CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

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skoglol
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby skoglol » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:20 pm #537510

Arathian wrote:So, I played a few games with removed cloning last night on Terry (Dynamic):

Event hall has been doing pretty well with it, this says more about the player mentality on terry tbh.

Arathian wrote:What changes I would like without reverting:

1) Re-attach head surgery.

2) A medicine that fixes overall organ decay on only corpses and essentially resets the timer to 0 so doctors don't have to spend 30m fixing each individual organ from a single person.

3) A better indicator that someone is missing organs after an organ spill. A visual indicator (like a burst out stomach) and an inspection indicator with bold red letter (This person's chest is burst open and all his organs have spilled!)

4) Probably empty cloning should stay in. I know it's against the spirit of the PR but there is no reason it shouldn't stay. Getting enough humanized monkeys to serve highpop for medbay is basically impossible, even when they raid genetics (in sci now) and virology.


1: Exists. Its the same as other limbs, four step prosthetic replacement surgery.

2: Exists in strange reagent. Likely to get nerfed though, as organs should be fixed through surgery or replaced. You can print the important cybernetics roundstart now. Use stasis beds or formaldehyde while working to prevent further decay.

3: Agreed, I am working on putting that into the health scanners.

4: Monkey cubes can be ordered from cargo or made in xenobio and botany. Monkeys are not a rare resource at all, but aren't strictly necessary either. There are some edge cases where a brain transplant might be easier.



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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:27 pm #537511

skoglol wrote:snip
Arathian wrote:snip


Manuel has been doing fine too. Gotta say I doubt the whole "EXPERIENCED PLAYERS WHO KNOW THEIR JOBS" if they don't know prosthetic limb surgery can attach any and all limbs, head included, in their organic form. Pretty baseline stuff, and just shows how much "MDs" usually could get away with not knowing the job at all.

Only valid complaint was the organ bursting which yeah needs a better signal for it.

Honestly I think balancing monkeys is a bit of a fool's errand anyway because I see this as the first step in reworking or retooling Genetics entirely. It is by far the most neglected department and is currently in a weird void where its benefits aren't that good, its flaws aren't that good, and its "gameplay loop" makes Virology look like Ikaruga with how boring and mindless it is.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Arathian » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:35 pm #537514

skoglol wrote:Event hall has been doing pretty well with it, this says more about the player mentality on terry tbh.


Event hall has way less antags, has mostly newbies who don't know how to be destructive and it has an increased chance of extended. Of course "no cloning" does better on the server where it's not as likely you will be mass murdered. That isn't a surprise. But the change affects all servers, including terry. We didn't have those problems before.


skoglol wrote:Exists. Its the same as other limbs, four step prosthetic replacement surgery.


I actually didn't know this was a thing. Fair enough then.

skoglol wrote: Exists in strange reagent. Likely to get nerfed though, as organs should be fixed through surgery or replaced. You can print the important cybernetics roundstart now. Use stasis beds or formaldehyde while working to prevent further decay.


This simply means no one will fix decayed corpses. Staying perma-dead cause someone hid you in the closet long enough is bad.

skoglol wrote:Monkey cubes can be ordered from cargo or made in xenobio and botany. Monkeys are not a rare resource at all, but aren't strictly necessary either. There are some edge cases where a brain transplant might be easier.


Then put a machine to humanize monkeys in medbay. Right now, you can't humanize monkeys in the medbay, only in sci.

My opinion is the same as above. Playing yesterday felt far worse than usual. If you think that will change over time, sure, but I am telling you like it is.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Arathian » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:38 pm #537515

Sheodir wrote:Manuel has been doing fine too.


Doublepost because, holy shit, this is the most retarded counter-argument.

Of course it's fine on servers where you are not allowed to tide or escalate and it's 30% or so extended and rounds last for 4 hours. How is that a counter-argument to the fact that, in most servers where rounds like 45m-1h and a lot of death happens, revivals of more messed up corpses simply don't happen?

I know manuel is the new cool thing, but normal servers exist too and they should be kept in mind when balancing shit.
Last edited by Arathian on Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:40 pm #537516

Arathian wrote:snippety snap

Of course your experience will suck more at first, because again, a big part of this change is making MDs actually LEARN THEIR JOB. The fact some got away with not knowing basic shit like limb reattachment shows the standards have truly been that low for this long. 90% of MDs knew how to: clone, apply patches and heal items, cryo and maybe MAYBE checked out the surgery page obsessively when someone needed to get a mechanical limb done in.

That's not enough. Organ decay isn't even that hard to fix, it just requires them to learn the surgery. Reviving someone requires an actual brain now and it's pretty great.

EDIT SO NO DOUBLEPOST:
Arathian wrote:snippen 2 bad argument boogaloo


That was more of a "hey most places this has been fine", and Event Hall (where players can get pretty wild despite being new) and Manuel (where things can STILL get pretty lethal and often despite the MRP) have indeed been fine. Terry isn't exactly shitterland 3000 either so I dunno where that impression came from. The point there is that if people can learn in one server, they can learn in others. The immediate experience might have been more negative but it just shows a well trained MD team can learn how to handle this shit.

And hey, worst case scenario, we split a LRP and MRP codease. God knows I'm done with CRAB-17 in MRP.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Arathian » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:44 pm #537517

So how do you fix when a traitor just murdered 2/3rds of sec and all of engi and we have a delam incoming and also there are reports of lings in maint fast enough?

Because that was literally the scenario last night. Previously, it was balanced by at least chucking a few corpses in cloning and surgery reviving a few of the less messed up ones. Now you can't do that.

You can't say "it's fine people will adapt people will learn their jobs yada yada" and not explain how it's balanced in actual higher speed servers.

Also, I am not an MD. I didn't know about the head surgery thing because of that. But even with it, you still need to grab a corpse, find the head, re-attach it, fix the organs and then revive it. For each corpse. When we had a nightmare yesterday that removed all organs and beheaded people, that is impossible.

And hey, worst case scenario, we split a LRP and MRP codease


It's not split so far and what affects manuel also affects terry.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:55 pm #537520

Arathian wrote:snop


Very simple.

The steps to fix this are there. The limb grower, the surgery room, the relative speed with which you can chem and surgery people back up if you're a decent MD - I'd say a full revival takes a minute half if you have everything prepared, from organless head detached lad to full rez - sure, it'll be difficult, but that's the thing.

If you allow a janitor to murder all of sec and several other people and then somehow also allow this person to debrain AND deorgan almost every corpse they come across, it shouldn't be an easy process to heal them. And with cloning there, it is. If the round went this far, then cloning is the least of your problems. The shuttle would've been called regardless. If we assume this masterful antagonist nobody can catch is as strong and fast in a non reactive station as you describe, consider they maybe deserve the win?
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Arathian » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:56 pm #537522

And with cloning there, it is.


And the game is balanced around that in LRP servers, hence why it feels bad.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:02 pm #537523

Arathian wrote:
And with cloning there, it is.


And the game is balanced around that in LRP servers, hence why it feels bad.


It... really isn't. There's this illusion the game is in any way finely balanced. The truth is if you put in a feature it will go through almost 100% of the time. Podcloning wasn't an indepth decision process where we measured if it should be in the game or not, it was a "huh I guess this will be fun" and ta-da it goes through. The game's combat system wasn't balanced around this, it was you people on Terry that somehow let all of sec get killed by a janitor.

And second, even if it was, we can now rebalance the game around cloning being missing, LRP or otherwise.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby adamkad1 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:00 pm #537532

Important thing is, people wanna play the game, they dont wanna stare at the game while being dead till it restarts. The less ways to fix someone from death there will be, the more paranoid people will be, they will attempt to stay away from other people, or react aggresively and beat people up for approaching them. And that sucks.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:02 pm #537533

adamkad1 wrote:Important thing is, people wanna play the game, they dont wanna stare at the game while being dead till it restarts. The less ways to fix someone from death there will be, the more paranoid people will be, they will attempt to stay away from other people, or react aggresively and beat people up for approaching them. And that sucks.

The paranoia is part of the game, and a good part of the game at that. Keeping a one tile distance from people, not letting them get close unawares, all part of the game

Dying shouldn't be fun (by itself anyway)
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby nianjiilical » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:22 pm #537536

Arathian wrote:Then put a machine to humanize monkeys in medbay. Right now, you can't humanize monkeys in the medbay, only in sci.


not to try and dissuade your arguments but you can humanize monkeys with 1u of mutadone applied via dropper from the pharmacy
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:38 pm #537540

organ decay isnt really that important now that organs self heal when you are alive (if you get revived with damaged organs it ll heal all in 2 min of wait), if you have been dead for more than 15 min why havent you already server hopped lol

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Anonmare » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:45 pm #537543

Epipens have formaldehyde which stops organ decay. Why aren't y'all using them?
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby SkeletalElite » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:54 pm #537574

skoglol wrote:
4: Monkey cubes can be ordered from cargo or made in xenobio and botany. Monkeys are not a rare resource at all, but aren't strictly necessary either. There are some edge cases where a brain transplant might be easier.


I don't think these edge cases are going to be as uncommon as you think. All it takes is for someone to have their body put in a maint locker and by the time they reach medbay there will likely be so much decay that SR / transplant is the easiest thing.
Also when it comes to SR, my experience is that you're lucky for the chem fridge to have even basic healing meds. Rounds where someone spent the time to actually make the good stuff are few and far between.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Shadowflame909 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:38 pm #537590

Dying shouldn't be boring

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:49 pm #537593

Shadowflame909 wrote:Dying shouldn't be boring


Dying is boring in either case - the "fun" there is to be had lies in the solving the dying. One is an engaging procedure that makes players actively use game knowledge and investigation to bring people back, and the other is cloning
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby PKPenguin321 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:22 pm #537603

Sheodir wrote:If you allow a janitor to murder all of sec and several other people and then somehow also allow this person to debrain AND deorgan almost every corpse they come across, it shouldn't be an easy process to heal them.

Excuse me? Killing and beheading/organ spilling a corpse is easy as shit. I've gone on a rampage where I destroyed at least 10 people and stole their brains with my bare hands and a cake hat. You can't pin the fact that "killing is easy in general" on one guy in this thread (he """allowed""" it to happen) and then use that as an argument for reviving to be vastly more difficult. How does that make sense?
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby kopoba » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:28 pm #537604

Sheodir wrote:Of course your experience will suck more at first, because again, a big part of this change is making MDs actually LEARN THEIR JOB. The fact some got away with not knowing basic shit like limb reattachment shows the standards have truly been that low for this long. 90% of MDs knew how to: clone, apply patches and heal items, cryo and maybe MAYBE checked out the surgery page obsessively when someone needed to get a mechanical limb done in.

MD know how to do their job its just take toooo much time to revive dudes rn.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:47 pm #537608

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Sheodir wrote:If you allow a janitor to murder all of sec and several other people and then somehow also allow this person to debrain AND deorgan almost every corpse they come across, it shouldn't be an easy process to heal them.

Excuse me? Killing and beheading/organ spilling a corpse is easy as shit. I've gone on a rampage where I destroyed at least 10 people and stole their brains with my bare hands and a cake hat. You can't pin the fact that "killing is easy in general" on one guy in this thread (he """allowed""" it to happen) and then use that as an argument for reviving to be vastly more difficult. How does that make sense?


The issue here is this retarded double standard of "it's easy to murderbone but somehow supremely difficult to stop a murderboner!" when honestly in the era of antag freeze save for War Ops most operatives really aren't that tough to crack. Even lings are kind of really vulnerable, being hard as shit to kill but as easy as any human to contain if ousted, even if they somehow dumped all their points into combat improvements.

Yes, KILLING isn't difficult, but it'll fucking oust you as a super badman very quickly too and stopping a known criminal is rather easy. The only thing that makes revival "pretty much impossible" is getting rid of the brain proper, which... also made cloning impossible and ended up requiring pods. Things aren't that different, the exception is that revival now takes skill vs pressing a button - hell, again, I'm testing my limits with humanized monkeys and crushing and eradicating everything that I can and practiced full organ revival + proper revival takes, as said, a bit under a minute and a half, which isn't that far away from clone timers themselves (upgraded)

Pls play more

kopoba wrote:
Sheodir wrote:Of course your experience will suck more at first, because again, a big part of this change is making MDs actually LEARN THEIR JOB. The fact some got away with not knowing basic shit like limb reattachment shows the standards have truly been that low for this long. 90% of MDs knew how to: clone, apply patches and heal items, cryo and maybe MAYBE checked out the surgery page obsessively when someone needed to get a mechanical limb done in.

MD know how to do their job its just take toooo much time to revive dudes rn.


If it takes too long they're still looking up the wiki rather than doing this shit fast, they'll adapt. It really is kind of almost too easy once you know what to get to revive people, and as said I've only seen Terry have this massive pile of unrevived dead bodies in particularly bad shifts vs Manuel and Event Bay where people are... fine? Completely and utterly a-ok.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Arathian » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:09 pm #537611

We all wish we were as good as you sheodir.

Unfortunately, since the standard player isn't as amazing and perfect at ss13 as you, maybe we should consider that in the balancing?
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:19 pm #537612

Arathian wrote:We all wish we were as good as you sheodir.

Unfortunately, since the standard player isn't as amazing and perfect at ss13 as you, maybe we should consider that in the balancing?


Dude I know this is a diss but my point isn't to go OH MAN I'M SO GREAT it's oh hey this shit is really easy if you prepare and are aware of the surgeries

I feel everyone is jumping the gun rather than learning this stuff and letting it play out

Although I admit my bias as one of those filthy MRPers I haven't had to deal with real Bagil hours style chaos in Medbay yet
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Muncher21 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:23 pm #537613

Arathian wrote:Unfortunately, since the standard player isn't as amazing and perfect at ss13 as you, maybe we should consider that in the balancing?

Time to make setting up the SM take two button presses on a computer because "Engineer players can't be amazing and perfect" to set it up every time.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby SkeletalElite » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:33 pm #537614

Muncher21 wrote:
Arathian wrote:Unfortunately, since the standard player isn't as amazing and perfect at ss13 as you, maybe we should consider that in the balancing?

Time to make setting up the SM take two button presses on a computer because "Engineer players can't be amazing and perfect" to set it up every time.



The difference is that the SM is an inanimate object and the dead person is someone who wants to play the video game.

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:08 pm.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Muncher21 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:03 pm #537624

SkeletalElite wrote:The difference is that the SM is an inanimate object and the dead person is someone who wants to play the video game.

The SM not being setup effects the entire station. Playing on a station without power is boring, and many jobs can't function without it. Why should the entire station's fun be ruined by an engineer who can't play his role?

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:23 pm #537628

SkeletalElite wrote:
Muncher21 wrote:
Arathian wrote:Unfortunately, since the standard player isn't as amazing and perfect at ss13 as you, maybe we should consider that in the balancing?

Time to make setting up the SM take two button presses on a computer because "Engineer players can't be amazing and perfect" to set it up every time.



The difference is that the SM is an inanimate object and the dead person is someone who wants to play the video game.

The SM is something that if improperly setup will literally end the videogame for everyone on the station pretty damn fast. The equivalency is truthful.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Arathian » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:47 pm #537630

Sheodir wrote:The SM is something that if improperly setup will literally end the videogame for everyone on the station pretty damn fast. The equivalency is truthful.


Multiple people have to set up a total of 1 SM. It's not comparable to the steady stream of dead bodies.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby PKPenguin321 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:53 pm #537631

Sheodir wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Sheodir wrote:If you allow a janitor to murder all of sec and several other people and then somehow also allow this person to debrain AND deorgan almost every corpse they come across, it shouldn't be an easy process to heal them.

Excuse me? Killing and beheading/organ spilling a corpse is easy as shit. I've gone on a rampage where I destroyed at least 10 people and stole their brains with my bare hands and a cake hat. You can't pin the fact that "killing is easy in general" on one guy in this thread (he """allowed""" it to happen) and then use that as an argument for reviving to be vastly more difficult. How does that make sense?


The issue here is this retarded double standard of "it's easy to murderbone but somehow supremely difficult to stop a murderboner!" when [it's always perfectly easy to stop a murderboner 100% of the time].

Yeah no, I don't believe you. Citation needed. Play more.

Sheodir wrote:Yes, KILLING isn't difficult, but ... [you can validhunt]

So you agree with my point entirely, that killing is easy and that revival has been made harder. Good to hear. Not sure what that whole tangent about you being able to 100% reliably kill murderboners before they can even murder more than one person was about.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Cobby » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:05 pm #537632

I actually agree with this, hence why I look forward to some of the BS antag powers/arsenals getting toned down a bit.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:47 am #537647

Arathian wrote:
Sheodir wrote:The SM is something that if improperly setup will literally end the videogame for everyone on the station pretty damn fast. The equivalency is truthful.


Multiple people have to set up a total of 1 SM. It's not comparable to the steady stream of dead bodies.


Multiple people dealing with a stream of dead bodies. Which are still individually infinitesimally less complicated than a SM.

The excess of people who complain about this and admit to not playing MD is staggering.

PKPenguin321 wrote:I have edited your argument to say you're wrong I am very smart


Classy
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:15 am #537671

Sheodir wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:I have edited your argument to say you're wrong I am very smart


Classy

That was literally your argument.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby NoxVS » Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:31 am #537675

I think the limb grower should become a roundstart machine now that you can’t clone. It’s either that or have engineering build one every shift. In reality it rarely gets built, along with other medical machinery like the organ harvester
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Taraiph » Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:10 am #537677

Sheodir wrote:Multiple people dealing with a stream of dead bodies. Which are still individually infinitesimally less complicated than a SM.

The excess of people who complain about this and admit to not playing MD is staggering.


Not quite. Multiple people have to deal with a stream of dead bodies on top of everything else that they have to do. Even with cloning dealing with 4-5 dead bodies was a chore, now it'll take even longer than it did before. I can set up the fucking SM by myself and have it running without a hiccup in five-six minutes. It's not improving my experience in medbay or making it any more "fun", it's tedious and time-consuming when it's not frustrating due to the fact that people's organs can randomly take damage to the point of failure even after I've fixed it three times and replaced it twice. All the fun/time-saving/useful aspects of cloning that I could make use of are replaced with hoping sci isn't neck-deep in xenobio or botany isn't balls-deep in deathnettle to do the same thing except boring. If there's anything about the cloning removal that I'd be upset about at this point, it's that it's fucking boring.

NoxVS wrote:I think the limb grower should become a roundstart machine now that you can’t clone. It’s either that or have engineering build one every shift. In reality it rarely gets built, along with other medical machinery like the organ harvester


Most medical machinery tends to go unused in favor of the station being blown to smithereens by the forty-five minute mark. In addition, space in medbay tends to be tight and building new stuff that doesn't get in my way is hard.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:22 am #537695

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Sheodir wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:I have edited your argument to say you're wrong I am very smart


Classy

That was literally your argument.

The argument was that killing is indeed easy but on the same coin so is killing murderboners, and thus it isn't this weird double standard where killing is only easy for murderboners and somehow incredibly difficult to stop. Thus, the "murdertide" of having one thousand bodies every shift is a false equivalency. That point was made clear, but you had to do your little edit because you're oh so quirky and fuck actual discussion am I right?

NoxVS wrote:I think the limb grower should become a roundstart machine now that you can’t clone. It’s either that or have engineering build one every shift. In reality it rarely gets built, along with other medical machinery like the organ harvester


Prosthetics can fit the bill for limbs, but instead of the limb grower for organs I think Med should start with a fridge with a few organs around. Use a bit of the extra spare space now.

Taraiph wrote:Not quite. Multiple people have to deal with a stream of dead bodies on top of everything else that they have to do. Even with cloning dealing with 4-5 dead bodies was a chore, now it'll take even longer than it did before. [...] All the fun/time-saving/useful aspects of cloning that I could make use of are replaced with hoping sci isn't neck-deep in xenobio or botany isn't balls-deep in deathnettle to do the same thing except boring. If there's anything about the cloning removal that I'd be upset about at this point, it's that it's fucking boring.

NoxVS wrote:snip


Most medical machinery tends to go unused in favor of the station being blown to smithereens by the forty-five minute mark. In addition, space in medbay tends to be tight and building new stuff that doesn't get in my way is hard.


On top of everything what? It's Medbay. Its literal main priority is saving lives. The job has been so braindead and easy that yes, most MDs see the job as the "faff and fuck around" job since one person pressing the cloning button has become more than enough to deal with nearly every situation there. There were no real fun or interesting aspects of cloning, not comparatively to new Medical, which actually takes a little more effort. And on the space front, with cloning gone Medbays kind of have a bunch of dead space, and that isn't including the dead space we had in stations it had been moved to Sci proper and we had huge morgues.

If there's one thing I agree on is that we lack post cloning documentation. The guides for surgery and medical have to be updated ASAP. The sooner people learn how to stabilize bodies and stop decay the better, and it's getting embarrassing seeing people OD others on formaldehyde and husk them whilst trying to preserve the organs.
I play Holden Westmacott. Sec/PM main most of the time.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby oranges » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:45 am #537710

you two knock it off or you're on post approval

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby kopoba » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:29 am #537717

Also guys what about plasmamens, Ethereals and other dudes without heart. Right now i dont see any way to revive them in same body even its health okay. Probably strange reagent but ive seen it 1 out of 20 shifts or even less.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:04 pm #537721

kopoba wrote:Also guys what about plasmamens, Ethereals and other dudes without heart. Right now i dont see any way to revive them in same body even its health okay. Probably strange reagent but ive seen it 1 out of 20 shifts or even less.

There are measures to save them (Plasmamen are arguably easier than humans once you know what you're doing) but as said documentation is rather lacking. I'll try and update the wiki a bit but not sure if it's something you should update to reflect the lack of cloning when it's still on Test Merge phase.

But regardless instructions in how to save other species should be put there.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Grazyn » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:50 pm #537727

Can't you just build a surgery table under a shower and revive them like normal?

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby NoxVS » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:58 pm #537728

Grazyn wrote:Can't you just build a surgery table under a shower and revive them like normal?

They don’t have a heart to be defibbed.
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thehogshotgun wrote:How does having jannies like you, who have more brain tumor than brain benefit the server

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby OFQ » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:02 pm #537730

I'm pretty sure you can swap brains between species
Image

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby NoxVS » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:06 pm #537731

OFQ wrote:I'm pretty sure you can swap brains between species

That won’t work when that “exploit” is “fixed” which seems to be a goal that will eventually happen
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thehogshotgun wrote:How does having jannies like you, who have more brain tumor than brain benefit the server

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:29 pm #537732

NoxVS wrote:
OFQ wrote:I'm pretty sure you can swap brains between species

That won’t work when that “exploit” is “fixed” which seems to be a goal that will eventually happen

That was never cited as an exploit far as I'm aware

There are other ways to revive Plasmamen (skip defib, rush to revival surgery, shower helps) but headswapping them also works just fine.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Taraiph » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:42 pm #537739

Sheodir wrote:
On top of everything what? It's Medbay. Its literal main priority is saving lives. The job has been so braindead and easy that yes, most MDs see the job as the "faff and fuck around" job since one person pressing the cloning button has become more than enough to deal with nearly every situation there. There were no real fun or interesting aspects of cloning, not comparatively to new Medical, which actually takes a little more effort. And on the space front, with cloning gone Medbays kind of have a bunch of dead space, and that isn't including the dead space we had in stations it had been moved to Sci proper and we had huge morgues.

If there's one thing I agree on is that we lack post cloning documentation. The guides for surgery and medical have to be updated ASAP. The sooner people learn how to stabilize bodies and stop decay the better, and it's getting embarrassing seeing people OD others on formaldehyde and husk them whilst trying to preserve the organs.


That's where you're wrong, and thinking of cloning in the typical "free revive machine" way that everyone on this server thinks of it as, but it had much more potential that that. Clone a nightmare endlessly to give out hearts of darkness to the crew. Clone a plasmaman and learn how to treat suitless plasmamen. Clone an ethereal and drain their blood for any other ethereals on the station, or because you want to fuck around with liquid electricity. Experiment on an empty clone and figure out novel mixes for chemicals and better ways to treat toxin damage. Farm dissection points with empty clones so that science can get you advanced tools and tend wounds won't take three minutes a person anymore. Turn the cargo bay into a miasma farm using cloning pods and electrified grilles. Clone every species and graft their organs into you, becoming the übermensch. This was all stuff that's been possible until now with new medicine.

But you're right, new medbay is a more engaging, more fun experience. Now I can do the exact same three step surgery on every single person that walks through the doors. Now I can print out cybernetic organs because doing three different organ-healing surgeries would take thrice as long. Now I can ignore any new medical chemicals entirely because I can't get monkey cubes from botany/genetics and the only chem dispenser is being used to push out industrial amounts of salicyclic acid. Now I can not do experimental surgeries because there's four different people dying on my doorstep and three different miasma viruses are flying around the station. When I say that medbay is boring, I mean that it's same-y and interesting medical dilemmas are rare. I want more stuff to do in medbay, not have to choose between hand-washing dishes and putting them in a dishwasher.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Sheodir » Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:08 pm #537742

Taraiph wrote:snope


You're right in that the examples you describe are all interesting things cloning could somewhat provide, even if one would have to argue about balancing a bit (adding resources to cloning could probably balance this a fair bit) and they are good arguments for why cloning should be kept in some form or shape, possibly to make these new functions the main job of the geneticist, since they are all infinitesimally more interesting than rolling gene blocks.

However, none of them are really arguments for cloning to be kept as the revival method. Being able to clone bodies for all these fun usages is cool, I admit, but is there any reason why it has to be a revival method? Make all clones braindead by default and we can actually balance out these fun strategies whilst still keeping MDs focused on reviving people in more engaging ways. You describe it as "the same three step surgery" but truth is as most complaints will tell you the actual process of reviving someone now requires you to actually analyze them and backtrack the individual sources of damage done to a person rather than the fire and forget clone button. I think we could dump a lot of this "fun project" mentality on geneticist, personally, since it's a job I feel the current main loop is lame as hell anyway, but these fun out there projects shouldn't be the main gameplay of Medbay which should be more about actual healing and such imo.

(All in all good post thanks for being an island of actual argumentation in this mess)
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby kopoba » Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:31 pm #537748

Sheodir wrote:
NoxVS wrote:
OFQ wrote:I'm pretty sure you can swap brains between species

That won’t work when that “exploit” is “fixed” which seems to be a goal that will eventually happen

That was never cited as an exploit far as I'm aware

There are other ways to revive Plasmamen (skip defib, rush to revival surgery, shower helps) but headswapping them also works just fine.

Well revival surgery also includes step with defibs that will fail i think.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Anuv » Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:13 pm #537751

Have cloning someone bring their ghost into a dangerous and scary world of purgatory. Smoke, chasms, spirit monsters. Only if you can manage to get out do you get cloned.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Lazengann » Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:33 pm #537758

Remove cryo healing too but keep it as a way to bring down the body temperature of corpses who died in lava

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby BadSS13Player » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:52 pm #537769

When talking about it in deadchat or in OOC people are usually of the opinion that it's a bad change that coders are going to force on them anyway, and that being in a testmerge means that it's going to be merged in some form anyway. I, of course, did see some people say that they like the change, but I'm pretty sure they're outnumbered by the people who don't.

IMO the PRs that were merged in order for this to be even considered for a testmerge have made it a lot more feasible to have cloning as a fallback. Since that's the case, cloning should not be removed but either not available roundstart or should not have upgradeable speed or mutation chance. All of that is simple to do in code right now and I can make a PR for any of those options.

Additionally, I don't really like surgery that much. It takes a long time and isn't very engaging, it's just the same steps every time with no space to innovate/improvise. The tend wounds surgeries are by far the biggest offenders, being three-step surgeries which take a very long time to complete (especially if the patient has clothes on).

This change kinda fucks with plasmamen a lot, making the only roundstart available revival method be a transplant to a human body or Strange Reagent (which is only theoretically roundstart available).

Many people that are in support of the removal in this thread seem to say this is a good thing or not as bad of a thing because dying should suck. That's bullshit, being dead isn't good for anyone but the one who killed you (either an antag or a shitter) and you make everyone spend less time playing the game so that MDs can have their gameplay.
Muncher21 wrote:Time to make setting up the SM take two button presses on a computer because "Engineer players can't be amazing and perfect" to set it up every time.

That's a non-argument. Setting up the default SM setup is quite quick and takes 0 thought, just mechanical button clicks. You also have like 15 minutes to do it and won't be diminishing anyone's fun if you don't do it as quick as possible.
Cobby wrote:I actually agree with this, hence why I look forward to some of the BS antag powers/arsenals getting toned down a bit.

Why does that have anything to do with cloning?
skoglol wrote:Event hall has been doing pretty well with it, this says more about the player mentality on terry tbh.

In my experience, it's usually doing terrible or doing well only because of Strange Reagent, which you want to nerf. Haven't played on Terry during the testmerge.
Anonmare wrote:Epipens have formaldehyde which stops organ decay. Why aren't y'all using them?

Epipens are a rare-ish non-recyclable item. Paramedics already start with a bottle of formaldehyde and a syringe, it should probably be their job to do it.
Lazengann wrote:Remove cryo healing too but keep it as a way to bring down the body temperature of corpses who died in lava

Cryo is basically the only way to cure toxin damage or all-around high amounts of damage without consequences or without waiting a long time. It is also usable when there are no MDs around.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:11 pm #537771

Sheodir wrote:And hey, worst case scenario, we split a LRP and MRP codease. God knows I'm done with CRAB-17 in MRP.

May as well make one the normal codebase and the other the HRP codebase if that happens because MRP dies if it requires a different playstyle due to code changes.

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