Escalation against security falsely arresting you

[CPTANT]

Bottom post of the previous page:

So what is reasonable escalation against security falsely arresting you?

It happens from time to time that an officer tries to arrest you for false reasons. Ranging from harmless crimes to thinking you are an antag. It brings you in a really shitty situation since officers almost always stun before they decide to execute you, the latest moment you have is before they baton/disabler you.

For example a couple days ago an officer falsely called me a cultist and tried to baton me. What is reasonable self defence? When does it become acceptable to kill an officer trying to take you down?

[Reeeee]

Here's a neat gimmick i learned as Pacifist.

Sec guy dashes you with batong out; dodge, but don't run. Stay in the conflict area, do not escalate nor escape.
He either stops and starts wondering why neither are happening and finally talks to you, you work it out.
Option b is he disablers you, if he does, don't dodge, just say "i submit" or something when he is pewing you while holding still.

Every time i do this as non-antag, i get to walk out of brig after my pockets and bag are checked, sometimes PDA, i get to keep my insulos and toolbelt at 100% health.
If I don't, I ahelp. I have yet to ahelp anyone except two motherfuckers who went full apemode once on warops for no discernible reason but to specifically shitsec by moving straight to execution room. Even that was ICly solved in the end.

You run, you are guilty, if you run and make sec guy work for no gain, he's gonna take your insulos, keep the toolbelt and slap you on ten minute timer and then disposal you and space your heirloom. Real fact is that those motherfuckers wanna sort the bad guys out, not chase tide around cus they are acting "bit shit". Sec doesn't really fucking give hoots ass you have insulated gloves and some "contraband" (the fuck even is contraband? Having spear is just being smart on SS13. If it's not bloody, who gives a burned rats ass.) as long as you don't make it hard for them to keep you safe. And that's the real issue, people not considering sec a required minor discomfort, instead free valids and loot bags and something to get lynched for giggles. It's not about you escalating, it's sec being helpful to you being a two way street.

It works both ways, you make it hard for sec, sec makes it hard for you, regardless how non-antag you are.
And if they are not doing that as sec, fucking bucklecuff em in maint naked and then inform local antags where the sad soul is over common.

But you have to accept the fact that it's a game and 1/100 it's a ling that's gonna succ you otherwise whole game falls on it's head and we could just remove security as job and add gunlockers to departments.

[Cobby]

Honestly freekills should only be made when you have proof (not someone over radio, etc) that they're an antag or otherwise deserving of lethals.

Escalation as a whole really put a damper on actually having to proof before you get your valids. Why bother getting proof they are an antag when you can bait them into attacking you and then beat them to death.

Security, per the rules, doesn't/shouldn't follow "normal" escalation given their immediate access to nonlethals.

[Arathian]

You know, this was a good conversation and it something that still remains unresolved. I would like a headmin to at least chip in on this.

On this note, I started keeping count since coming back and I get killed more often by sec than antags on Terry of all places. And those who play with me know I never actively seek trouble and I almost single-mindedly try to do my job otherwise.

[imsxz]

the thing about escalation vs sec is that you have to be smart about it and there IS no easy way to handle it. sometimes the officer is a shitter, sometimes the criminal is the shitter, sometimes it's both. A lot of the time the people that complain about shitsec are the ones who brought it upon themselves doing something aids. Most sec players have probably experienced getting flamed by some tider for arresting the tider that stole all access and armory gear. In this case, I'd have absolutely banned the assistant if he killed or crit any of the sec regardless of what they did past that point(more or less).

Other times the officer is indeed on a power trip. Officer detains you(an engineer) to search for being in maint, decides to confiscate your insuls and toolbelt because why the fuck not. Brigs you for 10 minutes too and shoots your dog. Also has a meme name so you KNOW you cant take him seriously. You, being a very vengeful person, decide to
a) grief the entire security department for the actions of the 1 officer
b) grief the one bad security officer and de-escalate to avoid further conflict with the rest of the security team(or at least dont grief them in self defense, theyre just doing their job and are 99% not aware of what happened with the other officer)
c) do nothing, maybe ahelp

if you choose violence, you better be prepared, most admins wont help you after you commit.
Most(not all) people that complain about getting banned for retaliating against shitsec either A) shoot the officers that are unknowingly protecting the shitsec officer or B)totally deserved whatever sec was doing to them. There are of course some exceptions though.

[Arathian]

A) shoot the officers that are unknowingly protecting the shitsec officer

If, say, you decide on violence to get back at the <objectively griefing shitsec> (OGS) as is your right and then that escalates to violence with the rest of sec, it should be "valid" for both sides. You can't be "valid" for every seccie, but you can only attack that one officer because the rest are "doing their job". It's, at some point, sec's job to investigate and ask why that random engineer is on a crusade to fuck up OGS. And if they don't care, they should face consequences for not caring. You don't fix shitsec by protecting them at every turn.

Again, if a situation goes out of control and we end up with multiple bodies, who is to blame? The engineer who was griefed or the OGS who got fucked over the engineer because he was on a power trip?

Furthermore, if you do ANYTHING to the sec, like trying to dodge him randomly stunbatoning you, does that make you valid? Every shitsec out there has a "valid" bullshit idea for why he is going on an abusive rampage. "Oh we got reports of a ling in maint and I saw him and he dodged me when I tried to baton him".

I am not even saying we should ban shitsec. I would prefer to relax the OOC protections from both sides. Let conflict escalate and, if it is initiated by sec, revolts should be allowed. Some of the most memorable rounds have been anti-sec revolts (the infamous pizza revolts of bagil come to mind). It keeps both sides in check naturally. The problem here isn't tiders or shitsec. It is unbalanced OOC rules.

[Cobby]

Antags can literally level the station just cuz' they're antag on most of our servers, so it makes sense why they tend to not bother to ask the Why's.

[Naloac]

This is by no means an "official opinion" but if sec is trying to arrest me randomly without saying anything and im sure I havent done anything wrong I will treat them as an antag because they probably are. I normally treat sec that are acting like tiders fucking up my department like tiders because unless im told otherwise they probably are just tiders. *although I dont really mind dying to the harmbaton dance. /shrug*

[NecromancerAnne]

Nothing says gamer time like sec coming to kill you with laser guns in force over a minor crime or a petty disgruntlement. I'm especially fond of 'Tyrant King Captain orders your death over looking at him funny/stole the last borito corn chip' which I've hit a few times, or 'Security didn't just witness you absolutely obliterate an armed antagonist with your bare hands and got there late, so now you have to take up the dead antags mantle as they come at you with buckshot filled shotguns'

Frankly it's such a treacherous realm I generally say keep lethals to the sec officers who used lethals first and use nonlethals on the ones who come to reinforce their team. And if at all possible, stay nonlethal and evasive regardless. Antagonists don't usually leave survivors or witnesses. There is no way you win the escalation here because it's an inherently rigged game designed to give security as much leeway to pull shit out of their arse to kill you, so you might as well not play their game and be the better person.

Or don't, I'm not your mum.

If seccies come at you with lethal weapons, they expect you to be dangerous, so you might as well be dangerous and give them what they want. If they learn later that you're not an antagonist, then why do they get the special privilege of bitching about it after the fact when they never considered taking you in alive in the first place? This is emergent gameplay. They're likely just sad they lost.

[Qbmax32]

just don’t validhunt LOL

[Tlaltecuhtli]

not lethally stun n cuff him in maint and use his id to unset yourself from arrest, if more sec officers are angry at you get a morgue id and wear a mask until shit hits the fan and there is no more sec

[NecromancerAnne]

So talking about this with some people has reminded me that this entire problem is best explained by simply watching First Blood.