are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

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are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby deedubya » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:31 am #542794

Recently, mappers have been playing around with the mechanics of having the station itself exist on connected and interactive z-levels. MMM's work on donut has been a particularly notable example of this. But, in all this excitement to see if we can, nobody's stopped to ask if we should.

Is adding a third dimension in a game strictly bound to two dimensions really a good idea, from both a design and gameplay perspective? I fear that the potential complications that this change can bring about are entirely unnecessary, and don't necessarily bring any meaningful mechanical depth to the game. It feels like more of a "hey look at this neat trick we can do in the code" than something designed to enhance the player experience.
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:02 am #542802

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:13 am #542804

Lifeweb has this and they're fine. I believe Bay and some other servers may have it as well, BUT I don't think any of those servers have to deal with:
1. Singularities
2. Teslas
3. Dragons swooping from above (this can be considered weird right now, but this would mean that our rooms and station would be really fucking tall)
4. Chasms (there used to be chasms that only dropped you down one z-level wtf where did they go)
5. Blobs
and probably some other shit that hasn't been thought about.

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby deedubya » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:24 am #542808

Ayy Lemoh wrote:3. Dragons swooping from above (this can be considered weird right now, but this would mean that our rooms and station would be really fucking tall)

The third dimension in general has been pretty easily handwaved due to it just not really existing in our mindset.
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby SpaceManiac » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:43 am #542812

Ayy Lemoh wrote:4. Chasms (there used to be chasms that only dropped you down one z-level wtf where did they go)

chasms automatically switch to dropping you down one z-level if there is a z-level configured as "down"

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Armhulen » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:54 am #542814

deedubya wrote:Recently, mappers have been playing around with the mechanics of having the station itself exist on connected and interactive z-levels. MMM's work on donut has been a particularly notable example of this. But, in all this excitement to see if we can, nobody's stopped to ask if we should.

Is adding a third dimension in a game strictly bound to two dimensions really a good idea, from both a design and gameplay perspective? I fear that the potential complications that this change can bring about are entirely unnecessary, and don't necessarily bring any meaningful mechanical depth to the game. It feels like more of a "hey look at this neat trick we can do in the code" than something designed to enhance the player experience.


Here's your shit thread, where you have the gall to claim Mmmiracles has been making a multi z map since August of last year to show off. The complete nads on this guy to really say the numerous coders and mappers throughout the years (a lot of which fucked off, mind you) did it just for themselves, without even considering if it's an actual feature tg should have or the problems that come with it. The man who did not join the multi-z test server miracles threw up even for a second, and has otherwise not played a LICK of multi-z beyond winter ball believes that the """""potential complications""""" make it more of a hassle than it's worth.

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Screemonster » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:59 am #542816

I played on a server where the brig had a walkway over it for the warden to watch everyone and I was detective so I didn't have brig access to actually put someone in a cell so instead I dragged them to the walkway and yeeted them over the edge

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Armhulen » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:03 am #542817

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby deedubya » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:18 pm #542831

Armhulen wrote:
deedubya wrote:Recently, mappers have been playing around with the mechanics of having the station itself exist on connected and interactive z-levels. MMM's work on donut has been a particularly notable example of this. But, in all this excitement to see if we can, nobody's stopped to ask if we should.

Is adding a third dimension in a game strictly bound to two dimensions really a good idea, from both a design and gameplay perspective? I fear that the potential complications that this change can bring about are entirely unnecessary, and don't necessarily bring any meaningful mechanical depth to the game. It feels like more of a "hey look at this neat trick we can do in the code" than something designed to enhance the player experience.


Here's your shit thread, where you have the gall to claim Mmmiracles has been making a multi z map since August of last year to show off. The complete nads on this guy to really say the numerous coders and mappers throughout the years (a lot of which fucked off, mind you) did it just for themselves, without even considering if it's an actual feature tg should have or the problems that come with it. The man who did not join the multi-z test server miracles threw up even for a second, and has otherwise not played a LICK of multi-z beyond winter ball believes that the """""potential complications""""" make it more of a hassle than it's worth.

tldr; deedubya is a fucking ungulate

Or, rather than implying that this is a personal attack on anyone, perhaps it's a thread posted to solicit feedback and discussion on a feature that could become incredibly game-breaking while also being entirely unnecessary to the core experience. Your implication that I have something against MMM is also baseless and untrue. If anything, I respect his dedication and the effort he's put forth into trying to improve a map that the majority of the playerbase wants nothing to do with.

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby CPTANT » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:59 pm #542834

I think it is a bad choice.

It makes orientation harder and less intuitive. You can't even represent the station in a flat image any more.
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby peoplearestrange » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:23 pm #542838

I think it can lead to problems, but it can also lead to some really interesting map designs and clever uses.
Imagine if all of maintenance was like actual vent/crawl spaces and were UNDER the station. You could do interesting stuff like removing floor to push people into maintenance, or get ladders to climb up INTO spaces etc etc

I think theres a lot of cool potential
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Qustinnus » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:36 pm #542843

multi-z has some design issues but nothing that can't be resolved and making a feedback thread without actually having a full multi-z map is useless as you're just all gonna end up arguing without anything to base your opinion off of and end up looking like Ungulates.

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby CPTANT » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:50 pm #542847

Qustinnus wrote:multi-z has some design issues but nothing that can't be resolved and making a feedback thread without actually having a full multi-z map is useless as you're just all gonna end up arguing without anything to base your opinion off of and end up looking like Ungulates.


Seriously this is so dumb. After the map is made everyone will just go "well it's already made".


>I think it can lead to problems, but it can also lead to some really interesting map designs and clever uses.
Imagine if all of maintenance was like actual vent/crawl spaces and were UNDER the station. You could do interesting stuff like removing floor to push people into maintenance, or get ladders to climb up INTO spaces etc etc

How is that different from removing a wall and doing the same?
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby MMMiracles » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:44 pm #542852

CPTANT wrote:
Qustinnus wrote:multi-z has some design issues but nothing that can't be resolved and making a feedback thread without actually having a full multi-z map is useless as you're just all gonna end up arguing without anything to base your opinion off of and end up looking like Ungulates.


Seriously this is so dumb. After the map is made everyone will just go "well it's already made".


Wrong, see: the 8 maps that were removed from rotation due to a mix of lack of maintenance and layout issues.
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Flatulent » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:23 pm #542861

no because it completely fucks with how combat and engagements work in this game
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Farquaar » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:26 pm #542864

Flatulent wrote:no because it completely fucks with how combat and engagements work in this game

Combat already needs an overhaul. Removing the stun/slip-based meta was a step in the right direction, but we’re a long way from escaping the zip-around in circles and click-until-horizontal system that we currently have.

But you still raise a good point. Future combat innovations should keep mutli-Z in mind.

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby confused rock » Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:30 pm #542870

multiz should be used when a map needs the extra space, it shouldn’t be “this map doesn’t have multiz, better fix it!” when the map wasn’t designed with multiz in mind and adding another layer just bloats the size of an already complete station. Multiz is interesting, but not necessarily to engage with- Eris and Lifeweb use multiz to make an environment claustrophobic and confusing while still being able to fit 60 players in a quarter the space of your average station. Those aren’t things we really need here.
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Cobby » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:01 pm #542880

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby eldomtom2 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:23 pm #542904

only acceptable if they have a cool multi-level bar

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby oranges » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:30 am #542919

we don't ask ourselves such questions.

We do because we can.

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby PKPenguin321 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:45 am #542922

oranges wrote:we don't ask ourselves such questions.

We do because we can.

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby PKPenguin321 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:56 am #542926

on-topic though, I really think this is the kind of thing we can only answer after playtesting. theorycrafting about how players will use mechanics in a game as open-ended as this is rarely effective.
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Anonmare » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:48 am #542936

Considering I think I'm one of the few players who actually regularly plays on servers with multi-z I think my opinion holds a bit of weight.

Yes, it is complicated the first few weeks as you adjust to thinking in three dimensions but you will adapt once you've explored the areas enough times. It gives you entirely new ways of approaching problems and causing/experiencing conflict in a way that's new and interesting. On Eris, for example, you can use the verticality and hollow walls around departments to set-up Excelsior workshops barely a few feet away from somebody else working in the department with them being none the wiser. Hell, the AI core can be quietly infiltrated by cutting your way through the atmospheric pipeline route on the top level and drop down into a hollow wall behind the AI Upload consoles and the AI in question wouldn't likely notice your presence.

I do agree that you can't merely adjust an existing map to be mutli-z, you have to design the station entirely with multi-z in mind or else you're going to have balance issues of assistants deconning a tile of floor, dropping down into armoury, stealing everything, making a table and climbing back out. But to be honest, Box and Meta could benefit from an overhaul if I'm being frank. The current maps don't even make use of piping and cable layers to their full potential and, with verticality, you can shrink the horizontal space a department takes up - meta always got shit for being too big, even adding one extra z-level would let you cut the space it uses up by half, and with less space being required by the essentials, mappers can be more creative in their layouts with the real estate freed up.
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Dr_bee » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:57 am #542938

I kind of look forward to department design using multiple z levels. Imagine medbay where the break room and storage room are upstairs from the rest of the department.

Slapping multi-z on the maps we have is a bad idea but if it is actually designed around it you can get some pretty compact but functional station designs.

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:05 am #542980

peoplearestrange wrote:I think it can lead to problems, but it can also lead to some really interesting map designs and clever uses.
Imagine if all of maintenance was like actual vent/crawl spaces and were UNDER the station. You could do interesting stuff like removing floor to push people into maintenance, or get ladders to climb up INTO spaces etc etc

I think theres a lot of cool potential

Baystation has this, I think it's the 3rd zlevel
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby cacogen » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:13 am #542994

can you look up

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Flatulent » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:31 pm #543040

cacogen wrote:can you look up

this is actually the most important thing you can add for multiz because without it you will just get continously griefed by people upstairs who throw chinese children at you from there
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:53 pm #543048

how do bee dynamics work on multi z tho, do they fall?

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Armhulen » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:54 pm #543049

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:how do bee dynamics work on multi z tho, do they fall?

flying mobs do not fall, if bees aren't flying mobs i'll be shocked
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Flatulent » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:57 pm #543085

Armhulen wrote:
Tlaltecuhtli wrote:how do bee dynamics work on multi z tho, do they fall?

flying mobs do not fall, if bees aren't flying mobs i'll be shocked

holy shit imagine if you get crushed to death by falling bees
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Screemonster » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:48 pm #543343

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:how do bee dynamics work on multi z tho, do they fall?

well, according to all known laws of aviation...

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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby bobbahbrown » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:07 pm #543350

Cobby wrote:if you map bees away from botany we can't be friends.


keep bees in space station
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby deedubya » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:42 pm #543395

CPTANT wrote:Imagine if all of maintenance was like actual vent/crawl spaces and were UNDER the station. You could do interesting stuff like removing floor to push people into maintenance, or get ladders to climb up INTO spaces etc etc

cacogen wrote:can you look up

These are the primary issues I have with it. It's absolutely not intuitive, and the perspective we play with clearly isn't meant to account for up or down. How will you even know there's something above or below you? "just learn the map lol" isn't intuitive at all, and doesn't account for things that you'd be able to see (exposed upper walkways for example) but can't because of limited perspective.
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Anonmare » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:34 pm #543418

cacogen wrote:can you look up

On most servers with mutli-z, you can unless there's a ceiling right above you.
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Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby CDranzer » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:00 pm #546043

I've thought about this before, but my biggest concern is repairs.
Let's say an explosion punches a hole in the station. Does it blow a hole in the ceiling? How do you repair that hole? Do you have to climb onto the roof to patch it? Is there some weird interface for building a ceiling from the floor below? How do you even convey a lack of ceiling in a top-down view? And What about gasses? Do they travel across Z levels? What's the extra performance cost on that?

Omni
 
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:34 pm
Byond Username: Omni44

Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Omni » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:27 pm #546108

OP could literally just go to one of few servers with multi Z level maps, which are all doing fine, and save good people of this forum a bit of time.
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Anuv
 
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:34 pm
Byond Username: Anuv

Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby Anuv » Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:39 am #546145

Vore has an amazing map, suggest everyone go play a round and run around
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"You mess with the best you die like the rest" - Janice "Foxy" Lean
Citadel Station Employee of the Year - Anuv Haifisch, Vulpakin Engineer

cacogen
 
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:27 am
Byond Username: Cacogen

Re: are multi-z stations actually a good thing?

Postby cacogen » Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:58 am #546172

well i would but y'know


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