Vekter - Muting OOC over the "N-Word"

[Hanador1]

I am not BobSquandarlo and as a side note I was gibbed for reading porn in the library as I rightfully should be. This is about the muting of ooc and a question concerning rule 1

Round ID: 131825

OOC: BobSquandarlo: 18 NAKED COWBOYS AT NIGGER CATTLE RANCH

The OOC channel has been globally disabled.

OOC: Vekter: If anyone has issue with me asking that you be decent fucking people there's a very simple way to voice that concern: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=23
OOC: Vekter: Otherwise I don't honestly care if I hurt your fee-fees by asking you not to use words that'd get the taste slapped out of your mouth IRL

OOC: Vekter: Also if anyone brings it IC I'm giving you an hour

Alright so I'm not exactly the most politically correct person racism doesn't phase me, that being said I would like to know how much "racism" is covered under server Rule 1 as far as I can tell nobody was directing the 'harassment' at anybody directly. Also the prior round somebody renamed some room to Nigger Cattle Ranch so that is probably where that is coming from.

[Vekter]

No rebuttal, that's what happened and I'd do it again, too. I also banned someone this round for making an announcement saying 'Attention everyone, fuck trannys, fuck jannys, and fuck niggers, enjoy your round'.

If you have a problem with me banning people on rule 1 for saying shit that actively upsets other players, then I don't know what to tell you.

[BigGrease]

literally just an easy bwoink that didn't have to be an issue but he wanted to let everyone know he was making a point by banning the guy who renamed a room "nigger ranch" or something stupid and repeatedly muting ooc because people were understandably making fun of him for this overreaction. threatened to ban people for an hour if they mentioned this issue in game and muted me as captain when i made a lighthearted reference to it in a station name he rejected, making my job impossible. can't speak, can't lead. got fireaxed in a hallway by an assistant. couldn't say shit. thankssssss

its really not that big of deal he just needs to chill and take things more lightly imo. i know that can be tough when you're offended but i just dont think that kind of punishment is appropriate or practical for /tg/station. good intentions, poor execution.

[Vekter]

I didn't ban him, nor did I mute you. I did smite you with brain damage, which might have caused that, and I apologize if it did.

You also told me that I had far too high expectations when I suggested that people on /tg/ not be racist.

[BigGrease]

You also told me that I had far too high expectations when I suggested that people on /tg/ not be racist.

Yeah, I mean, you claimed that you had been playing for 10 years, and yet you still expect people to be civil and tolerant on an anonymous platform? I think that's naiive for anyone who's been using the internet for so long, let alone someone who's been playing /tg/ for so long. I've been here for a year, and I know it's a 4chan derived server. I seriously doubt there was a time when this situation was different. Again, it's cool to not be racist, but to expect the /tg/ population, including shitters and trolls, to voluntarily stop using racial slurs and being generally prejudiced is, in my opinion, too high of an expectation. You would have to ban the use of slurs like beestation did to see results like that.

[oranges]

scrubby is too slow https://file.house/ASfn.txt

[deedubya]

I'll just leave these two previous rulings on the matter here, you be the judge.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 42#p454442

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 42#p508909

[bobbahbrown]

Link to experimental version of scrubby for this round on which logs load a bazillion times faster

[Vekter]

Alright, since this seems to have blown the hell up, a compromise - I won't ban anyone for saying slurs unless they're directed at a person or a group of people, as other admins have said there are precedents for that. For example, I did ban someone for saying they hated trannies and faggots in an announcement for an hour, as that actually constitutes harassment from what I've been told. Does that sound good?

[Qustinnus]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the precedent that has been said in past rulings has been against targeted harassment. As in, towards one individual. This would mean going after a single person who is for example transsexual and calling them trannie because you know they are transsexual because you are trying to get that person to react emotionally. I've never heard a rule about not allowing jokes/insults at groups of people (Again, assuming it's not to harass a specific individual).

Can you post a previous ruling that does include the insults at specific groups as a bannable offense?

[Vekter]

I'm not going off of a specific ruling, just what I've been told by other admins. This is still something we should probably have a definitive ruling on, whether or not untargeted harassment is included.

[BeeSting12]

I'm not going off of a specific ruling, just what I've been told by other admins. This is still something we should probably have a definitive ruling on, whether or not untargeted harassment is included.

We already have two fairly recent definite rulings:

We have no interest in censoring the right to expression of others.
Other servers that have rules that restrict IC bigotry may better suit your interest, but this will never happen on /tg/.

I'll borrow from Merriam Webster's second definition of harass:

"To create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct "

/tg/ has always been about free speech, allowing people to say whatever stupid slur their heart desires, and no one is really bent out of shape about that. The issue arises when slurs become targeted, specifically used with intent to hurt anothers feelings in a very personal way. If you are not part of a minority group yourself, it can be genuinely difficult to understand what it's like to be treated differently than other people just for existing as someone of another skin color, gender identity, or sexuality. We have never and will never allow people to harass others freely on the server. Insults are fine, strong language is fine, but when you go beyond surface level trash talking and venture into very personal territory with the intent of singling out specific people, that's when it becomes an issue.

If you spammed the N word in chat repeatedly, that's one thing. If you discovered one of our players was black, then specifically referred to them as the N word from that point onwards, that's another issue entirely. This thread has been made in response to one specific instance regarding another player that is not entirely resolved as of the time of typing. This is not about some strange trend people are noticing, this appears on a surface level to be people afraid of losing their ability to be genuinely hurtful to other human beings just because you don't have to see them face to face.

We are not policing language, we are not making changes to police language, we are not adding policy that enforces the policing of language. We are policing the community and those who are in it who only have an interest in making other peoples experiences lesser. This is a 2d spaceman game, we're here to have fun and make people go horizontal, not remind each other that the world is a shitty place to live in and our fellow humans have the capacity to make it worse.

If you yourself are being personally harassed, message me or another head admin on the forums or discord so we can talk about resolving it. Sometimes we aren't aware that something is going on, but as soon as we are we will act on it to the best of our ability.

Stay safe out there spessmen.

Hulkamania's ruling specifically references targetting harassment at a single person as a banworthy offense. Therefore, banning someone for making a captains announcement not aimed at a specific person is outside the scope of the policy. Please educate yourself on the rules before you use nonexistent ones to ban people.

[Fikou]

Therefore, banning someone for making a captains announcement not aimed at a specific person is outside the scope of the policy. Please educate yourself on the rules before you use nonexistent ones to ban people.

'Attention everyone, fuck trannys, fuck jannys, and fuck niggers, enjoy your round'. blatantly is very not ic which breaks rule 3, talking about rounds and jannies, and the ban is not the thing that's being complained about, it's the muting of ooc

[peoplearestrange]

Given the name of the hallway and the fact people were talking about this in OOC. Would this not be considered IC in OOC? and therefore muting OOC after a few people bring it up not a reasonable response to stop IC in OOC as would be any other situation?

Also another question to ask, Is muting OOC in someway infringing upon the rules or what we expect of admins?

[Fikou]

Given the name of the hallway and the fact people were talking about this in OOC. Would this not be considered IC in OOC? and therefore muting OOC after a few people bring it up not a reasonable response to stop IC in OOC as would be any other situation?

Also another question to ask, Is muting OOC in someway infringing upon the rules or what we expect of admins?

op mentioned that nigger cattle ranch was created in the round prior, so it is not ic in ooc

[peoplearestrange]

Fair enough, thank you for clarifying, I misunderstood.

[Vekter]

Basically what had happened was in one round, near the end, I mentioned in OOC that someone had named a hallway that, it was in poor taste, and that I fixed it back. I also had a word with the person who did so, they were pretty chill about the whole thing.

I'm taking this away as what I've learned from the situation:

1) Leave admin issues out of OOC
2) Be more lenient on the harassment thing unless it's targeting a specific player or group of players
3) Don't toggle OOC for the sake of ending an argument I'm involved in.

Does that sound about right?

[bandit]

Regardless of one's views on racial slurs, the more important point here is that there is not and, to my knowledge, never has been any ruling saying that an admin cannot mute OOC. Admins can mute OOC for whatever reason they want to. Making an admin complaint over muting OOC is beyond asinine.

[capn_monkeypaw]

Near as I can tell, this complaint concerns two separate issues: the muting of OOC and the manner in which Vekter responded to a number of outspoken players.

In regards to muting OOC, allow me to be very clear: admins are empowered to globally mute OOC at any time, for any reason, and for as long as they see fit. Access to OOC is not an inalienable right. If an admin feels as though OOC chat is detracting from the ongoing round they are free to toggle it off at their leisure.

In regards to Vekter's conduct: In the face of what appears to have been a tsunami of particularly obnoxious behavior, Vekter became frustrated and expressed that frustration in a less than ideal manner. In the time since, Vekter has shown themselves to be admirably open and willing to listen to both player and admin input regarding their actions during this round. We appreciate it and consider the matter closed.

This complaint is not being upheld.