when it's okay to do roundstart-disallowed things

[remanseptim]

MRP players go away, this is about LRP

so i took a 30 day assistant ban + 3 day ban earlier this year for habitually tiding into the cap's office at roundstart. it usually resulted in me dying, but that's besides the point. also besides the point is my feeling on the note itself, it's in the past and not worth going to FNR court over or whatever.

my question, and something i'd like to see settled, is when does the 'do not do this thing at roundstart' timer expire? when is it okay by rules to tide into captain's office, force your way into armory, etc.

some would just point to the ever vague rule 1, but rule 1 actually has two precedents that are relevant to this topic:

Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security.

Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Admins may follow up on grief with allowing the affected parties to ignore normal escalation policy or measures such as warnings or bans.

does tiding into cap's office at round start fall under the latter and the former? or just the former? what about tiding into it, say, 45 minutes into the round once everything is underway and the station's half fallen apart? is getting murdered in-game meant to coincide with consequences from jannies?

tl;dr: when does it stop being 'roundstart'?

[Ayy Lemoh]

tl;dr: when does it stop being 'roundstart'?

If the shuttle can be called then it definitely isn't roundstart.

[Armhulen]

Roundstart disallowance only really exists when you do it so often people are telling you to stop doing it so often though, this is way too much of an edge case to define

[NecromancerAnne]

Imagine going into a policy thread instead of FNR because you then get to try to leave out the relevant elements of your ban where your habitual AA thefts lead to you raiding the armory, distributing AA and weapons to the crew and attack security as a nonantag. Rendering the stations security helpless because you have the entire armory in your bag as an assistant on regular basis is grade A self antag and the very least a big Rule 1. I don't believe I remember you even being much of a validhunter so it was entirely for selfish reasons to bait people into fighting.

This is what got you banned, you moron. You can't help yourself, and what you do is basically grief when it is quite literally all you do and causes massive issues every time you end up in a round. I gave you the assistant ban so you'd pull your head in, but I guess you're too much of a dense cunt to work it out.

Basically, don't do what you do constantly and nothing bad will happen. Plenty of people before you have wound up in the same hot water you did, for much the same reasons, and some of those guys cleaned up their act and some of them got banned for a long time. Quite simply, the primary reason it is an issue is because it forces behaviours across rounds to account for your repeat behaviour, and ending up making yourself valid constantly is breaking rule 1. Plain and simple.

What your doing isn't promoting a controlled chaos that you think you are. You are using the assistant role to play as an antagonist would, sending people on man hunts as you empower antagonists both directly and indirectly by nullifying their opposition and opening the gate. That's not your place in the game. There is a fine line to walk as a tider and you basically never walked it.

And this does include Bagil and Terry. I don't know why people want those servers to be complete lawless zones but I imagine it's those pining for Hippie 2.0. We have a role for this kind of thing, just wait for it.

[remanseptim]

this isn't addressing a particular incident; the mentioning of my ban was just for transparency's sake, so people know I'm not simply asking out of the blue. I probably could've worded it better, but I'm not gonna edit the op post too much as it adequately states the topic of the thread.
I suppose you could say it is spurred on by interactions I've had with admins though, primarily, admins with different stances. some I've met have a more lax stance, and others a stricter stance.
I just want to know if there's an actual, objective consensus out there. what one admin thinks is the norm could vary from what another admin thinks.

edited/redid post cuz my original didn't contribute much besides salt

[Tlaltecuhtli]

if none of the heads are going for it then its free game

[Flatulent]

this isn’t grief this is sharing station wealth under teachings of karl marx

[Stickymayhem]

As someone who also habitually rushed the spare every single round back in the day, I think I can speak on this a bit.

I'm not saying this is why the policy exists, but rushing the spare roundstart is kind of like antag rolling, if you lose you die and sit out and observe or ghost role, if you win then you've basically self antagged or heavily powergamed.

Now that I play a lot of captain and security, I can see the issue. If the AA gets loose the round is kind of over. Your brig is full of people powergaming and if you stop them the brig probably gets smashed, the captain becomes totally superfluous and his link to centcom and announcements is overrun with garbage assistants putting memes through the console. It kinda sucks for those roles. People also have an insane entitlement to all access where if you take it away, they'll basically escalate to the death with you no matter who you are. So by spare rushing, you're kind of rolling the dice on whether you ruin the round for a bunch of players on a regular basis.

So it's a bit less about the roundstart component and more about how many rounds you wrecked or attempted to wreck. If the game didn't need access restrictions to function well, we wouldn't have them.

Rushing the spare is fine, but when you do it constantly there's a wider impact on the quality of rounds and if it happened every round like it used to, the game would be the worse for it. I'm not saying you can't do it once in a while on the LOW ROLEPLAYING servers but if it becomes habitual it becomes a problem

[Gigapuddi420]

Question: when it's okay to do roundstart-disallowed things??????

Answer: when you don't run that shit into the ground.

These things aren't outright banned because sometimes borderline grief provides a interesting conflict that drives the rest of the round. However a disruptive gimmick done once might be fun for all, but when it's done constantly it quickly tires and starts to look like outright grief. There is no exact line, the line is when people get sick of it.

[Sheodir]

Instead of a ban we should instead just force people to play Sec when they do this enough. You'll understand quickly.

[BeeSting12]

Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Admins may follow up on grief with allowing the affected parties to ignore normal escalation policy or measures such as warnings or bans.

Breaking into the captain's office roundstart repeatedly (see: repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief) is of course bannable. If you have to ask if you're doing it too frequently, you're doing it too frequently. OOC consequences are meant to coincide with IC consequences. We don't decide to not ban people just because they got killed for their shittery IC.

I'd also like to echo what sticky and necromanceranne said, ignoring rules related issues. You're having a negative impact on the game by wasting the opposition to antag's resources on trying to hunt you down/track down the all access whilst making the antag's jobs easier by giving them free access. It makes at least six roles (security, HoP, captain) pointless or unfun. One player shouldn't be allowed to do that when they haven't won the grief lottery, they should have to wait their turn like everyone else.

Basically, this rule:

For experienced users only. Don't quote these at admins. If you're in a position where you need to defend yourself using this, you've done something wrong. This is about the personal freedom and responsibility an experienced player will have when they have the interests of others first.

This is a game that allows a lot of potential for great things to happen, and naturally the rules restrict a lot of that to ensure the minority don't ruin every round for everyone else. If you push the limits in the pursuit of something interesting for reasons other than your own personal entertainment, breaking the rules may be excused to allow for that freedom. This will always be at the admin's discretion of course, but if you want a large amount of freedom to make great things happen, you'll have to take on the responsibility for them. You won't be faulted if they go wrong in ways beyond your control, but this is a difficult line to tread so use it well. It's almost always better to consult an admin on this as they are more equipped to taking on that responsibility.

Everyone has a license to grief to a very limited extent. You can likely get away with borderline antagonistic behaviour (Never random murder, but stealing from the brig and triggering a manhunt, for example) occasionally, but it's when this becomes a frequent occurrence that people get frustrated and admins start to get involved.

Admins may handwave even severely antagonistic or rulebreaking behaviour if they believe it was ultimately beneficial, hilarious or awesome to the round. (F R E E D R O N E)

Stealing the spare and breaking into the captain's office/armory all the time does not have the interests of other players first. It tends to frustrate people and make the game less fun for the sake of your own enjoyment.

[imsxz]

hes asking how long into the round something counts as roundstart you trogs you are all thinking about this way too much and not actually reading what he said at all it's literally nothing to do with specifically tiding captains office or tiding in general.

[Stickymayhem]

And we answered by saying it's not about that, it's about consistently ruining rounds.

They're taking one word out of his ban reason and trying to nail it down to an exact timer, presumably so they can do what they want after that timer.

There is no timer. Don't be a shitter every round. Roundstart is not a defined phase of the game, it's descriptive of what you were doing and carries some other implications (e.g. if you're repeatedly wasting yourself trying to self-antag every time yu don't get antag, it's basically antag rolling except far more disruptive)

[Vekter]

This thread does actually suck tho

We don't put a static rule on shit like this because it results in people toeing the line constantly like "WELL I DIDN'T DO EXACTLY THAT" etc. The answer to "Can I rush the captain's quarters and steal the captain's ID for AA" is "Yeah probably but if you die/get caught you get no admin sympathy and also if you do it too much you'll get banned for it".

Preferably? Don't fucking do it. It's annoying and ruins rounds for no reason.

[Coconutwarrior97]

Sometimes its better to be more vague with certain rules as it helps avoid people trying to toe the line. In this case we aren't going to put a solid time about what is/isn't roundstart.
Tiding roundstart into the cap's office usually becomes an issue when it occurs repeatedly across multiple rounds.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes.
Domitius: Yes.
Naloac: Yes.