[<Peoplearestrange>] <lalaria> rp ban

[lalaria]

b]BYOND account:[/b] <miriah>
Character name: <Kate Lasagnya>
Ban type: <Server/Role/OOC/etc>
Ban length: <1 day>
Ban reason: <Playing a retard is not a roleplay element. It doesn't work as a bit it just makes everyone elses time suffering. If you come back and do this bit again on Manuel you will be permanently removed from playing on ALL /tg/ servers.>
Time ban was placed: <Tr2020-01-10 18:44:04>
Server you were playing on when banned: <Manuel>
Round ID in which ban was placed: <45181>
Your side of the story: I joined Manuel and ran to brig, shooting my disabler randomly. Once I got to the brig, I got bwoinked. I believe that I was roleplaying properly as my character is constantly portrayed as below average IQ, with a goofy/carefree attitude. I do no think that I should be banned for roleplaying my character properly. I also believe that the lighthearted type of character like Kate Lasagnya is suitable for a server like Manuel. I've always been perfectly fine OOCly with HoS players or Captains removing my character from their security officer role as they may be justly deemed unfit for it, but I let that be dealt with ICly.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I don't think I should be banned for RPing the kind of character Kate Lasagnya is.

[peoplearestrange]

I can't find that round ID in the logs.

Either way this low effort "roleplay" isn't something thats suited to Manuels higher standards. Maybe this gimmick has worked before on other severs (possibly because attempts at RP get ignored mostly), but this gimmick only serves to be needlessly distruptive to a reasonable roleplay environment. Its doing something big and loud so people can pay attention. In the same way as greytiding isn't acceptable on Manuel, firing your disabler off in random directions whilst running down the halls and acting constantly dump to all the other crew, isn't either.

Just do yourself a favour now that the ban has passed and play any of the other 6 /tg/ servers where this is slightly more acceptable. You purposely disrupt Manuel again in this way and I'll assume you haven't understood and their will be further bans.

[peoplearestrange]

Actual round ID is: 127871

As parsed logs aren't available for Manuel right now I'll post some relevant parts:

Attack logs:

Spoiler:

[2020-01-10 18:36:55.498] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (87, 143, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:36:56.126] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (90, 144, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:36:56.576] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (93, 144, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:36:57.105] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (97, 144, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:36:57.633] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (100, 144, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:36:58.168] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (104, 144, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:36:58.719] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (106, 146, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:36:59.256] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (106, 146, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:36:59.620] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Fore Primary Hallway (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 148, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:37:00.679] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Fore Primary Hallway (Fore Primary Hallway (107, 153, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:37:01.194] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has shot /(Tam Lin) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (Fore Primary Hallway (108, 157, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:37:01.408] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Fore Primary Hallway (Fore Primary Hallway (108, 157, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:37:02.070] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Fore Primary Hallway (Fore Primary Hallway (109, 160, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:37:02.472] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Fore Primary Hallway (Fore Primary Hallway (109, 160, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:37:03.652] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Brig (Brig (110, 162, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:37:04.017] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Brig (Brig (110, 163, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:37:04.899] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Brig (Brig (110, 166, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:37:05.330] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Brig (Brig (110, 169, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:37:05.779] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [engraved message] with the disabler beam from Brig (Brig (108, 169, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:37:06.300] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [�Brig vent pump #7] with the disabler beam from Brig (Brig (111, 168, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:37:06.736] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Brig (Brig (113, 166, 2))
[2020-01-10 18:42:06.804] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Admin Prison (Admin Prison (186, 108, 1))
[2020-01-10 18:42:07.237] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Admin Prison (Admin Prison (186, 108, 1))
[2020-01-10 18:42:07.942] ATTACK: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Admin Prison (Admin Prison (186, 108, 1))

You started shooting at round start and didn't even stop when admin imprisoned


Ahelp coversation:

Spoiler:

[2020-01-10 18:37:18.200] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Peoplearestrange/()->Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya): The fuck are you doing?
[2020-01-10 18:37:25.232] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya)->Peoplearestrange/(): roleplaying
[2020-01-10 18:37:54.492] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Peoplearestrange/()->Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya): Firing your disabler round randomly like that is not roleplaying
[2020-01-10 18:38:10.896] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya)->Peoplearestrange/(): yes it is, i roleplayed it. i even made an emote for it
[2020-01-10 18:38:34.240] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Peoplearestrange/()->Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya): The fuck is wrong with you?
[2020-01-10 18:38:34.297] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya)->Peoplearestrange/(): im rping a retard cat perfectly
[2020-01-10 18:39:16.934] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Peoplearestrange/()->Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya): "My character is retarded" is not a valid roleplay element
[2020-01-10 18:39:33.185] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya)->Peoplearestrange/(): why not, that's how my character would behave
[2020-01-10 18:39:54.038] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya)->Peoplearestrange/(): in fact, roleplaying my character seriously would be breaking character
[2020-01-10 18:40:37.457] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Peoplearestrange/()->Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya): Because its absolutely unfun for anyone else to play with, it adds nothing constructive to the game and if you were that retarded you certainly wouldnt have been give a job on the station let alone security.
[2020-01-10 18:41:49.579] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Miriah/(Kate Lasagnya)->Peoplearestrange/(): but felinids have lower iq than humans and I roleplay a character that's been placed on sec because of race quotas

Also you said this at round start:

Spoiler:

[2020-01-10 18:35:10.868] OOC: Miriah/(Miriah) "GIMME ANTAG NOW"
[2020-01-10 18:36:30.230] OOC: Miriah/(Miriah) "ima afk if i don get antag"

EDIT: the point of this all is that these gimmicks are fine and even funny on MOST /tg/ servers, but we expect something a little more on Manuel. Just please do yourself and everyone else a favour and do this on one of the other 6 servers.

[lalaria]

I don't see why saying funny, sarcastic things on OOC would not be allowed on Manuel.
I think that Manuel, despite being an RP server, is also part of TGstation, and as such shouldn't be so distinct from the other servers that you demand everyone to play serious characters.
I do not believe that a light hearted character, like an very inept security officer harms RP, but that's just my opinion and I'll wait for you to resolve this matter. I'm not that concerned with the ban itself, as I am with the policy that caused the ban.

[peoplearestrange]

The OOC is more a case in point, its why I didn't bring it up before as evidence or anything else.

I'm not demanding serious characters or a realistic apporach but your """"character""" literally spoils everyone elses round by being literally terrible at your job and attacking other people because "LEWL IM DUMB".
And yes, Yes Manuel DOES have distinct rules compared to other /tg/ servers despite being under our banner. It says this in big red text when you join and there is a separate rules page for the server in addition to the standard ones.

The current policy, as far as I'm aware and as has been said by myself before is, if you don't like those rules play on any of the other SIX servers we have, stop purposely harming peoples rounds.

[lalaria]

Well, it's obvious we both disagree. Shouldn't another admin give their two cents about the appeal?

[peoplearestrange]

As this is a policy issue with less of a clear cut rule I will ask any other admin to please feel free to comment on the situation.

EDIT: I've asked other admins/headsmins to make a call on this for fairness.

Its also been pointed out that my initial opening ahelp was unnecessarily rude, and for that I can only apologise. I intend to change this to be more courteous as I would expect others to be to me.

[NecromancerAnne]

Here is my take on the matter as of right now. I personally believe this is not banworthy and Kate Lasagnya is consistent with our rules.

Now, I can be understanding if we were being much more intolerant of random unbelievably silly acts like weapon discharge down the halls as a security officer, but that wasn't why this ban was placed, and why it was isn't in the spirit of the rules we have or even against them. Rule 8 says this:

"Play as a coherent, believable character.
Real life realism is not required, and you are encouraged to be a little silly within the context of the SS13 game world. (Clowning around, people spontaneously exploding and creating ridiculously elaborate machinery are all non-serious things but yet a vital part of the game world.) There's a good chance your character still wants to have a job at the end of the day, so you should probably act like it."

Note how it says 'Real life realism is not required' and 'Play as a coherent, believable character.' This is definitely something that the character lalaria portrays complies with. Their character is an airheaded catgirl, which is, as noted already by PAS, a bit of a cliche. The only issue is that Cup Cake/Kate Lasagnya is actually the originator to which some of those stereotypes are attributed too. You can't call the original a cliche without a very deep sense of irony to the matter. And what's more, they're extremely consistent with their portrayal of the character. It is one thing to slip into bad habits built up from our other servers, and another to deride one of the best method actors we've had on our servers for the consistent and coherent portrayal of their character while maintained with an insane amount of dedication, to the point they keep it up even on the Discord channels. This is quite literally the only time I've seen them not in-character.

Another example of someone who portrays a character like this is uomo/Kat Green. Their character isn't nearly as braindead as Kate is, but they still portray the same general cliche and they're openly accepted anyway. But much of their character derives from precedence set by lalara in their portrayal of Kate. It would be highly illogical for the imitation to be accepted over the original just because one of them doesn't sound like they've got crayons crammed into their mouth at all times.

I argue this ban is completely illogical and against the spirit of the server and the culture we want for it. It's entirely one thing to be cracking down on bad faith behaviour, and another to be sapping the fun out of the experience by not allowing ridiculous characters that are otherwise harmless or add a unique and funny flavour to the experience of the server, so long as they're done well and consistent. We quite literally have lalaria to thank for part of a good portion of tg's reputation and catgirl stereotypes as a whole.

[RaveRadbury]

Since the terms of this ban have clearly expired this issue here is about the note it leaves behind and the precedent it is going to set for Manuel.

8. Play as a coherent believable character...There's a good chance your character still wants to have a job at the end of the day, so you should probably act like it.

Adminning Manuel in the days since it's creation (which has yet to pass a week), I've seen several invocations of this rule among the playerbase in OOC as well as privately within ahelps. "Act like your character wants to keep their job" ends up being the abbreviation that gets slung around. This still allows for some wiggle room with players who may be inexperienced with their role who would otherwise eat a ban with something like "Do the job you rolled" which would be a much harsher reduction of the current rule.

So what then do we do when a player itentionally designs a character that is bad at their job? We do have protocols for demotion and one could argue that it gives department heads "something to do". This is a poor semi-self-antag argument and ultimately degrades the kind of experience we're trying to have around here. Part of it has to do with too many players making use of this strategy; we have antags for a reason, we do not need people volunteering to provide line-toeing almost self-antagging behavior, especially on Manuel. The playerbase does not desire it, as can be seen in the feedback Manuel has been receiving.

I'd also like to take a moment to drill down a bit on the kind of incompetence that was performed and when it occured. We're trying to build an MRP atmosphere on Manuel, and part of that involves reducing roundstart chaos. I'd argue that a large number of our added rules reinforce this idea; rules 3, 4, 8, and 9 discourage "gearing up" and starting trouble.

So then, Kate Lasagnya begins her shift firing off her disabler. It's unnecessarily disruptive, as there are alternative ways that Kate could have demonstrated incompetence. Kate's player chose to fire a gun off on the new MRP server filled with players who are tired of LRP and LRP behaviors. It's hard not to feel like your shift is already breaking down when you hear a sec officer randomly emptying their disabler, it's demoralizing to the spirit of anyone who witnessed it. Miriah is a very experienced player and I would find it hard to believe that they would not be aware of the kind of weariness that players have expressed in OOC on any of our servers.

As we are discussing precedent here I'd like to additionally call into question similar behavior that I witnessed from Cup Cake in a round before the one appealed. EVA on Meta was set to emergency access, and Cup Cake saw this as an opportunity to acquire the metal foam grenades from there and then proceeded to set them off in the main hall, creating long foam metal walls on either side of the central hub hallways. I personally have found their use in this manner on Bagil and Sybil to be especially distracting and bothersome, so to witness them round start on Manuel concerned me. Is this something that is allowed from clowns? Where do we draw the line here?

Writing this all out, what comes across to me is that given the length of MRP rounds the start of shift is important for setting the tone for what could be the next 2+ hours. Therefore I think that we need to put weight on disruptive behaviors that occur at shift start on Manuel, specifically when performed by non-antags.

[TheMythicGhost]

Since the terms of this ban have clearly expired this issue here is about the note it leaves behind and the precedent it is going to set for Manuel.

8. Play as a coherent believable character...There's a good chance your character still wants to have a job at the end of the day, so you should probably act like it.

Adminning Manuel in the days since it's creation (which has yet to pass a week), I've seen several invocations of this rule among the playerbase in OOC as well as privately within ahelps. "Act like your character wants to keep their job" ends up being the abbreviation that gets slung around. This still allows for some wiggle room with players who may be inexperienced with their role who would otherwise eat a ban with something like "Do the job you rolled" which would be a much harsher reduction of the current rule.

So what then do we do when a player itentionally designs a character that is bad at their job? We do have protocols for demotion and one could argue that it gives department heads "something to do". This is a poor semi-self-antag argument and ultimately degrades the kind of experience we're trying to have around here. Part of it has to do with too many players making use of this strategy; we have antags for a reason, we do not need people volunteering to provide line-toeing almost self-antagging behavior, especially on Manuel. The playerbase does not desire it, as can be seen in the feedback Manuel has been receiving.

I'd also like to take a moment to drill down a bit on the kind of incompetence that was performed and when it occured. We're trying to build an MRP atmosphere on Manuel, and part of that involves reducing roundstart chaos. I'd argue that a large number of our added rules reinforce this idea; rules 3, 4, 8, and 9 discourage "gearing up" and starting trouble.

So then, Kate Lasagnya begins her shift firing off her disabler. It's unnecessarily disruptive, as there are alternative ways that Kate could have demonstrated incompetence. Kate's player chose to fire a gun off on the new MRP server filled with players who are tired of LRP and LRP behaviors. It's hard not to feel like your shift is already breaking down when you hear a sec officer randomly emptying their disabler, it's demoralizing to the spirit of anyone who witnessed it. Miriah is a very experienced player and I would find it hard to believe that they would not be aware of the kind of weariness that players have expressed in OOC on any of our servers.

As we are discussing precedent here I'd like to additionally call into question similar behavior that I witnessed from Cup Cake in a round before the one appealed. EVA on Meta was set to emergency access, and Cup Cake saw this as an opportunity to acquire the metal foam grenades from there and then proceeded to set them off in the main hall, creating long foam metal walls on either side of the central hub hallways. I personally have found their use in this manner on Bagil and Sybil to be especially distracting and bothersome, so to witness them round start on Manuel concerned me. Is this something that is allowed from clowns? Where do we draw the line here?

Writing this all out, what comes across to me is that given the length of MRP rounds the start of shift is important for setting the tone for what could be the next 2+ hours. Therefore I think that we need to put weight on disruptive behaviors that occur at shift start on Manuel, specifically when performed by non-antags.

Although it seems a few people are being confused about the Rule you mentioned, you should likely focus on the part you left out as well which is the key part that seems to have been forgotten in your statement above as it dismantles it and sheds light as to why this is contested.


Most specifically,

Real life realism is not required, and you are encouraged to be a little silly within the context of the SS13 game world. (Clowning around, people spontaneously exploding and creating ridiculously elaborate machinery are all non-serious things but yet a vital part of the game world.)

[Plapatin]

i'm going to step in for a moment here to say that "you are encouraged to be a little silly within the context of the ss13 world" does NOT mean "you can fire disablers at complete random at roundstart while shouting "OOPSIE WOOPSIE MY BRAIN HAS A TUMOR UWU" and have the only excuse for that behaviour be "i roleplay a retard". there's a fine line where silliness turns to grief and it's well past the point that lalaria took

this ban's already expired and i don't think there's any reason to discuss it further.