New Sleeping Carp: Is it good or does it need help?

[NecromancerAnne]

I'm getting a lot of mixed messages about the state of sleeping carp after my rework, and I want to know what is working and what isn't. To make the martial art's intent is clear, I'll just reiterate what the intentions of the martial art are:

1. The martial art is meant to not have direct stuns of any kind, but that doesn't mean it can't have other disabling effects added in. Presently it has Crashing Wave Kicks wall stuns and launching them at long distances, Crashing Wave Kick on yourself for a stun into someone else, disarms in Keelhaul and that is largely it. Crashing Wave Kick was largely unintended to be used as a self propellant but since it's very funny and we already have baseball bats doing the same thing I want to keep it.

2. I had considered adding tackling but I want to wait to make sure that mechanic is the best it can be before adding that. It seems like a nice reintroduction to the loss of the grab and fits the themes of the martial art a lot. I feel like while the tackling is very RNG reliant, given this martial art is about being tougher than normal people, I might make sleeping carp users extremely resilient to the dangers of failed tackles and a little more reliable for them to succeed.

3. I wanted them to have some fun niche stuff like space walking. I believe it's largely working at the moment just fine.

4. I wanted heat to be a weakness, oxyloss as well. That appears to be the case.

Lemme know your thoughts and what could work to make the martial art the most fun it could be. I feel like some people didn't get a chance to do so before the PR was merged.

Some things people have already brought up to me have included:

1. It gets very silly with stacking defenses but batons still largely defeat it, as does bolas and bear traps. Seems fine to me.
2. It doesn't have a good means of disabling someone out the bat. I don't know how comfortable I am to adding instant disabling effects, but inserting a few slows here and there might be the solution, or people should look to fine those methods themselves. Shove is a slow, by the by. Even if it is some kind of disorientation effect.
3. It does not do well against groups. This is working as intended. You are not meant to be able to easily fight more than one opponent. Hence why the martial art cannot simultaneously keep up deflection and fight people, and the martial art having a two hit combo is meant to reward focusing on one opponent.
4. People miss aggrograbs. That's why I was considering tackling.

If you have any ideas or things you think could be done better lemme know. Or air your grievances.

[Fikou]

quoting oldman robustin's cult stun post

I balanced cult around the 2017-2018 meta. (...) You either stunned and muted, or you killed them so fast they couldn't yell, because if they did yell you would have every corner of that maint stuffed with flashbangs and tasers down 1-width halls before you could say "wow it sure feels like there was nothing I could to prevent this outcome".

the meta is still very much the same, sleeping carp neither has an instastun nor a mute, and the price was increased back to 17 tc again so you cant even buy a radio jammer, and the damage for attacks is 10/15/20(40 with a crit), which obviously isnt strong enough to prevent a ;help maint

[NecromancerAnne]

This was also something the original sleeping carp didn't prevent either, hence why I didn't think to add it in. It felt too much like that would step on CQC's toes. One of old sleeping carps biggest weaknesses is that while it killed people easily, it wouldn't stop them screaming for help. It couldn't usually kill fast enough.

You could buy an emp kit, and since sleeping carp isn't negatively affected by depressurized rooms, you pretty much just get free damage if you RNG a siphon in the room.

If the issue is 'I can't systematically kill the entire station without anyone being alerted', I'm sorry but that's not what I'm concerned about. I want to know if it works as a killing tool not a stealth boning tool.

[jackrip]

For 17tc I feel like carp should be self contained and not require you to have to carry bolas / stun weapons.

Right now you need to slow someone down to kill them with carp or they will just run away after the first hit. The problem with having to do that is that at that point you should just use a toolbox or buy an esword or use a plant or even a revolver to kill them and save 17tc. When you hit a person for the first time they will also immediately shout that you have carp since there is no mute effect and you can’t afford a radio jammer or sleepy pen. A head butt attack that disorients you was discussed and I think would be a great opener which I feel carp lacks right now.

Another issue with carp is that unless you get lucky if one person walks in with a gun and another a melee weapon you are basically dead. This is due to non active bullet reflection and a complete lack of group focused attacks. I think a spin kick like alien tail sweep or even active blocking would be a good compromise as right now carp is actually really easy to kill with two people. Which happens every time you get carp.

I would prefer to remove the damage resistance and focus that 17 tc on combat buffs as right now a dsword is much better for group and solo combat, it can slow enemies, and can kill before anyone has time to shout. Eg a head butt and roundhouse kick would help a lot, possibly experiment with active reflection too or even a chance to block melee attacks with a quick counter after block

[saprasam]

carp had its sv_cheats1 disabled so now it risks dying to literally everything easily because it has no damage resistance or moves that can stun quickly and efficiently
spears? owie
toolbox? owie
fireaxe? 5 hits and you're dead
sabre? super owie
mosin? GOOD LUCK LIVING
explosives: already dealt with carp users very effectively but now they're even more dangerous
harmbaton: both kills you easily and stops you easily
the lack of anything that can allow carp to easily stun means that you need to rely on other things inorder to live now, fireextinguishers, flashes, stunbatons
the new sleeping carp change was ok but now i feel as if it's just bad without the damage resistance due to the stunmeta, which was """"""allegedly""""""""" removed

[wesoda25]

Dude what are you on. Yeah it’s not amazing at melee anymore, thats the point (punches are still strong though). If you don’t want to be immune to ranged weapons, don’t buy it. Explosions fuck everyone up I don’t even get your complaints.

[saprasam]

Dude what are you on. Yeah it’s not amazing at melee anymore, thats the point (punches are still strong though). If you don’t want to be immune to ranged weapons, don’t buy it. Explosions fuck everyone up I don’t even get your complaints.

carp's damage resistance kept it from getting killed easily by everything, because it has no stuns that are easy to pull off and one glitches extremely often the damage resistance was needed so carp could keep the damage up without dying immediately, without damage resistance and a lack of good stuns carp gets bodied

[wesoda25]

Carp is a glass cannon. Resistances aren’t canon (ha). Now it’s more of a glass peashooter but price was reduced accordingly.

From what I can tell, your issue is that you haven’t adapted to new carp and are trying to use it the wrong way.

[saprasam]

Carp is a glass cannon. Resistances aren’t canon (ha). Now it’s more of a glass peashooter but price was reduced accordingly.

From what I can tell, your issue is that you haven’t adapted to new carp and are trying to use it the wrong way.

there is only one way to find out if carp is truly bad and i have a slight suspicion it sucks fat cock with the damage resistance removal

[NecromancerAnne]

Carp is a glass cannon. Resistances aren’t canon (ha). Now it’s more of a glass peashooter but price was reduced accordingly.

From what I can tell, your issue is that you haven’t adapted to new carp and are trying to use it the wrong way.

I wouldn't call a two tap spammable 40 stamina force kick with a knockdown and repeat disarm a peashooter. Keelhaul is a stun baton on steroids. It's just that the harm punches had it's once in a blue moon extra 20 damage removed, which honestly was the weakest part of the moveset and a weird move to be super fixated on given it was just so it could occasionally keep up with the damage output of keelhaul in lethal damage. It's still a massive glass cannon. You just need to surprise attack more, which is quite honestly where I was thinking of taking the martial art in the first place but got talked out of that too during the time I was floating drafts of the design to some people who felt invested enough in combat to give feedback. The biggest one was preventing it from being used a stealthbone martial art as best as possible.

All of the martial arts largest damage values are in nonlethal damage so as to grant it the largest amount of living time possible without GotNS, to make sure you could scream for help.

Frankly, I didn't have much in the way of interesting mechanics to attach to Gnashing Teeth. Wounds has some changes to bleed, so maybe that'll be a good start. Also, maybe add some animations like flips and spins, I really should have done that initially.

[saprasam]

tldr: stun spam

carp would be fine if these were able to be landed quickly and effectively but harm grab usually goes into a passive grab, leading to you not knockdowning, and the harm disarm only stunning on walls, making it useless in certain areas, and gnashing carp is kinda boring but it allowed carp to actually do large damage, without damage resistance it makes both of these even more risky then they already are.
add more fun moves to carp
this will loan me off

[NecromancerAnne]

I'm pretty sure Shaps would shoot me in the back of the head if I touched scarp at this point. Ask imsex, they loved it.

[saprasam]

current thoughts
carp without resistances is bad, and cannot do anything
it's gonna need another major rework as in it's current state it's extremely boring and a bland martial art
just fucking bring back old carp already, this sucks fat cock again and it has nothing interesting about it now