tiding is a result of boredom, and maint has a bunch of stuff to do that doesn't directly involve breaking into other departments. There's a maint bar, a maint robo and a maint medical just waiting to be furnished, as well as several empty rooms for whatever other projects people come up with. What's the ideal gameplay for an assistant without maint access? Twiddle their thumbs waiting for the shuttle, or just sit in the bar and alt-tab? Do you think giving assistants less to do will somehow stop tiding?

Maybe they shouldn't roll assistant if they can't think of any engaging gameplay that doesn't revolve around going on a gamer gear loothunt through maint? Or to put it better:

That's bullshit if I've ever seen any. Plenty of people playing assistants do not do this stuff. Not everyone is good enough to compete with real gamers, there is hardly enough gamer gear in cirtulation in general for half the station that picks assistants to be supplied, etc. Not to mention the fact that people pick this role for different reasons. Sometimes they just want to play the game free of responsibilities so that they can, say log out without any problems whenever they feel like. Or do something else alltogether.
Aside from the fact that if you knew a thing or two about what you are talking about you would probably knew that about all the gamer stuff was removed from maint (at least on meta which is where vast majority of the games happens) in the recent months, other than these weird stimpack things. The most gamer tool you can now get from mainteance is what, a multitool? A pair of handcuffs?
This is kinda embarrasing.

The more I read forums the more I thing that if assistants trigger forumwarriors so much that we get daily thread discussing creative ways of screwing them over (visibly out of spite), the more I think assistants must be doing something right.

In other words:

[wesoda25]

Fuck off this is tg all that will happen is they’ll roll engineer

[cacogen]

we tried this once many moons ago and it was changed back
i forget what happened

i think this might've been back when tool storage required maint so you'd either break in or be let in
either way it didn't solve the problems it was intended to

[Ty the Smonk]

we tried this once many moons ago and it was changed back
i forget what happened

i think this might've been back when tool storage required maint so you'd either break in or be let in
either way it didn't solve the problems it was intended to

well a lot of things have changed since then and it would be interesting to atleast try it

[PKPenguin321]

5: "Tiders will just go to other roles to tide!" A: Assistant isn't a containment role for shitters, stop treating it like it is

This is a statement and not an argument, and I disagree with it. If a shitter who's upset Assistant has no maint access wants maint access, they'll just pick engineer and fuck off. Happened last time we did this and engines not being set up was an issue on multiple occasions. It's a pain in the ass.
In other words,

[skoglol]

You got it backwards bud. Assitants only stand out with their maint access because it isn't common access. Everyone should get maint access, problem solved.

[Ty the Smonk]

5: "Tiders will just go to other roles to tide!" A: Assistant isn't a containment role for shitters, stop treating it like it is

This is a statement and not an argument, and I disagree with it. If a shitter who's upset Assistant has no maint access wants maint access, they'll just pick engineer and fuck off. Happened last time we did this and engines not being set up was an issue on multiple occasions. It's a pain in the ass.
In other words,

What a shame, I feel like this is more of a player issue at this point than a policy issue if you have tried this before and it failed this hard, I also think that job banning should be a bit more harsh if people fuck off and not do the job they are supposed to do and signed up for but hey that is just me

[cacogen]

Everyone should get maint access, problem solved.

Stealth antags need maint to be low traffic to do their jobs

[Istoprocent1]

I agree with removing assistants' access to maintenance. This is a change we need.

Aside from that the atmos guy leaving cans out in the open is definitely a no-no, then again selling fusion to the traitor would just be RP, since the traitor spent 1TC for an RP item (Suitcase of Cash). Helping antags if there was sufficient IC reason is legit. (Rule 4 p. 1)

[bandit]

Tiding is a result of boredom, and maint has a bunch of stuff to do that doesn't directly involve breaking into other departments. There's a maint bar, a maint robo and a maint medical just waiting to be furnished, as well as several empty rooms for whatever other projects people come up with. What's the ideal gameplay for an assistant without maint access? Twiddle their thumbs waiting for the shuttle, or just sit in the bar and alt-tab? Do you think giving assistants less to do will somehow stop tiding?

plus, tiders generally go straight for the captain's office/spare ID so their access doesn't matter

[Sandshark808]

plus, tiders generally go straight for the captain's office/spare ID so their access doesn't matter

That or insuls and a toolbelt.
People should know that anyone robust enough to be harmful as a greytider probably knows how to get access to places they shouldn't. That's part of the reason why gameplay nerfs or role changes never fix things like this: the people that ided posts are about are people who can get from naked to all access in 15 minutes at the most. Any change would hurt normies and just set these guys back a couple minutes.

[Calomel]

I do not think this is a good idea. Two of the things I want an asisstant for is when I play Chemistry and I need an extra toxin bottle from ruined clinic
to make more sniriver/Thializid, or as Cook/Botanist so they can go get me the rare stuff that sometimes happens on secret garden on Maint.
If anything, maint is the sole reason for aisstants to exist, and they serve a very important fuction: To be witnessses to antags.

Without the pesky asisstant prowling maints/Rec Room/bathrooms for no discernible reason, antags (especially cult) would have free reign
to set home in maint and be completely undetected. Plus, while assistants are in maint tunnels, they are not causing trouble to you, or
anyone. This seems like a blanket statement on all asisstants made with little regard for wqhat other people find fun.

Please, understand that different people play SS13 for different reasons. Thank you.

[Istoprocent1]

Please, understand that different people play SS13 for different reasons. Thank you.

Indeed. People who play the game for different reasons are tired of constant tiding and assistantcurities roaming the maintenances. Assistants should not be "be-all end-all - the ultimate ability to do anything without taking any responsibility" when it comes to the roles on the station.

"But they can steal AA" is not an excuse not to remove their access. If they break into the captain's office fast enough, they can be removed from the round.

[Sandshark808]

Please, understand that different people play SS13 for different reasons. Thank you.

Indeed. People who play the game for different reasons are tired of constant tiding and assistantcurities roaming the maintenances. Assistants should not be "be-all end-all - the ultimate ability to do anything without taking any responsibility" when it comes to the roles on the station.

"But they can steal AA" is not an excuse not to remove their access. If they break into the captain's office fast enough, they can be removed from the round.

The problem is that sec is too unskilled or too afraid to arrest tiders usually. AFAIK the only times I've seen the department do anything is when Bill Nyaswell or one of the HoS statics is on in a sec command role, and they mainly just street sweeper tiders and instant-gulag or nugget them. I'm not entirely sure many other people could get away with that, both mechanically (Bill is pretty robust) and avoiding OOC punishment for treating serial powergamers that way.

[Omni]

Please, understand that different people play SS13 for different reasons. Thank you.

Indeed. People who play the game for different reasons are tired of constant tiding and assistantcurities roaming the maintenances. Assistants should not be "be-all end-all - the ultimate ability to do anything without taking any responsibility" when it comes to the roles on the station.

"But they can steal AA" is not an excuse not to remove their access. If they break into the captain's office fast enough, they can be removed from the round.

The problem is that sec is too unskilled or too afraid to arrest tiders usually. AFAIK the only times I've seen the department do anything is when Bill Nyaswell or one of the HoS statics is on in a sec command role, and they mainly just street sweeper tiders and instant-gulag or nugget them. I'm not entirely sure many other people could get away with that, both mechanically (Bill is pretty robust) and avoiding OOC punishment for treating serial powergamers that way.

That's only one side of the problem, but more important is that there's too much tiding going on, too few security members, and it's just bad idea: if you delegate your scarce resources to try to deal with tiding you will never be prepared for or intercept real antags reliably. Not to mention taht you will probably spawn angry mobs that will make your job even harder. The only sensible policy I ever managed to estabilish during brief time I was playing lots of sec was to just ignore them tiders completely and let them roam largely free.
Also: nobody wants to deal with bwoinks becase "Hey, got a minute? Why did you gulag/perma/shoot greyshirt no.372945 you don't even remember for doing some stupid shit, when he was non antig?"

[Calomel]

Honestly, there have been a number of sec related threads here before. Sec has a horrid reputation and playing in there usually ends in three ways:

- You are unrobust; you can't stop tiders OR antags properly: get called incompetent.
- You are robust and try to be by-the-book: tiders will either ahelp you for any reason, forcing you to have to defend yourself,
and/or you have to talk/not step on any toes, which means you'll rpobably die/lose your targets (a person who doesn't talk, acts first).
- You are robust and you skirt the line: You will get called shitcurity, and maybe ahelped.

There is no way to win; the rules that are suppsoed to (probably rightfully) benefit the antags are benefitting the tiders instead; Sec is
forced to follow procedure and be hel dto standards while Tiders are not. It's just the way things are.

[Omni]

Precisely this^

Dynamic on Terry kinda solved that problem, now nobody plays security at all other than total newbs, everyone and their grandma just plays something else and rolls for antag ad nauseum 9/10 rounds.

But I don't think that was the intention.

[Takeguru]

This is the 1000th time we've had this thread, and the answer should still be no

[oranges]

Precisely this^

Dynamic on Terry kinda solved that problem, now nobody plays security at all other than total newbs, everyone and their grandma just plays something else and rolls for antag ad nauseum 9/10 rounds.

But I don't think that was the intention.

terry is literally a team deathmatch

[bandit]

This is the 1000th time we've had this thread, and the answer should still be no

this is also the 1000th time someone has claimed that making any given change will get rid of graytiding, and it has never happened

[CPTANT]

So removing the only thing assistants can do (exploring maint) except for greytide is somehow supposed to reduce greytide?

[Cobby]

how do you "explore" a static layout?

[wesoda25]

how do you "explore" a static layout?

i do it all the time

[Grazyn]

Procedurally generated maint when

[Denton]

Procedurally generated maint when

w
y
c
i

[Xeroxemnas]

Remove maint access from assistants. Jobban engis who fuck off roundstart and steal hardsuit/don't even try to help with power.

Wow so hard.

[Xeroxemnas]

So removing the only thing assistants can do (exploring maint) except for greytide is somehow supposed to reduce greytide?

It makes assistants less annoying since they can't steal all the gamer gear in maint immediately. They're basically just unarmed hobos without tools or weapons.

[cedarbridge]

So removing the only thing assistants can do (exploring maint) except for greytide is somehow supposed to reduce greytide?

Removing the only reason asisstant mains are drawn to the role (free maint access and nobody to ask who you are or where you are) certainly makes the role less attractive and necessarily reduces attracting the specific kind of person prone to tiding with that power.

That said, we've done this in the past and those same bad actors with maint access removed just roamed around hacking open every maint door and leaving them open. It didn't really solve anything because assistaint mains are a blight.

[Skillywatt]

The main thing removing maintenance access does is remove the ic shield from dropping and searching randos in the maintenance tunnels.

I'm not necessarily supporting this (I think shitters need a containment role), but just saying.

If you have justification to search maintenance as sec and arrest/search anyone not an engineer, suddenly roaming maintenance is a bad idea if you have contraband.

[wesoda25]

Honestly removing maint access from assistants would be really interesting just for the development of culture regarding maint. Perhaps it would become more of a scary place to be paranoid of and avoid going into, as opposed to the safe space it is that everyone has access to.

The issue is, there's way more in maintenance to entertain and challenge someone than there is to someone with no access. So disabling maint would really only work once we had more on station content that anyone can explore. Or perhaps, divide up areas of maintenance so that certain parts are still off limits to assistants. So that we get high traffic areas (which currently is the entirety of maintenance) vs dangerous, low traffic areas. Would also help with valid hunting, assistants won't be able to hunt antags to every corner of the world anymore.
Edit: A way to do this without altering the physical layout of maint would be to divide it into like 4 sectors (1- medical/chapel 2- science/service/dorms 3-engi/east sec 4-west sec and arrivals), and assistants start with access to just 1 sector of maintenance round start. Or, make all the side rooms in maint require more than just maint access.

[wesoda25]

To illustrate what I meant, I made this:

Spoiler:

Areas in Green: Maintenance that assistants formerly could access, and can still access
Areas in Red: Maintenance that assistants could formerly access, but no longer
(the file was so massive I had to make it smaller, still should convey what i mean)

Basically it'll cement those high traffic areas and low traffic areas, its not perfect but it would involve the least amount of coding, and might? make both parties relatively happy.

What we definitely shouldn’t do however, is give everyone maint access. That would completely remove the half dead mystique of it. We should definitely aim to make maintenance a more restrictive, dangerous place (and I don’t mean by stocking it with simple mobs, thats lame as fuck and bad mapping. By restricting access to maint, it will become more useful to antags, and therefore more dangerous).

[Dr_bee]

So removing the only thing assistants can do (exploring maint) except for greytide is somehow supposed to reduce greytide?

Removing the only reason asisstant mains are drawn to the role (free maint access and nobody to ask who you are or where you are) certainly makes the role less attractive and necessarily reduces attracting the specific kind of person prone to tiding with that power.

That said, we've done this in the past and those same bad actors with maint access removed just roamed around hacking open every maint door and leaving them open. It didn't really solve anything because assistaint mains are a blight.

It might be time to start giving those bad actors bans for that behavior. If you cant be responsible with a privilege it gets taken away, and if you try to circumvent that you should be punished.

[Takeguru]

Or maybe don't punish the whole by removing maint and instead deal with the bad actors with the current access levels intact