[MRP] Captain and His Shotty

[Cobby]

Should the Captain be allowed to take a shotgun for armory for, lets presume, no reason other than to defend himself / because he likes the shotgun more?

Is it ok depending on the ammo he puts in it (this means the shotgun is not the problem)?

Is it ok if he specifically trades in his egun for it, thereby leaving the armory with the same amount of guns?

My take on it is that a captain has access to lethals in the form of his roundstart egun (NOT including antique) and sword, in addition to one of the best CC items in the game aka baton. He is, by default, a "geared up" character and getting a shotgun does not make him any more geared up that his starting kit. If he wants to trade his back slot for a shotgun because he likes it more than the egun than that's fine, the only caveat I personally would have is if he wants to larp as sec he will be bullied if he uses lethal rounds to subdue criminals.

[Misdoubtful]

From the mindset of, they start with the big guns and they are in charge, is this really an issue?

As long as its coherent and believable, and they aren't trying to tank the round or dunk on people with that shotgun with little reason for it, what does it matter?

---

Maybe I just have a real hard time viewing this from a certain perspective, but it seems weird to get into the territory of policing the captain over something like this.

Having a point and laugh at sec-tains is one thing, but why take a step towards forbidding it or turning it into something akin to a bureaucratic nightmare of acceptable and unacceptable with things like:
YOU TOOK THE BAD AMMO
YOU TOOK THE SHOTGUN AND DIDNT TRADE IN THE EGUN
NO SHOTGUN ALLOWED

I feel like this boils down to intentions and what happens as a result/leading up to it, rather than an overarching good or bad, or a this is acceptable and this isn't acceptable.

AKA, CONTEXT MATTERS

[SkeletalElite]

Why is it every time I see maintainer talking about shotguns they talk about losing a back slot.
Do you guys not realize you can put shotguns on suit storage slot of armor?
That includes cap's carapace, one of the better armors.

[Cobby]

The situation I saw where an admin called out a user for having a shotgun was on his back and I wrote this at the end of said round.

Thank you for clarifying it can be held in several locations though, not just the back.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

if he wears the shotgun on his back he is probably new to the game and not a threat even if he had 2 shotguns

[Cobby]

I’m not sure how it matters if he wears it on his back or not? Let’s say he trades it for the armor storage slot does that make it no longer ok to have?

Are you trying to say that if someone wears it on back it is not ok but that must mean they’re new so go easy on them? I don’t understand where that connects.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

if he used it in armor slot there was a clear intent of power game

while on the back its either for RP ( captain thinks lasers give people cancer so he prefers ballistic ammo (it also helps poor gunpowder factories where the captain grew up in)) or its his first time ever with the shotgun, so he is exploring the game and its definely not power game

[NecromancerAnne]

Alternatively sometimes you can get away with minimum carrying capacity. You can have your baton in your pocket or security belt, pinpointer and oxygen in pocket and another shotgun in suit storage, maybe a riot shotgun. Maybe you need to have your hands free more and you're carrying the ion rifle. What's it matter? This doesn't add anything to the discussion.

The discussion is about preparing for antagonists with a powerful weapon, not an opportunity to make judgement calls about how green the captain is. That's just being elitist for no reason.

[Ayy Lemoh]

if he used it in armor slot there was a clear intent of power game

while on the back its either for RP ( captain thinks lasers give people cancer so he prefers ballistic ammo (it also helps poor gunpowder factories where the captain grew up in)) or its his first time ever with the shotgun, so he is exploring the game and its definely not power game

and if he's lucky enough to guess it can be put inside the armor slot?

[terranaut]

why are you getting hung up on where hes carrying the shotgun

[Cobby]

Reminder this is MRP, so really the only metric that should be considered is powergaming. Any other metric like what you can/can’t gimmick as outside of the existing rule list is not important (which is why you can larp as a caveman assistant gimmick if you wanted).

Is the Captain, guy equipped with several lethal options and one of the best CC items, powergaming by trading his egun in for a shotgun? Does Ammo matter?

[Misdoubtful]

I ought to go a bit more in depth on my previous statement.

I think its more than a bit much to view this in terms of gun trades and ammo types, or just about the shotgun itself. What if we instead look at it more so on the act of them actually looting the armory and why?

Again I think context is key here:

Is a captain justified in looting the armory at round start just because they feel like it and are grabbing guns because they can? Not really, right?

Are they justified in looting the armory because they saw its a blue shift at round start and know there is a traitor aboard and want them dead? Not really, right?

Are they justified in gearing up because someone called them out over something they did? Not really, right?

Is the context of them stocking up because there are more lizards on the station than usual and they need to be 'forcefully relocated to space' valid? Not really, right?

If the captain got attacked or sec has gone missing or whatever narrative you can think of like that, then sure it might be a good idea to gear up a bit and get that shotgun. At that point who knows what's coming next, paranoia!

You know, a believable reasoning, for a believable cause.

[Cobby]

Taking a singular gun from the armory (or I guess getting one from cargo) be it because you have a preference for it / want to give your character a certain look / whatever the reason as someone who owns and is in near absolute control of the entire station AND already boasting some of the best common crew weaponry in the game should probably not be considered “looting”.

Again MRP, if it’s not breaking the more concrete rules like powergaming then I don’t see what rules this is being covered under anyways that wouldn’t also stop people from running other wacky gimmicks like assistant larping as a caveman with spear. If it’s some maintaining the thread of immersion or something, can anyone explain what RP is lost when someone uses the shotgun to kill a guy over a laser? Be mindful I’m NOT defending breaking the global rule of “play as sec = try to non lethal”, if you have a shotgun and use it instead of an egun you don’t get to excuse lethal rounds because it isn’t as easy to switch to disable on it.

If the answer is “only in certain situations can the already geared up character change his loadout using the armory”, then that definitely needs to be made more visible since that is pushing the higher end of what MRP constitutes for many people imo.

[Misdoubtful]

Taking a singular gun from the armory (or I guess getting one from cargo) be it because you have a preference for it / want to give your character a certain look / whatever the reason as someone who owns and is in near absolute control of the entire station AND already boasting some of the best common crew weaponry in the game should probably not be considered “looting”.

Again MRP, if it’s not breaking the more concrete rules like powergaming then I don’t see what rules this is being covered under anyways that wouldn’t also stop people from running other wacky gimmicks like assistant larping as a caveman with spear. If it’s some maintaining the thread of immersion or something, can anyone explain what RP is lost when someone uses the shotgun to kill a guy over a laser? Be mindful I’m NOT defending breaking the global rule of “play as sec = try to non lethal”, if you have a shotgun and use it instead of an egun you don’t get to excuse lethal rounds because it isn’t as easy to switch to disable on it.

If the answer is “only in certain situations can the already geared up character change his loadout using the armory”, then that definitely needs to be made more visible since that is pushing the higher end of what MRP constitutes for many people imo.

I agree, I'm just trying to figure some sort of rationale to personally be able to think this through from, and trying to look at a wider picture of things.

But I've realized that as I keep coming back to this, that I hate trying to look at this and poke at it from both sides.

[oranges]

shotguns must be removed

[wesoda25]

Why?

[Armhulen]

The station is balanced around laser weaponry except the most powerful weapon in the game is a shotgun

[Armhulen]

Like, must feel bad to steal the reflective hoodie or whatever and then you get shotgunned to death, must feel bad to buy an eshield and get shotgunned to death, you see where i'm going here? Shotgun beats everything. Shotgun beats desword, shotgun beats nukeops. it's kind of ridiculous

[wesoda25]

...bulletproof?

[Armhulen]

My point is that the syndicate uplink is built around being resistant to lasers, the station has special armor to be resistant against lasers, antagonists get all sorts of EMPs to cripple lasers, and all of this is bypassed by the strongest weapon in the armory being a ballistic weapon

[Ayy Lemoh]

My point is that the syndicate uplink is built around being resistant to lasers, the station has special armor to be resistant against lasers, antagonists get all sorts of EMPs to cripple lasers, and all of this is bypassed by the strongest weapon in the armory being a ballistic weapon

I thought the laser-resistant armor was meant as a complete fucking joke on purpose tbh. That's why the traitor is actually given a chance to be able to steal it since if it was actually useful then he never would be able to without murder.

[Armhulen]

My point is that the syndicate uplink is built around being resistant to lasers, the station has special armor to be resistant against lasers, antagonists get all sorts of EMPs to cripple lasers, and all of this is bypassed by the strongest weapon in the armory being a ballistic weapon

I thought the laser-resistant armor was meant as a complete fucking joke on purpose tbh.

ouch

[pugie]

My point is that the syndicate uplink is built around being resistant to lasers, the station has special armor to be resistant against lasers, antagonists get all sorts of EMPs to cripple lasers, and all of this is bypassed by the strongest weapon in the armory being a ballistic weapon

I thought the laser-resistant armor was meant as a complete fucking joke on purpose tbh. That's why the traitor is actually given a chance to be able to steal it since if it was actually useful then he never would be able to without murder.

Don't mean to tangent too hard but no: the laser resistant armour is a trenchcoat now and covers the entire body I believe.

[Cobby]

We have had shotguns and other crew ballistics for years now, antags are not strictly balanced against laser weaponry regardless of any desire code end to go back to NT energy / Syndicate Ballistics.

[confused rock]

My point is that the syndicate uplink is built around being resistant to lasers, the station has special armor to be resistant against lasers, antagonists get all sorts of EMPs to cripple lasers, and all of this is bypassed by the strongest weapon in the armory being a ballistic weapon

I don't think shotguns need to be removed and I'd have to explain for hours to say why, but I will say this.
1. The bartender has a fucking shotgun, lol, and it's the most broken shotgun in the game because you can saw it off and then fire it one handed.

2. to me it's more a coincidence that shotguns are very powerful against everything, and that they're essential as they exist as a ballistic weapon in the armory- were they removed, they would all but need to be replaced with auto rifles. To me, back in 2015 when energy shields were popular, Energy shields were balanced around shotguns existing. They were there so that a team of six could go head on against the whole crew, which primarily had energy weapons, but importantly they could still be stopped. The masses would just have to use inferior melee, and a select few had ballistic weapons, the shotguns in the armory. I think outside the detective's at the time 15 brute and a stun revolver they were the only bullet weapons crew could get, actually? Until those prototype smgs were added? The point is that ablatives, energy shields, dual energy swords, etc exist and are balanced because ballistics are rare, but they still exist. You can do the work of several people in one fight with them because they effectively reduce the amount of enemies you have to fight at once, but you can't murder the entire station with them without a fight because some people do have a shotgun.

In this way, I think it's entirely fair that the captain can grab a riot shotgun, though I personally wouldn't. The captain is the captain, and there's no reason why they shouldn't have a weapon that, above all, means that they have a fair chance in any 1 on 1 fight. cultist with a stun hand? they can gg you in one hit, but if the captain is lucky enough to see that bullshit coming and has a shotgun, well, they can push the cultist away with a point blank shot and so possibly have a fighting chance. Guy with dual esword? just buying that shouldn't be enough to gg the fucking captain, and it is unless the captain is really good or gets lucky rng on their baton, or they have a riot shotgun. If anyone shouldn't be a cheap kill for an antag, it's the captain. Riot shotguns are essential because there's a ton of threats security just can't deal with otherwise, even more now that you can only carry a few lasers. That's because it's a ballistic weapon, and all the threats I am speaking of could also be dealt with by an auto rifle. However, there are a few other threats, such as the bullshit of cultists, the 2-hit crit of the revolver, the utter bullshit disarm and stunning shots of an energy crossbow, a half-competent ash heretic in armor (which they can make themselves) which is therefore able to perform a fucking jaunt every 15 seconds and can make his own healing potions, so you need to be able to kill them very fast, and space dragons. All of these threats require a lot of damage to take down, very fast. For that, the other advantage of the shotgun, it dealing as much damage in one shot as one of the memefruit revolvers botany can spam out, comes into play. And that's what to discuss. I can see why people advocate for removing it, but I don't, and I especially don't because right now there's so much shit that gives some people an absurd advantage, and riot shotguns are the only thing that give security something close to that power. There's a few other things, like syringe guns with deathmixes, but that's medbay stuff, and medbay should not have the most reliable 1 shot weapon on the station.

tldr ablatives are balanced, if anyone can take a shotgun it's the captain, sec needs ballistic weapons, and there's a lot of bullshit right now that does warrant security having a 60 damage pump action weapon that is still miles worse than a revolver.

[Megarop]

My point is that the syndicate uplink is built around being resistant to lasers

must feel bad to buy an eshield and get shotgunned to death

shotgun beats nukeops. it's kind of ridiculous

Both of the syndicate hardsuits are more protective against bullets than they are lasers. Eshields would be OP if the crew didn't have ballistic weaponry because then they'd make you immune to every conventional ranged weapon the crew has access to while still being able to use ranged weapons yourself.

Like, must feel bad to steal the reflective hoodie or whatever and then you get shotgunned to death

the station has special armor to be resistant against lasers

The station also has bullet resistant armor which is cheaper to get from cargo and three times more plentiful in the armory.

[remanseptim]

this thread is bonkers
some of this stuff is honestly 'fire extinguishers are powergame' tier
a captain should have all the right in the world to blow away the tider in his office with big bertha

[Armhulen]

FYI I updated my thoughts about ballistics and the shotty on station, you can read it here:
https://hackmd.io/@tgstation/SJ2AT-Ivv

[NecromancerAnne]

What the fuck is even being argued right now. I thought this was about the captain pre-emptively arming for unknown threats with weapons and equipment far more excessice than his usual loadout, which a shotgun typically is (though rubbershot does exist) and hence why it's in the armory. Not whether shotguns are good or bad for the game or whatever else is going on.

[Cobby]

This is about the captain trading in the shotgun/grabbing shotgun for reasons beyond "there is athreat"

[Cobby]

Bumping this.

Again, powergaming is gearing up for no reason "just in case". The Captain is already geared up for threats by default, it should not matter WHICH weapon he wants to wield even if you want to argue which gun/guns are better/worse because his current kit is already designed around being able to use lethals. This is not even considering that the shotgun CAN be a nonlethal tool depending on what you fill it with.

An assistant who does not have any weapon taking the shotgun would be powergaming because he is not by default kitted to take a weapon.

A security officer who does not have intended lethals (btfo "stuns are lethal" arguments) taking the shotgun would be powergaming because he is not kitted to have lethals without response.

A captain who starts with lethal options (Sword, energy gun) taking the shotgun would not be powergaming because he is already provided lethals without there being a reason behind it.

Powergame is strictly to keep people from going out of their way to gear up for no reason. The captain getting a shotgun (with whatever ammo) is no different than the chemist going out of their way to make a factory for every ailment or an engineer setup that trivializes the balance of power despite no existing power-sink risks. He has access to the arsenal roundstart, and he is given lethals at roundstart, it should not be contentious for him to be able to choose.

[cacogen]

inuyasha you can get a shotgun if you want

[Coconutwarrior97]

Trading out the laser gun for a shotty is fine as long as it doesn't become a regular thing for a captain to do.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes.
Domitius: Yes.
Naloac: Yes.