Quey the Comdom - A Civil Discussion

[Quey]

So we had the usual OOC argument after a round, but Psyentific didn't want to FNR and make a whole thing out of it. But it seems like there was fruitful discussion to be had, so let me lay out what happened.

Background: Midway through the round some people called the shuttle and I couldn't get a decent reason why (first time it appears AI called in response to Ty Andrews [145.9] asks, "When can we go home?") so I recalled. Next time Ty Andrews [145.9] says, "Yo AI call the shuttle" the HoS recalls it. We never found out why he asked for the shuttle to be called, and there was no outcry over radio either way. But as things went on and we had a rampaging mime on top of vines, hostile slimes, and someone releasing N2O in the brig, I asked the HoS to call the shuttle.

Part 1:
To prepare myself, I head to the bridge to check on the consoles. But Heather North runs in behind me onto the bridge, so I detain her.

Spoiler:

*---------*
This is Heather North!
She is wearing a cargo technician's jumpsuit.
She is wearing a poppy on her head.
She is wearing a cargo winter coat.
She has a satchel on her back.
She is holding some soap in her right hand.
She has some fingerless gloves on her hands.
She has a toolbelt about her waist.
She is wearing some jackboots on her feet.
She has Hipster Glasses covering her eyes.
She has a supply radio headset on her ears.
She is wearing PDA-Heather North (Cargo Technician).
She has minor bruising.
*---------*
You fire the energy gun!
Heather North is hit by an electrode in the chest!
Gregory Ewing is trying to put handcuffs on Heather North!
You shake Heather North trying to get her up!
Heather North [145.9] stammers, "C-Capt-t-tain-n is-s g-gon-nn-n-n-na r-rec-c-c-call-l"
Heather North stammers, "C-Capt-t-tain-n is-s g-gon-nn-n-n-na r-rec-c-c-call-l"
Heather North attempts to remove the handcuffs!
Heather North [145.9] stammers, "P-Pl-l-leas-s-s-se st-t-top-p h-he"
Heather North stammers, "P-Pl-l-leas-s-s-se st-t-top-p h-he"
Gregory Ewing tries to remove Heather North's supply radio headset.
Heather North [145.9] says, "HEADSET"
Heather North says, "HEADSET"
Gregory Ewing [145.9] says, "Bullshit"
Gregory Ewing says, "Bullshit"
Heather North attempts to remove the handcuffs!
Ty Andrews [145.9] says, "Nah yo he said to call it in the first place"

So she's yelling over radio that I'm going to recall, telling the crew to stop me, so I take off her headset, and in fact, Ty is nice enough to back me up. The last thing I needed was a crew mad at me for no good reason. Now here's where it gets interesting.

Spoiler:

Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "Captain."
The Witness [145.9] says, "I AM SORRY"
Gregory Ewing says, "Get otu"
Heather North says, "HELP"
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "Do not recall the shuttle"
Heather North attempts to remove the handcuffs!
Gregory Ewing says, "I'M NOT GOING TO"
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "The station is in danger from vines and slimes."
Ty Andrews [145.9] says, "He was all like "Alright you were about to blow up the station I guess I'll call it""
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "The kitchen is overrrun."
Heather North attempts to remove the handcuffs!
Gregory Ewing says, "GET OUT"
FUCKYEAR [145.9] states, "Ari Papas has signed up as Security Officer."
Gregory Ewing says, "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED HERE"
Heather North says, "HES GONNA RECAAAAAAALL"
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "Allow me to assist you with removal of trespassers."
Heather North says, "AND MAYBE KILL ME"

I tell everyone that I'm not out to recall, and this golem wearing a stolen ID walks through the first set of doors to the bridge and tells me not to recall. I tell him to get out, that I'm not recalling the shuttle, and to get out again. When I tell him he is not allowed there, he says "Allow me to assist you with removal of trespassers." and runs in to grab Heather. At this point I fire seven laser shots from my egun and curse. The golem retreats back between the two sets of doors. The golem tries to reason with me to get me to not recall the shuttle.

Spoiler:

Heather North exclaims, "Shoot him back golem!"
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "I only wanted to help."
The Witness [145.9] says, "Its all my fault"
Gregory Ewing says, "THIS IS THE BRIDGE"
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "Why do this."
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "Your chief engineer is dead."
OOC: AriPapas: OH GOD
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "You must not recall the shuttle."
Heather North exclaims, "He's charging his un to shoot you more!"
Gregory Ewing says, "THAT'S THE MIME"
Gregory Ewing says, "NOT THE CE"
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) shows his Benji LaFortune's ID Card (Chief Engineer): Benji LaFortune's ID Card (Chief Engineer): assignment: Chief Engineer
Gregory Ewing says, "AND WE ARE LEAVING"
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "A command ID, and the appropriate title."
Gregory Ewing says, "THE CE LEFT ON HIS OWN"
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "This is the Chief Engineer's ID"
Heather North attempts to remove the handcuffs!
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "He is dead."
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "He burned to death in the vines."
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "Please do not"
Heather North attempts to remove the handcuffs!
Gregory Ewing says, "HE WENT BRAINDEAD A WHILE AGO"
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "I only wish to assist you."
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "He is not. He is currently cloning."
Heather North attempts to remove the handcuffs!
Gregory Ewing says, "Drop the CE ID and go"
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "Please calm down. You are under great stress"
Gregory Ewing says, "You are tresspassing"
Heather North says, "I've been shot."
*---------*
This is Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton)!
He is wearing a sturdy top-hat on his head.
He is wearing an adamantine shell.
He has The Service Golem Special on his back.
He is holding Benji LaFortune's ID Card (Chief Engineer) in his left hand.
He is holding a fire extinguisher in his right hand.
He has PDA-Benji LaFortune (Chief Engineer) about his waist.
He has a golem's face on his face.
He has a service radio headset on his ears.
He is wearing PDA-Fig Newton (Chef).
He has severe burns!
*---------*
OOC: AriPapas: is no one on right now?
Heather North says, "Like hurty type laser shot."
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "You are under great stress. I fear for the female's life."
OOC: WeeYakk: Type who to find out
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "You have already hurt me greatly with no provocation."
Adamantine Golem (699) (as Fig Newton) says, "I merely wish to help."
Gregory Ewing says, "She should not have tresspassed either"

Heather's trying to egg him on to shoot me with the barshotty. I've been pulling her this entire time. Admittedly, there was some confusion about the CE. See, he was afk for a while early on in the round, and he told me over PDA that he was busy masturbating, and that he was going to be unresponsive and masturbating again. Later on the mime was on a rampage using the CE's gear, presumably after the CE died to vines. Sorta beside the point. Anywho, I ask the golem to leave the CE ID and go, and remind him that he is tresspassing, as well as Heather. I wait a good long while, the golem is talking about me being under stress and fearing for Heather's life, but after a while dialog breaks down and I unload the recharged gun into him.

So that's where the main event ends. I have some times chasing around multiple handcuffed prisoners after the murder of the HoS, and for some reason the crew releases them. I don't know exactly why. But anyway, the above Part 1 is supposed to be a factual account of what happened. If any of the above is incorrect, please note that.

Part 2:
Now, let's get into the MOTIVATIONS we have here. In OOC after the round it was claimed that I was just out to kill as a trigger happy fool. That was far from true. Earlier in the round, I put a confirmed traitor caught in the act with emag and esword on chem implant parole. Another was put into perma, even with the only sec officer telling me to kill her. If I was truly out for valid kills, then I would have killed them. These are a couple examples, but in general I'm not out to kill people. I was also told I opened with lasers. Not so, I started with words, and I only fired when I felt threatened. You can't dispute that. I DID feel threatened. Before I'm even able to question a prisoner, she's trying to start a mutiny, when an armed golem runs in explicitly to take the prisoner after being repeatedly told to leave. I can't see why it'd be okay for anyone to try to take a prisoner who has actually broken the law from (de facto) security without it being seen as an affront to said security force. I can imagine the golem thought it was trying to protect her, but from the captain's point of view the golem is disobeying orders to stop breaking space law then charging further into a high security area directly towards him.
Anywho. It was also said I escalated too quickly. Honestly, I don't have the timestamps, and I wish I had them, but I was there for a long time for what I saw as no good reason. A lawbreaker was refusing to stop, and he was hiding behind glass. If at any of the times the golem was told to leave he left, it would have ended then and there.

So if you have any problems with my factual account, please post 'em below. If you were involved and want to tell me where you think I went wrong, give me a shout. I was asked to cite space law, and I shall. If you want to state how I was displaying insanity, "You'd already been shown to be irrational and not thinking clearly. I feared for her safety." by using later events to justify earlier evaluations in some sort of time warp, just no. Try to be clear, specific and civil. This isn't in FNR, but that doesn't mean the gates are open to all shitposters. Please? If you think I have been unfair, please know that I am not trying to belittle anyone's opinion, just trying to explain through a complicated tangle of rough (and mostly false) accusations.

[Psyentific]

You fired lethal lasers at a calm, unresisting, non-hostile target, then recharged your E-Gun and finished it off - Into crit, then dead. You executed someone for trespassing on the bridge, and justify it by saying you warned them first.
You escalated straight from warnings to lethal, despite a complete lack of escalation on the other side, despite having non-lethal means available.

No matter how you slice that pie, that is not okay. Generally, words are the first step, disarms or non-lethals are the next, and lethals are the final step and are much more serious than any of the others. Captain and Security are jobs which are expected to resort to non-lethal means first and lethal means only when absolutely needed, not because they feel threatened by an unarmed person. That's paper-thin justification, and you know it.

[Quey]

You fired lethal lasers at a calm, unresisting, non-hostile target, then recharged your E-Gun and finished it off - Into crit, then dead.

Let's look at it another way. I fired lasers at a calm, disobedient, major trespassing target being egged on by a possibly mutinous crew member. I had two shots left, but since you retreated behind the doors, I decided to recharge my egun. The target kept up the flagrant disregard for the captain's orders and space law, was wasting time, and would not remove himself as a threat, and was fired on through the glass. At that point I wasn't willing to risk myself or the prisoner to an armed golem who had shown himself quite willing to run in without invitation and refused to leave after words and lasers made it quite clear he wasn't welcome.

You executed someone for trespassing on the bridge, and justify it by saying you warned them first.

A massive oversimplification. Not only trespassing, but interfering with an arrest, looks like he's friendly with a mutinous crewmember, keeps blabbing on about not recalling the shuttle after I say I'm not recalling it and someone else backs me up over radio, and won't take "GET OUT" "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED HERE" laser laser laser to mean LEAVE FUCKING NOW. Obviously keeping up the confrontation after that meant that this someone wasn't getting the message, either of them, really. Obviously this creature is not listening to reason and is going to do anything to stop me from whatever I'm doing. Best remove the threat in a controlled manner rather than open the door and yakety sax around with stuns and a prisoner in tow whilst being shot with beanbags. That's the thinking, anyway, but you're sure to have fun twisting that around.

You escalated straight from warnings to lethal, despite a complete lack of escalation on the other side, despite having non-lethal means available.

Lack of escalation from the other side. Other side initiates the confrontation. Other side is committing a major crime. Other side claims to want the shuttle to not be recalled, but persists when told multiple times that the shuttle is not going to be recalled. Other side runs onto the bridge to steal a prisoner (aiding an' abettin' a criminal, anyone?). If it had been the HoS, or any sec, hell, maybe even a different head of staff running in, y'know, someone who, first, is allowed on the bridge, and second, would be reasonable to trust with an unsearched detainee for question, that would have been fine. But a golem isn't even an assistant, and isn't even on the station hierarchy. What gives you the idea that it's okay to do that? WHAT? Further, saying you're going to do it doesn't make it any better. Even if the golem WAS an assistant it would have had the same result: some chucklefuck trying to grab a handcuffed person he has absolutely no right to even be near.

Generally, words are the first step, disarms or non-lethals are the next, and lethals are the final step and are much more serious than any of the others.

Words were the first step. And GENERALLY, yes, non-lethals are the next step. And beyond blah blah space law is just a guideline, the law specifies many example scenarios when lethal force is permissible. Specifically, I cite Severe Personal Risk, an Armed and Dangerous criminal, Multiple Hostiles, and possible mutiny.

Captain and Security are jobs which are expected to resort to non-lethal means first and lethal means only when absolutely needed, not because they feel threatened by an unarmed person.

See above, and during this entire conversation not only do you have a shotgun, but you're a GOLEM. That means that not only are you not a person, you're tough. I felt threatened by an armed and armored creature who is not loyalty bound to me or the station, and has made that perfectly clear.

That's paper-thin justification, and you know it.

We couldn't keep it civil. I knew it. You were so nice at the end of the OOC discussion, but you had to go on either straw manning or maybe this is just a jerk move telling me what I know and think. Yes, I know what a straw man is. You set up the straw man that you were unarmed, which is certainly not true, so you could knock it down by saying I should know better than to kill an unarmed "person". Well guess what? The straw man is over there, I'm over here. Talk to ME, not him.

[Psyentific]

So much for civil discussion.

You fired lethal lasers at a calm, unresisting, non-hostile target, then recharged your E-Gun and finished it off - Into crit, then dead. You executed someone for trespassing on the bridge, and justify it by saying you warned them first.
You escalated straight from warnings to lethal, despite a complete lack of escalation on the other side, despite having non-lethal means available.

No matter how you slice that pie, that is not okay.

[Hornygranny]

http://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Letha ... Executions

Note that the section is titled Command/Security Policy. This supercedes space law 100% of the time.

[Quey]

You fired lethal lasers at a calm, unresisting, non-hostile target, then recharged your E-Gun and finished it off - Into crit, then dead. You executed someone for trespassing on the bridge, and justify it by saying you warned them first.
You escalated straight from warnings to lethal, despite a complete lack of escalation on the other side, despite having non-lethal means available.

No matter how you slice that pie, that is not okay.

I already disputed that you were "unresisting" and "non-hostile", and that you did much more than trespass. Continuing to repeat this without even acknowledging my rebuttal is straw manning at the least, outright trolling at the worst.

Thanks for the rules link, HG. Psy, have a look at it. By interfering with the arrest for minutes and flouting both the law and command structure, you proved to be a threat to the smooth evacuation of the station, my office, and myself. Because of you two fucking around on the bridge, the HoS died.

[miggles]

Because of you two fucking around on the bridge, the HoS died.

Read this.
He clearly said MULTIPLE times that he wasn't going to recall and told you to leave. Heather was arrested for trespassing. That is a valid reason to arrest someone, so you didn't have to worry about her. You were also trespassing. I don't know if execution was the right answer, but to be fair, he did warn you MULTIPLE times, including several shots with a laser that clearly indicated his intent to kill you if you disobeyed him. It was your fault for not listening and staying there for no good reason that you died. It's not like it came as a surprise that he would kill you after shooting an egun at you til it emptied. The fact that he didn't kill you the first time is a testament to his attempt to avoid unnecessary deaths, but you persisted, and died for it.
Listening to people is the most important thing. And no, not the angry, mutinous, trespassing CT. The captain. Who told you he was not recalling, which you ignored.

[Vekter]

Do try your best to keep this civil. Don't let it devolve into ad hominem bullshit and crying.

Thank you.

E: I didn't mean stop talking, just keep things civil.

[callanrockslol]

Anyone that needs to write such a long explanation of their actions is probably in the wrong, not counting the first section, a simple "I shot him to death because he disagreed with me and I didn't like where he was standing" would have sufficed, this may not be bannable but any captain that executes someone for having some dead guys access and being on the bridge is pretty shitty.

Eguns can tase you know, you could also just recall and smash up the console, or just let them call the shuttle even.

[Brotemis]

Captain was in the right to laser. Thats pretty much it.

[Malkevin]

If the Captain tells you to get the fuck off the bridge you get the fuck off the bridge, if he tells you with lasers you gtfo quick sharpish.

[paprika]

http://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Letha ... Executions