ArcaneMusic Adam Klein - Fair ban Unfair punishment

[The Wrench]

Byond name: Adam Klein

Character name: Jim Barret

Ban type: General Heads of staff ban

Ban length: One month

Ban reason: Banned from Roles: Captain, Head of Personnel, Head of Security, Chief Engineer, Research Director, Chief Medical Officer for 1 month - Seems to consistently over-escalate situations as a head of staff, even when the situation is already solved. I want you to really study up on how escalation works, it doesn't mean you can't defend yourself, it means you need to defend yourself in-kind to the threat at hand.

Time ban was placed: 2020-09-12 00:23:44
The server you were playing on when banned: Bagil

Your side of the story: Well, the shift started as any other shift as the CMO starts. I was doing my job, collecting tools for a medical belt and I found someone, I'm sorry can't remember the name for the life of me, Going through my stuff in my office. Being that the CMO is often a target due to being the least defended head of staff round start, Naturally, I was scared. Also, bagil is notorious for having a greytide problem. So, I ask the person what the hell they are doing in my office. I get no response and they continue digging through my stuff. This is the part that I imagine the administrator took issue with, but I then proceeded to flash the intruder and put them in a soft crit in order to prevent the possibility of a retaliation attack. My team and I then brought the intruder back to full health, being that we are doctors after all. This started a blood feud between myself and this other person that would last untill the end of the round.

Why you think you should be unbanned: Well, I'm not arguing for a total unban, because I can see why this could be considered over-escalation, but on that same hand, with the exception of a note in may "Which was not as a head roll, mind you" I have shown no consistent over escalation as to support a ban of this lenght. Bringing this to head, I motion to have either the ban revoked for the heads of staff that were not played this shift, or a reduction in the amount of time of the total ban.

[Arcanemusic]

First off, thank you appealing.

As a head of staff, you have a higher expectation of understanding both in-game mechanics as well as server behavior. There's a reason that the HOS is expected to not execute every assistant who breaks into the brig, or that the CE can't toss every loiterer into the SM for asking for insulated gloves. While you're given more leway over what control you have over the round, you're expected to temper that situation with an understanding of escalation.

For reference, here is the round in question on statbus: https://sb.atlantaned.space/rounds/146121
Here's the full story of what happened, as I witnessed and understood it while admining that round:
Quickly going into the start of that shift, you had a botanist who broke into chemistry, and stole a chemical dispenser. As far as petty griefing/tiding goes, this is pretty common on bagil, and you commented "Fucking botanists", then asked for your doctors to delimb the botanists if they showed up in medbay, THEN announced the following to the station:

Code: Select all

SAY: Adam Klein/(Jim Barrett) (station announcement from the �Chief Medical Officer's Desk requests console) "I declare open season on all botanists, Bring me their heads." (Chief Medical Officer's Office (93,97,2))

As a result of this situation, both botanists were removed from the round and the botany department was bombed several times over, which you specifically gave the chemist the blessing to bomb their department. Ordinarily, that'd fall on the chemist in question here, but you were explicitly asked and gave the order to your department to behead all of them.
Ya know you can make more chemical dispensers, right? It's a tier 1 techweb node under biological technology, which as a head of staff, you can easily take without disturbing the flow of the round. I can understand going out of your way to get it back instead of making a new one, mind you, it's practically tradition. But you instead carpet bombed and removed 2 people from the round for petty theft, effectively. You also made a point to tell your doctors to not revive the botanists afterwards, and suggested removing their organs to further remove them from the round out of spite.

And that's before the issue that I was actually brought attention to, but I feel like this is perfectly emblematic of the type of behavior that makes the game far less enjoyable for everyone.

Onto the issue that was brought to my attention: After the issue in botany, you returned to your office to see someone inside, asked what they were doing, flashed them, and then beat them into soft-crit before throwing them out of your office. The moment you had them flashed and had the baton out, you could have resolved the issue completely, but beating someone near to death when you won the fight in the first second is why we have escalation policy. There are exceptions, such as the captain being able to protect his office from break-ins at the start of the shift, but that's more to protect the quality of the round and keep habitual troublemakers from causing problems with a round from moment zero. Now, the other aspect of this issue is that the person in question was given a job-change to also be the CMO earlier in the shift. By all accounts, someone getting a job change and walking into their department isn't grounds for round removal.

Lets just propose a different way you could have handed this situation: You see there's a plainclothes player that has broken into your office, you rush into your office, flash them, and then ask them "what the fuck are you doing?", as you did. Now, they're stunned, you have control over the situation, and if they're actually breaking into your office to steal something, you would be given leniency, as you know that it's a tider. If they tried to attack you before you stunned them, that's also covered by escalation. The only situation where beating someone to hardcrit without a single piece of retaliation prior is as a traitor, pretty much. Which is exactly what you did.

I see this as a blatant misunderstanding of how escalation works, and on top of that, you used your control over your department to escalate multiple situations far beyond just simple retaliation.

If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)

You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence.

If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed.

I'd like to hear another admin's take on this situation as well.

[The Wrench]

Wow, thank you for responding so quickly on this matter. I just read the responce due to me just now getting off work. In relation to the botanists, They were attacking doctors and chemists. Why should I force my doctors to heal those who were active aggressors against them? I will admit though, Calling open season on them isn't the best option and in the future i'll tell the chemists to leave the gunpowder for something a touch less lethal. On the note of the Chem dispencers being easy to replace, couldn't that same argument be made for the guns in the armory? If timmy greyshit steals all the laser guns, just get cargo to order more. See, I just don't see how that's a good argument. This may be a controversial opinion, but it shouldn't matter what the goods a group are trying to steal, If you break into my medbay while my people are working with the assumption of safety, we should have the right to defend ourselves.
now on to the matter at hand,

and that's before the issue that I was actually brought attention to, but I feel like this is perfectly emblematic of the type of behavior that makes the game far less enjoyable for everyone.

Onto the issue that was brought to my attention: After the issue in botany, you returned to your office to see someone inside, asked what they were doing, flashed them, and then beat them into soft-crit before throwing them out of your office. The moment you had them flashed and had the baton out, you could have resolved the issue completely, but beating someone near to death when you won the fight in the first second is why we have escalation policy....

"If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you."

I did follow escalation policy, as stated before, I made sure the other fellow was brought back to full health. That's much more than what most trespassers get. You have to put yourself in my shoes, It only takes one second of being out of stun to sleepypen/ flash someone. So putting the person in soft crit was the safe option. I didn't kill anyone, nor did this action lead to the death of the intruder.

[The Wrench]

Another thing

You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence.

If anything, this is the only rule that I broke. Even then, the ancient bagilite scripture comes to mind "Act like an antag, get treated like an antag." if an entire, and I mean ENTIRE, department of people start breaking windows and attacking doctors. Why are we not justified to remove them from the round? Why should the doctor team be forced to revive potential antagonists? I can see why this may not be allowed on Manuel, and rightfully so. But on Bagil, this is common practice. Validhunting is allowed, and as far as my team was concerned, Breaking, entering, and attacking makes you valid.

[Arcanemusic]

I did follow escalation policy, as stated before, I made sure the other fellow was brought back to full health. That's much more than what most trespassers get. You have to put yourself in my shoes, It only takes one second of being out of stun to sleepypen/ flash someone. So putting the person in soft crit was the safe option. I didn't kill anyone, nor did this action lead to the death of the intruder.

You were the instigator of the conflict, and the sole aggressor of the conflict. There was no retaliation of any kind, and you were control of the situation from moment zero. Which would have been fine, if you had an actual reason to resort to lethals. As a head of staff, you have a baton and a flash, which combined act as some of the strongest non-lethal weapons on the station, and outside of this person being inside your office, changing clothes into a CMO labcoat, there was no IC information for you to go on to assume they were doing anything more malicious than breaking into your office.

On the note of the Chem dispencers being easy to replace, couldn't that same argument be made for the guns in the armory? If timmy greyshit steals all the laser guns, just get cargo to order more. See, I just don't see how that's a good argument.

If someone steals all the guns in the armory that's an openly antagonistic action, as stealing guns from security is not something a non-antagonist should be doing, and yes, that is a situation where lethal reciprocal force is perfectly acceptable. You can build a new chem dispenser in 2 minutes flat between getting the technode, printing the board, and securing the parts from a vending machine/other unused machines. Yes, it's fine to try and escalate having stolen from you. Yes, you could get in a fight trying to steal the machine back. No, you should not start a crusade against those players for trying to steal something of yours. Round removal is something that should be done sparingly, and as a non-antag, if you can reasonably assume the other person was not a true antagonist in their actions during/after a conflict, the impetus falls on you to at least give a chance to return to the round. If you escalate a situation where the other person dies/is crit and you determine they're an antagonist? That burden no longer falls on you, as you have IC knowledge that they're most like an antagonist, so no, you don't have to revive them. These are all basic, common examples of escalation, non-specific specific to MRP, hell, I don't even play outside of Bagil myself.

if an entire, and I mean ENTIRE, department of people start breaking windows and attacking doctors. Why are we not justified to remove them from the round? Why should the doctor team be forced to revive potential antagonists? I can see why this may not be allowed on Manuel, and rightfully so. But on Bagil, this is common practice. Validhunting is allowed, and as far as my team was concerned, Breaking, entering, and attacking makes you valid.

You're not forced to revive antagonists. You're forced to react in KIND to the type of actions that happen to you, and even at a basic, low level, treat it like you would if it happened to you. If someone walked up to you and shoved you out of the way walking down the street, you don't pull out a .357 revolver and put 6 rounds in their brain like Eric Andre. You call them an asshole or punch them in the face. If they pull out a knife, you could pull out the gun. It's an arms race of reactions, and if you start every fight with the nuclear option, you are over-escalating.

You have a note from earlier this year about over escalation. I watched you over-escalate 2 situations far further than they needed to go, and I think you could just use to take a step back from this. This is a command ban, not a regular ban, and it's only for a few weeks. Being able to handle escalation of a situation in-round well is something that a lot of players suck at, and it's the sort of thing I don't hesitate to ahelp people for when I see it happening.

[iloveusername]

Hey, I'm the chemist from the bombing botany situation. I believe it wasn't over escalation, the botanists bum rushed Chemistry round start and started bashing my windows with Oxygen tanks, most likely organized through metacomms. A doctor walked into chem, opening the door, and in came the botanists. They shoved over the doctor and I, kept us down and beat us as they wrenched the chem dispenser and took off with it. Theft (3xx), Breaking and Entry (2xx), Assault (2xx), Trespass (1xx). I too believe in the whole "Act like an antag, get treated like an antag" saying. "YOU SEE THAT ITEM YOU WANT IN A ROOM THAT YOUR JOB HAS NO NEED FOR AND YOU HAVE NO LOGICAL REASON TO CARRY ON YOUR PERSON AT ALL TIMES? DON'T BREAK IN AND GRAB IT AND GET IN A FIGHT WITH ITS RIGHTFUL OWNER." - Guide To Evade Getting Banned found on the Wiki. Do they need my chem dispensor? No, they don't. As a chemist, it's up to Botany to come to us and ask for the chemicals they need. Instead, they attempted to break in, destroyed my windows, assaulted me and a fellow medical person, took my shit, ran. "You can build a new chem dispenser in 2 minutes flat between getting the technode, printing the board, and securing the parts from a vending machine/other unused machines." They should have asked for one, then. That's on them.

[The Wrench]

You were the instigator of the conflict, and the sole aggressor of the conflict. There was no retaliation of any kind, and you were control of the situation from moment zero. Which would have been fine, if you had an actual reason to resort to lethals. As a head of staff, you have a baton and a flash, which combined act as some of the strongest non-lethal weapons on the station, and outside of this person being inside your office, changing clothes into a CMO labcoat, there was no IC information for you to go on to assume they were doing anything more malicious than breaking into your office.

ArcaneMusic, You are missing the point. I didn't kill them, I brought them to a point where they are no longer a threat, removed them from my office, and healed them back to full health, EXACTLY as said in the rules.

Following that, the brilliant minds in a discord I was discussing the case in brought up this point "OK so like "Why didn't you let botany burglarize you, you could have spent the 20 minutes making a new one!" like what"
While I would have said that in a much more elegant manor, the point still stands.

Why should botany not get blown up if they bum rush and attack doctors for doing their jobs? Why does medbay have to resort to being the bitch to botany because they decided to use force first. Does this mean that it would be okay for doctors to greytide into robotics for the surgeries research and advanced tools?

In other matters, do you really think that anyone listens to the CMO on LRP servers? I have it on record that the chemists were going to bomb with or without approval, so my actions were just playing into the established flow.

[XivilaiAnaxes]

I just want to point out the telescopic baton has been nerfed to be almost entirely useless with the stun rework unless it was recently buffed without me noticing.

And the flash is one of the easiest to counter tools in the game. Far from "strongest non lethal weapons".

[The Wrench]

I'd like to hear another admin's take on this situation as well.

If we could get a higher administrator to review this case, that would be great. I feel like we've hit a brick wall in this discussion, or if you would like, I'm more than happy to discuss this in discord. My tag is The Wrench#5820 so feel free to Direct message me.

[OhChildflayer]

I'd like to hear another admin's take on this situation as well.

If we could get a higher administrator to review this case, that would be great. I feel like we've hit a brick wall in this discussion, or if you would like, I'm more than happy to discuss this in discord. My tag is The Wrench#5820 so feel free to Direct message me.

Admins do not handle ban appeal stuff anywhere but in the full transparency of the forums.

[Vekter]

I'd like to hear another admin's take on this situation as well.

As frustrating as it is to get greytided to hell and back, I feel like you kind of lost any real protection around the point where you declared open season on the botanists for jacking a chem dispenser. Chem dispenser boards start in tech storage on all the maps and are round start research (If not, they are very early on the tech tree). It's not particularly difficult to replace that machine. You had every reason to be upset and I would have also engaged sec at that point, but I don't think calling the two botanists valid (and indirectly leading to their deaths) was anywhere near acceptable. I also think that beating the tider into a soft crit wasn't really necessary.

By themselves, I would probably say this warrants a note at the most lenient, but given that Arcane has established that you have a history of poor decision making as a head, I don't see an issue with his punishment here.

[The Wrench]

By themselves, I would probably say this warrants a note at the most lenient, but given that Arcane has established that you have a history of poor decision making as a head, I don't see an issue with his punishment here.

2020-05-26 10:42:16 | Bagil | Vekter


Warned - Killed the clown in response to him hitting a few people with a potted plant. Quite an over-escalation all things considered.

The note from May was not a note obtained while being a head of staff though, That was a note from a chaplain run where I beat a clown for attacking crewmembers with a plant. I was reprimanded at the time, as it should be. This was the first time I've had any escilation issues while being a head of staff.

[Coconutwarrior97]

Responding to botany bum rushing your chem gear with asking for their murder and approving a bombing of their department is oversescalation.
Beating someone to near death in your office for entering it once is also over-escalation, generally you toss them out once, then if they try getting in another time they've opened up themselves to a nasty response.

The only issue we take with this ban is that there is little contextual information in the ban reason, which makes it difficult for interpretation in the future. The ban reason will be edited to include this context, but the ban remains.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes.
Domitius: Yes.
Naloac: Yes.