Manuel: What game modes actually fit the server rules?

[NecromancerAnne]

Since manuel started I've been really wondering how well suited our game modes actually are for the much higher roleplay standard some of the game modes we have in the code and are presently enabled. I think, of the game modes, the ones that work best are the solo antags that are largely stealth based, or at least, are not completely stealing the show. Traitor, BB's and Changeling. Not really many, but they fit and they work.

Which leaves four others in rotation that need to be re-evaluated in my opinion. Some have already been hotbeds for discussion over whether they're fun or not and whether they fit the game. For the most part, they've been fine and work well enough in our other servers, but I think they're beginning to pickle in the new ruleset given they are, in many ways, demanding a higher intensity of powergame to either combat or be involved in. Since we disincentivise powergame on Manuel, they often end up just being landslide victories or people wringing their hands because this isn't quite what they were expecting and don't want to break the rules.

Nuclear Operatives/War Operatives: I think Nuclear Operatives at the moment are kind of just anti-fun unless the operatives choose to largely forgo the objective for a while to do something wacky. There is potential, and there is definitely people who want to do that kind of thing and will. But there are plenty of people who want to just game as hard as possible with big shooty guns and those guys aren't really doing anything bad, since the operative uplink is about 70% ballistic weapons and murder tools. It is maybe an issue of the objective nukies have being the destruction of the station rather than some kind of more abstract or more involved operation aboard the station. If nukies were more akin to a covert team looking to cause trouble on the station, akin to traitors without the sleeper agent element, they might fit just fine. Nuking the station being only ONE of the things they can do, more or less, rather than their ultimate goal.

War operatives is a fucking mess. A running theme I'll have here is that I largely don't agree with the idea that TDM is a positive element to have in a roleplaying game to begin with, but this one is really just how hard the station can pull the stops to game these much more heavily armed opponents. The depth of roleplay you'll get here is anyone getting lynched for a lack of access or a lot of people dying because of an insistence people keep out of the way of security. The mode was designed in a way to have the nuclear operatives advertise their arrival and therefore get enough gear to match an entire crew armed to fight them. It may actually be time to add that separate game mode honestly...

Revolution: Playing fair and being nice to antagonists just doesn't fucking work when only one side is beholden to this rule and the other takes incredible advantage of it to win. If we're encouraging people to be kind to antags, then revolution is really going to start grating on people in a very bad way, and quickly. It will exhaust players out of this mindset, and what basically happens most rev rounds is revolutionaries just butchering everyone they encounter that they can't convert. You could try your hardest to be a good cop in this round, or try and keep out of the revolution's way as a standard crew, but honestly the revs just have the numbers game and have every incentive to just kill or convert everything and everyone they can as quickly as possible and you aren't going to see much interesting gameplay other than 'It's just like any other server and the two sides game as hard as possible' or 'the nonantags sit on their thumbs doing the right then and lose because the antagonists aren't going to give them the time of day and they have a mode to win'. This is a goddamn mess and a half as far as I'm concerned for the roleplay rules and I feel like it ends up lowering the standard of play by a lot.

Blood Cult: The fact that a powergamer got his grubby hands on this mode and inserted enough 'I win' buttons into it should basically speak for itself. Blood cult is powergame: the game mode. And people not busting their ass to powergame the shit out of it in turn are going to lose to this absolute monster of an antagonist. The fact that it's a bunch of wizards with nigh infinite resources and slowly spreading it's numbers across multiple crew members makes cult really, really fucking difficult to deal with without going all the fuck out and pulling some serious bullshit yourself. And for the most part, you need more than just the security force to combat cult. The only way to beat cult is to not let them do anything, which means calling the shuttle as soon as you recognize the threat is present. There are no alternatives, and no other way to fight back against the cult proves reliable given someone had the bright idea to make deconversion require one specific role to be alive and on the station, and takes something like 2 minutes a person, in which time there is the possibility they could be rescued, or the loss of that cultist entirely made redundant by the capture and conversion of more people because security quite literally has to babysit anyone they capture for that entire duration. Being fair on cultists is a joke. There is every reason to kill every single cultist in the game because the entire method of trying to deconvert or rescue cultist is a rigged system to help cult win more.

Wizard: I'll be honest, if we could just put in some more wacky, silly spells that don't involve making spessmen horizontal, then wizard might actually be pretty good. And wizard has a really heavy amount of opportunity to be silly and fun. But there isn't QUITE enough tools for wizard to do anything but mass murder. I think it's okay to keep in so long as it's rare but I strongly feel like wizard needs some QoL touchups because otherwise it'll be validhunt mode every round they pop up, incentivizing once again behaviours we're trying to cut down on for Manuel. If a wizard is already doing something that isn't hyperdestructive and threatening the lives of everyone on the station, then there probably isn't going to be much issue since anyone who lolrandom lexorin syringes the wizard doing something unique and nondisruptive to them is hopefully btfo by administrators for not staying in their lane and leaving it to security to handle.

[Screemonster]

Nuclear Operatives/War Operatives: I think Nuclear Operatives at the moment are kind of just anti-fun unless the operatives choose to largely forgo the objective for a while to do something wacky. There is potential, and there is definitely people who want to do that kind of thing and will. But there are plenty of people who want to just game as hard as possible with big shooty guns and those guys aren't really doing anything bad, since the operative uplink is about 70% ballistic weapons and murder tools. It is maybe an issue of the objective nukies have being the destruction of the station rather than some kind of more abstract or more involved operation aboard the station. If nukies were more akin to a covert team looking to cause trouble on the station, akin to traitors without the sleeper agent element, they might fit just fine. Nuking the station being only ONE of the things they can do, more or less, rather than their ultimate goal.

I'm just gonna dig up this old thread here 'cause come to think of it it's way more suited to mrp

tl;dr instead of "nuke ops", a selection of players are spawned in on a ship as "visiting ship crew" and given a random objective, some of the objectives are friendly to the station and the station loses if the objective isn't completed, while regular traitors are spawned to sabotage it.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18948

[Sheodir]

I'm gonna say this as nicely as possible - I think some of the comments here show a serious lack of experience playing Manuel these last few days, if not with actual enforced MRP in general. I will get into why using rounds as examples in as much detail as I possibly can.

Nuclear Operatives/War Operatives: Heavily dependant on the approach taken by the Ops themselves, as you say, but it's a little more complex than that. The issue is actually not really War or Stealth Ops, but Blitz Ops. That is a gamemode that is entirely ruined by the roleplaying rules, and hell, it sucks even in no-MRP, with one of the original incentives of War Ops being the reduction of "blitz and win" ops, which are so fast and resistant to most of what the station can throw at them that early in the shift with no warning that they simply win within minutes.

Stealth Ops work wonderfully well under these rules. Seeing them, deciding to try and capture vs kill when possible, this has happened and been a wonderful round experience. Policy will have to tighten up on how these antagonists act to avoid a few anti-fun behaviors but overall, no complaints here.

War Ops is a great gamemode outside of MRP, if a bit grating to some due to how commonplace it's become - the novelty of all-out combat TDM has worn out to quite a few. However, with a few changes to policy and how it deals with War Ops, it could be a genuinely fun gamemode, and fixes to fit it to Manuel could affect other stations positively as well. Add a longer timer to the ops themselves - balance this out by giving them either a few more Ops slots or just more shit at the base for them to do or work on, maybe even replacing some of what their points can buy (i.e. making bombs and diseases rather than using points to make them) - and have the policy dictate the station must still follow hierarchy and order, adn that the HEads and Sec are obligated to enforce it.

(Adding Dynamic might also fix the "everyone to armory" syndrome, since normal traitors would still be possibly amidst them)

Wew, that is by far the spicier one and the one I will be arguing for most of this thread on if history's any indication. Moving on.

Revolution: This is the first major red flag for me that you haven't played a lot of Manuel - rev rounds have been the most fun I've ever had with the gamemode on Manuel thus far. I actually sort of detest it in no-RP because it has a tendency to simply steamroll to either side with little to no variance and the no RP turns it into the flash and mindshield game and whoever has the bigger numbers win, but in Manuel there has been an actual attempt to convey a revolution in two different approaches - there was one shift where people actually acted out the dialogue of being dissatisfied with Nanotrasen and made long, elaborate taunts at Sec, whilst other in a more highpop shift had the mind control aspect of flashes be played out in some tragic breakaways of friendship and such. I even saw someone actually take the mindshield OFF a sec officer to try and make him a rev! These were the longer and most fun rev rounds I've ever seen on the station, and policy could encourage them to move towards this way more often.

Blood Cult: This is the second major red flag, and where I start suspecting you're just using Manuel to argue against gamemodes you don't like. Blood Cult in Manuel has been incredible. I'm a fan of the gamemode on both NORP and MRP but MRP is where it's started to truly shine for me. We had people actually try and keep working as the cult proceeded, actual paranoia as people ratted out shady coworkers to sec and had them searched (with an Obsessive using this to their advantage), the heartwrenching cries of Sec Officers as one of their own is captured and turned into a construct and they vow not to call the shuttle until they can free their spirit. Blood Cult with RP is where the gamemode actually shines, and whilst I don't fully disagree they need a bit of tweaking - specially where deconversion and conversion is concerned - it's overall been a positive experience in Manuel.

Wizard: The final oddity! We've had a few Wizard rounds on Manuel and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who liked them. The Wizard's toolset has gotten progressively worse over time, and your two choices are the meme wizard, which entirely ruins any chance of serious RP and RANDOM and WACKY things happen to anyone and any pretense of acting shit out is just silly as the floor turns to lava, or the death wizard, who's too busy appearing out of thin air and casting fireball to bother roleplaying. The role simply isn't designed for it since on sight people just want to kill the bastard to end this abortion of a gamemode for MRP, whilst in NORP it's just a fun wacky thing that happens sometimes.

On a separate sidenote, DUMP EET/CRAB-17 is awful for Manuel and I've legit seen rounds that were going well RP wise be ruined by the fact everyone takes a break to beat up the ATM machine wordlessly with tools in a setup that doesn't even make sense within the world itself. I get its intended function (to distract the station) but the implementation sucks, and I'd argue this goes for both NORP and MRP, but it's just way worse in Manuel to the point I audibly groan when it happens. Some of the usual Bagil and Sybil admins also really need to fucking stop admemes because as fun as they are sometimes I must have seen 4 clown cars in two days and they ruin any chance of actual roleplay happening that shift.

[RaveRadbury]

One of my experiences with bloodcult involved someone I knew asking if I'd like to see what they were working on this shift. They then led me into science where I was quickly converted. The round ended like five minutes later. It was a 20 minute cult round. This is an issue in MRP.

[Lazengann]

Changelings do not work at all. Players are afraid to kill them because they're not Security and the rules discourage it, and Security is scared to kill them because they'd be operating off hearsay. Changelings should be removed from the code base in general but especially on the higher roleplay servers.

[RaveRadbury]

Changelings do not work at all. Players are afraid to kill them because they're not Security and the rules discourage it, and Security is scared to kill them because they'd be operating off hearsay. Changelings should be removed from the code base in general but especially on the higher roleplay servers.

I hear what you're saying but I think it's hard to argue against a shapeshifter/imposter in a game about paranoia. Should changelings be balanced for MRP? Sure, absolutely. Should they be removed? Only if something else is going to fill the identity-thief gap.

[Qbopper]

I've only been on one rev round on manuel but it was by far the least enjoyable round I've played on the server to date

It seems extremely hit or miss if people will treat it like MRP or not

[NecromancerAnne]

Some of the usual Bagil and Sybil admins also really need to fucking stop admemes because as fun as they are sometimes I must have seen 4 clown cars in two days and they ruin any chance of actual roleplay happening that shift.

All else aside, I just wanna say that if you think someone is bein excessive, please actually make an admin complaint or something to that sort as we have been instructed to be much more hands off with Manuel in terms of button pushing and events. Anything that seems excessive or the usual shit you'd see on other servers is 100% not something that should be happening.

[Lazengann]

Changelings do not work at all. Players are afraid to kill them because they're not Security and the rules discourage it, and Security is scared to kill them because they'd be operating off hearsay. Changelings should be removed from the code base in general but especially on the higher roleplay servers.

I hear what you're saying but I think it's hard to argue against a shapeshifter/imposter in a game about paranoia. Should changelings be balanced for MRP? Sure, absolutely. Should they be removed? Only if something else is going to fill the identity-thief gap.

Chameleon items and agent cards

[Sheodir]

Changelings do not work at all. Players are afraid to kill them because they're not Security and the rules discourage it, and Security is scared to kill them because they'd be operating off hearsay. Changelings should be removed from the code base in general but especially on the higher roleplay servers.

Not true from shifts I've been in. There is way more care and intensive investigation, but once the antag is clear people in general still use lethal force to subdue, and we've had a few dead lings as is. The rules also incentivize the Ling to be less murderbony so we had lings use actual infiltration in a bit of a more subtle way compared to the usual tricks. Have they won more often? Sure. But in general only a very narrow part of the population seems that afraid of what I consider a badly worded part of Manuel policy (which imo should say "consider fun" more than "do not kill ever", which the wording implies but a lot of people have gotten isn't what it is meant)

[Dr_bee]

Changeling could do with having its combat ability reduced. It doesnt need armblades and adrenals. It can, and should, be traitor with better infiltration tech and a biology spin instead of being the one man immortal murder machine they currently are.

Wizard rounds just need mulligan activated on manuel and it would be a significantly better gamemode.

Conversion modes dont really have a place in MRP in their current forms. Forced antag is a pain on LRP, let alone MRP.

[Sheodir]

Changeling could do with having its combat ability reduced. It doesnt need armblades and adrenals. It can, and should, be traitor with better infiltration tech and a biology spin instead of being the one man immortal murder machine they currently are.

Wizard rounds just need mulligan activated on manuel and it would be a significantly better gamemode.

Conversion modes dont really have a place in MRP in their current forms. Forced antag is a pain on LRP, let alone MRP.

I feel this drastically overestimates the ling's combat ability. A 'fully combat' ling can, at best, have high armor vs brute damage, armblade, a shield that can absorb a few laser shots AND the adrenals, iirc that's as much as 10 points gets you. That's formidable, but you look like a huge I'M A LING beacon when you do it, and you're not actually that strong vs a crew aware of your presence. I've rarely seen a ling last very long after being obviously ousted.

[Jimmius]

i've played many (two) cult rounds on manuel and they both sucked ass even harder than if the same round had played out on a LRP server, because the crew were kneecapped by the "no validhunting" rule, basically resulting in the cult killing sec and then steamrolling while everyone else typed out high quality RP paragraphs to the harvester cutting off all their limbs

[Sheodir]

i've played many (two) cult rounds on manuel and they both sucked ass even harder than if the same round had played out on a LRP server, because the crew were kneecapped by the "no validhunting" rule, basically resulting in the cult killing sec and then steamrolling while everyone else typed out high quality RP paragraphs to the harvester cutting off all their limbs

This mostly happened in the first few days. Most people have caught on by now "no validhunting" means "no dropping everything you're doing to chase blood cult the second it is announced" and not "use *hug on the cultists as they dunk on you". The most basic thing people learned in these last few days is to seek refuge once cult or other antags are confirmed, usually in Sec. There's still RP, most people are safe, deputization can happen within server guidelines. On the first few days there was a lot of impression the rule just meant you had to ignore obvious antag shit.

[Arathian]

I think cult/revs etc should remain but the antags should be watched over by the admins and be forced to roleplay. No silently kidnapping people etc

You have to make a base and pretty it up, you have to organize, you have to RP a bit your kidnappings etc

Cult specifically should probably not have spells in an RP server. Or have only auxiliary spells like spirit realm, resurrection and healing.

[Jack7D1]

Personally I enjoy secret extended, since it leads to interesting chill rounds without causing people to freak out from code green.

[Sheodir]

Personally I enjoy secret extended, since it leads to interesting chill rounds without causing people to freak out from code green.

Had my best shift as HoS yesterday in Secret Extended, with actual roleplay and a hint of admeme you can have a great shift.

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

I've put a lot of hours into this server since launch and seen at least one iteration of every game mode, here are my thoughts so far.

Traitors, changelings, blood brothers, malf AI, ayyys:
Fun, a million times more interesting than on the LRP servers, no real complaints. But sec should continue to be pushed to not lug around lethals and jump to using them, seen a few instances where that happened and it bummed me out.
Malf AI should be pushed to do borging machines and other things like that, instead of doomsday devices or plasmafloods.

Greenshift:
I've never disliked greenshifts, except for the fact that people ran them into the ground intentionally and acted like even bigger assholes than usual, but that's far less of an issue on Manuel. Actually prefer secret extended to regular extended.

Blob/xenos:
Still hate fighting them and find it fairly boring, and it makes my blood pressure soar whenever there's one right as the shuttle is about to leave. But it's more refreshing to see a big spectacle where everyone has to arm up and go save the station from doom on Manuel, since it's actually rare and feels urgent and special.

Revs:
...It's still revs. Only difference was that revs weren't allowed to use their murderbone pass on random people for lulz and sec couldn't break out the lethals immediately. Not really conducive to interesting roleplay in any way, and there's nothing for either revs or heads/sec to ultimately do but secure cargo and kill each other, as per usual. Better than on the LRP servers, but still pretty boring and felt like a waste of a round.

Cult:
Much like revs, it's still basically just same ol' cult with slightly less murderbone. If a cult actually tried to do some fun spooky religious movement RP they'd just get ground to dust in a heartbeat by sec, and if they pursue their objectives as per normal they're free to powergame away and effortlessly win. Boo powergame, boo TDM.

Ops:
Hate this game mode, always have, especially war ops, and don't really feel any differently at all about it on Manuel. I wish ops kept the murderbone pass but were tasked with doing something other than nuking, even if they were just dropped in to kill the whole crew with small arms, regular bombs, mechs, etc.

Wiz:
Actually seen some pretty fun wiz rounds. Wizard with delimb spell hit-and-running people and taunting sec over comms, or another wizard who changed all the crew into cute animals. Agree that the code here would massively benefit from more funny, confusing, and zany spells instead of stuff designed solely to facilitate murderboning.

[Farquaar]

Revs is way more fun on Manuel. You actually end up seeing some good RP out of it.

I think it could be improved codewise if there were different flavours of revolutionary added, as it can be boring RPing as a communist/anarchist rebel over and over. With minimal code changes, there could be monarchist rebels that want to install a random crewmember as Captain, human/non-human supremacist rebels that want to restructure the station’s racial hierarchy, eco-primitivist rebels that want to remove all AI and silicons from the station. Should make for more interesting roleplay situations, in my opinion, but we’d have to wait for the antag freeze to end.

[Dr_bee]

Revs is way more fun on Manuel. You actually end up seeing some good RP out of it.

I think it could be improved codewise if there were different flavours of revolutionary added, as it can be boring RPing as a communist/anarchist rebel over and over. With minimal code changes, there could be monarchist rebels that want to install a random crewmember as Captain, human/non-human supremacist rebels that want to restructure the station’s racial hierarchy, eco-primitivist rebels that want to remove all AI and silicons from the station. Should make for more interesting roleplay situations, in my opinion, but we’d have to wait for the antag freeze to end.

Are you playing a head of staff during these rounds? because it is basically the same as on LRP, where you get silently murdered in the hallway for existing.

[Sheodir]

Revs is way more fun on Manuel. You actually end up seeing some good RP out of it.

I think it could be improved codewise if there were different flavours of revolutionary added, as it can be boring RPing as a communist/anarchist rebel over and over. With minimal code changes, there could be monarchist rebels that want to install a random crewmember as Captain, human/non-human supremacist rebels that want to restructure the station’s racial hierarchy, eco-primitivist rebels that want to remove all AI and silicons from the station. Should make for more interesting roleplay situations, in my opinion, but we’d have to wait for the antag freeze to end.

Are you playing a head of staff during these rounds? because it is basically the same as on LRP, where you get silently murdered in the hallway for existing.

I played HoS during like three rev rounds and didn't experience completely wordless jumping. On two occasions the revs declared their revolution on chat first, and on the last one they gave me the chance to surrender, which was neat.

[Dr_bee]

Revs is way more fun on Manuel. You actually end up seeing some good RP out of it.

I think it could be improved codewise if there were different flavours of revolutionary added, as it can be boring RPing as a communist/anarchist rebel over and over. With minimal code changes, there could be monarchist rebels that want to install a random crewmember as Captain, human/non-human supremacist rebels that want to restructure the station’s racial hierarchy, eco-primitivist rebels that want to remove all AI and silicons from the station. Should make for more interesting roleplay situations, in my opinion, but we’d have to wait for the antag freeze to end.

Are you playing a head of staff during these rounds? because it is basically the same as on LRP, where you get silently murdered in the hallway for existing.

I played HoS during like three rev rounds and didn't experience completely wordless jumping. On two occasions the revs declared their revolution on chat first, and on the last one they gave me the chance to surrender, which was neat.

Play CMO sometime, it is no different from LRP rev rounds.

[NecromancerAnne]

God I hope I get proven wrong on revs because nothing would make me happier than actually people roleplaying the revolution. It has potential, it's just really rough to try and keep under control administratively.

[Sheodir]

God I hope I get proven wrong on revs because nothing would make me happier than actually people roleplaying the revolution. It has potential, it's just really rough to try and keep under control administratively.

We just need to sit down and discuss proper policy standards, honestly. Not to CM or HRP degrees but a basic 'try and enable fun' attitude. What's fun about wordlessly converting people, and what's fun about squashing revs wordlessly with implants? Both really suck.

Play CMO sometime, it is no different from LRP rev rounds.

For reasons I don't entirely understand most of the Bagilites concentrate around Medbay so I don't doubt that kinda affected the experience negatively

[Not-Dorsidarf]

A lone op on manuel took off all his kit and asked me (chemist) for thermite to get his ID back from the clown who had locked it in the theatre, and since the clown had been stealing chems from the lab all shift I went "sounds about right" and gave him the thermite.

He got fucked later because someone saw him with his chestrig on but I genuinely was bamboozled, good play there.

[cacogen]

extended & erp

[Kryson]

Extended has been the worst by far on Manuel. Sec and medical have nothing to do, lots of people are just standing around SSD or comitt suicide.

There needs to be some sort of conflict for the game to interesting, extended could work if non-antagonists who are not obligated to do their jobs like the assistants form a thieves guild or a drug ring or something.

[wesoda25]

just use dynamic bro

[cacogen]

There needs to be some sort of conflict for the game to interesting

yeah, this. you can't have a good story without conflict

[oranges]

conflict doesn't just come from antags, that's a very binary thinking

[NecromancerAnne]

I'll be honest, extended is proof that conflict can come about naturally just as readily as it comes from antagonists action on their own initiative to drive the round. People will create their own drama.

[Grazyn]

About Ops, I think CM is proof that fast-paced action can work even in a high RP environment. Imagine organizing defenses against war ops in a rational, organized way instead of going "HOP GIVE EVERYONE ALL ACCESS, AI BOLT OPEN THE ARMORY"

[Subtle]

Obviously haven't played enough to speak fairly about mechanical changes to the modes, but one of the more interesting things about them in my own opinion is that they're still run by the antagonists as if they had to operate within the old instant-shuttle time frame. On a server where rounds are perfectly capable of going as long as three hours on average it should hopefully provide some incentive to plan more as OPs and search for willing converts first in the case of Rev/Cult. It's merely anecdote but I'd agree with some folks in the thread that have seen positive changes in the short time that Manuel has existed. Now, granted, this isn't an all-in-one solution by itself but I'd like to imagine that any issue with the way a round is played out can be fixed by positively enabling more effort first and seeking to remove or alter it only when all else fails.

Administrators can and sometimes should have a huge effect on how these things play out too. Reward those willing to go above and beyond- Syndicate Command could offer cash or gear bounties for the live capture and conversion of Heads of Staff during a Revolution. Nar'Sie could grant her minions a vision that holding a sermon in the Chapel or drawing in a specific willing convert will bolster them with unusual gifts. OPs could be given a choice of more outlandish objectives at the cost or benefit of their telecrystals and reputation- hook up that changeling that rode home to Centcomm as the Captain a nice, shiny red button to push when he gets there... The possibilities are quite endless. Mostly it's about giving good play a chance to be recognized and rewarded while encouraging people to take it easy next time they have that opportunity. It's not just that antag who'll remember the RP-enabling greentext you provided them.

Honestly, that's the key from a player perspective. If you're one of these antagonists take it easy in the fun sense and help others to do the same, but don't become a do-nothing threat in the name of some moral high ground either, you'll only disappoint yourself and bitterness is no friend to creativity. If you're a member of command, security, or a silicon then make a good faith attempt to engage the threat before abandoning the station. From that comes the taunting, the kidnappings, the tense shootout exchanges... You don't need to sally forth and face the evil instantly like a hero! in fact it's often more fun to avoid that behavior. Antagonists can't presently control how they'll be reacted to in the end, largely because most of these folks are now fighting years of built-in valid salad reflexes, but you can control the point where that action peaks or de-escalates.

Enough of that leeway can shift general attitudes and provide !FUN! for all even in these gametypes.

[NoxVS]

conflict doesn't just come from antags, that's a very binary thinking

what other conflict is there? people dont have stuff to fight over, and most nonantag conflict isnt allowed

[Subtle]

Interesting that you should bring that up, and I hope you don't mind other opinions, because conflict being entirely "physical" in the sense you mention is enabled only by the fact that a portion of the playerbase mentally checks out of the rounds without it (whether that's for cultural or mechanical reasons is a bit beyond the scope of our discussion.)

There are conflicts of ideas, reputation, ability and more. To give random examples, there's "soft conflict" already built into the relationship between the QM and HoP. Two chefs having a cooking contest is conflict. If you suggest the Chaplain is a flaming moron and that his religion is heresy while recruiting for your own protestant branch of Admemism, that's conflict. Hosting a "revolution" in the form of peaceful operation "Occupy Brig Hallway" is conflict. Being the Captain and demanding your station is a drug free workplace is a conflict too.

I almost feel as if people desperately need that antag excuse to avoid the consequences of their "negative/confrontational attitude" being associated with their ckey.
Disclaimer: Creating conflict puts the burden of maintaining it on you. Boring, one-sided conflicts are exactly how you get a one-way ticket on the bantrain.

[peoplearestrange]

As far as Im aware the heads changed the config so Manuel doesn't have Cult or Rev anymore. There was a brief oversight where it was left in dynamic, but I believe that's now been sorted?
Nuke ops are still in, because there ARE actually ways to roleplay that interestingly. And if Im being honest, done right, war ops can be like a mini war thing and everything that comes with it (Teaming up, montages, PTSD etc etc) and tends to win or fail kinda quickly so people don't usually complain.

[Subtle]

Fair enough, even if they have potential it's slim. Hardly a safe bet to assume the way things are handled will 180* regardless of the optimism and effort involved.

[Grazyn]

Interesting that you should bring that up, and I hope you don't mind other opinions, because conflict being entirely "physical" in the sense you mention is enabled only by the fact that a portion of the playerbase mentally checks out of the rounds without it (whether that's for cultural or mechanical reasons is a bit beyond the scope of our discussion.)

There are conflicts of ideas, reputation, ability and more. To give random examples, there's "soft conflict" already built into the relationship between the QM and HoP. Two chefs having a cooking contest is conflict. If you suggest the Chaplain is a flaming moron and that his religion is heresy while recruiting for your own protestant branch of Admemism, that's conflict. Hosting a "revolution" in the form of peaceful operation "Occupy Brig Hallway" is conflict. Being the Captain and demanding your station is a drug free workplace is a conflict too.

I almost feel as if people desperately need that antag excuse to avoid the consequences of their "negative/confrontational attitude" being associated with their ckey.
Disclaimer: Creating conflict puts the burden of maintaining it on you. Boring, one-sided conflicts are exactly how you get a one-way ticket on the bantrain.

"Act like you don't want to be fired" is a server rule on Manuel. I think there is some leeway but purposefully starting conflicts as non antag such as what you're describing is a sure way to get a "what the fuck are you doing" from admins, people won't do that until rules are relaxed.

[peoplearestrange]

Fair enough, even if they have potential it's slim. Hardly a safe bet to assume the way things are handled will 180* regardless of the optimism and effort involved.

As these modes are still in the game it has potential do be forced by an admin. So we can still see a more... tailored(?) game mode in the game if anyone wishes to try

[NecromancerAnne]

Also worth mentioning that if you can't enjoy the game unless you're in an active dispute or fight with someone, that's a 'not our problem that's a you problem/code problem' as well as not the point. Not everything revolves around getting in fights and you shouldn't be playing just to start shit with as many people as possible so you can flex or get dumpstered and server hop.

I really wish I could say this is hyperbole but it isn't.

[Subtle]

Likewise, allow me to clarify. Accepting that conflict between nonantagonists is a natural, given thing and isn't only relegated to physical altercations is far and away not the same as suggesting nonantagonists should grief a round to "spice it up" for themselves. That's the height of boring and one-sided. Real narrative freedom involves both negative and positive interactions for the betterment of the overall story while demonstrating respect for the actor OOC; this ties directly into a discussion regarding which game types are fitting for a different atmosphere by dint of how they manage antagonist-based conflict.

[cacogen]

conflict doesn't just come from antags, that's a very binary thinking

manufactured conflict over unimportant shit between non-antags usually sucks
but i don't think i implied it had to come from antags

a meteor shower (or a virus...) creates conflict (man vs. nature). exadv1 said in a thread years ago (think it was the one he'd made about shifting the game to a different perspective) after reemerging briefly that he found the pvp nature of the game amusing given he'd originally intended for it to be mostly pve. any sort of disaster the crew has to overcome to survive provides an interesting and natural stimulus for roleplay

[oranges]

Interesting that you should bring that up, and I hope you don't mind other opinions, because conflict being entirely "physical" in the sense you mention is enabled only by the fact that a portion of the playerbase mentally checks out of the rounds without it (whether that's for cultural or mechanical reasons is a bit beyond the scope of our discussion.)

There are conflicts of ideas, reputation, ability and more. To give random examples, there's "soft conflict" already built into the relationship between the QM and HoP. Two chefs having a cooking contest is conflict. If you suggest the Chaplain is a flaming moron and that his religion is heresy while recruiting for your own protestant branch of Admemism, that's conflict. Hosting a "revolution" in the form of peaceful operation "Occupy Brig Hallway" is conflict. Being the Captain and demanding your station is a drug free workplace is a conflict too.

I almost feel as if people desperately need that antag excuse to avoid the consequences of their "negative/confrontational attitude" being associated with their ckey.
Disclaimer: Creating conflict puts the burden of maintaining it on you. Boring, one-sided conflicts are exactly how you get a one-way ticket on the bantrain.

[peoplearestrange]

Interesting that you should bring that up, and I hope you don't mind other opinions, because conflict being entirely "physical" in the sense you mention is enabled only by the fact that a portion of the playerbase mentally checks out of the rounds without it (whether that's for cultural or mechanical reasons is a bit beyond the scope of our discussion.)

There are conflicts of ideas, reputation, ability and more. To give random examples, there's "soft conflict" already built into the relationship between the QM and HoP. Two chefs having a cooking contest is conflict. If you suggest the Chaplain is a flaming moron and that his religion is heresy while recruiting for your own protestant branch of Admemism, that's conflict. Hosting a "revolution" in the form of peaceful operation "Occupy Brig Hallway" is conflict. Being the Captain and demanding your station is a drug free workplace is a conflict too.

I almost feel as if people desperately need that antag excuse to avoid the consequences of their "negative/confrontational attitude" being associated with their ckey.
Disclaimer: Creating conflict puts the burden of maintaining it on you. Boring, one-sided conflicts are exactly how you get a one-way ticket on the bantrain.

I skipped over this before, and yeah actually you have some excellent points. Conflict is the base of what can be part of interesting roleplay, though it is not the be all end all. A film with only conflict seems forced. You need resolution, maybe comedy, maybe some action, maybe some lessons learnt, maybe saving a cat, maybe romance(ERP BANT!).
I think this is why I strongly try to apply the unwritten rules, if its funny or interesting, then it gets left (I think this used to be phrased something like "if you make us laugh it gets a pass").
None of these things are the REAL issue though, its between deciding/understand the difference between creating drama and wanting to be the centre of attention with very little room for others (murderboning sits nicely in this last idea).
All this relies heavily on both admins understand where to make that call and players having more self regulation on whats interesting or fun for others.
Basically we need quality players and quality admins, and often we get a few bad apples on both sides which spoils the image/harmony.

[cacogen]

manufactured conflict over unimportant shit between non-antags usually sucks

[Vekter]

Rev is fantastic on MRP - it's so much less HOLE UP IN SEC bullshit. Actually gets kinda fun for once.

[Kryson]

Assistants needs to be given leeway to commit crimes since this is integral to how the game works by providing sec with something to do on extended and providing some cover to antagonists on non-extended. The requirement that you should act like you want to keep your job should be relaxed or done away with for assistants for this reason.

If you are playing medical and have two patients in two hours, or playing sec and have no arrests in the same time frame you are going to have a bad experience. You need a good mix of job gameplay and free form RP gameplay.

[Screemonster]

providing sec with something to do

the problem is that most players that trot out this line don't put any consideration into whether sec players want or need "something to do" right now, and certainly not whether the "something" they want is what the tiding shithead in question feels like providing

[XDTM]

Assistants needs to be given leeway to commit crimes since this is integral to how the game works by providing sec with something to do on extended and providing some cover to antagonists on non-extended. The requirement that you should act like you want to keep your job should be relaxed or done away with for assistants for this reason.

If you are playing medical and have two patients in two hours, or playing sec and have no arrests in the same time frame you are going to have a bad experience. You need a good mix of job gameplay and free form RP gameplay.

An explicit exception of this caliber would definitely push assistant players back into low-rp territory and we'd be back where we started. Hell, it would be nice if assistants actually assisting was the norm instead.
Sec and Medbay needing conflict to work is a bit of an issue, but not solved by trusting the most toe-lining players with the job. Instead it could be helped by either giving some down-time activities to these roles, or alternatively adding minor semi-antags (like vandals in more rp-heavy servers) with the actual license to cause grief, which has a higher chance of working in a server where that doesn't automatically mean license to murderbone.

[Kryson]

providing sec with something to do

the problem is that most players that trot out this line don't put any consideration into whether sec players want or need "something to do" right now, and certainly not whether the "something" they want is what the tiding shithead in question feels like providing

They should have signed up for assistant if they would rather do chair RP for two hours instead of fighting crime. Of course negative forms of tiding exists, but crime in some form is essential for the game to work.

I must admit i have only played 3 extended rounds on Manuel, but they have all been really awful, worse than a bad extended round on LRP.