Goon Chem Feedback

[MMMiracles]

Cause it had to be made eventually.

Heaters need more visible feedback (show current temp) and an ability to eject early.
Crank is rediciously OP in the fact a 50u pill will crit a person within 10-15 seconds and kill them in an extra 10. They drop hp faster than any conventional healing or cyro pod could do to save them.

[deathhoof]

Although I am excited to try new lorenzinator mixes, I am not liking how gimicky most of the new chems are. Compare them to the chems we already have and you will see that its like adding sprinkles to vanilla. All the chems we already have were one function straightforward chems with no special snowflake circumstances. All these new chems are nothing but special circumstances. I hate it. I eat vanilla icecream damnit and I want a vanilla server too. Tg needs to be a server that has a code that other servers use as a codebase. Gimicky shit will make tg into another goon.

[iamgoofball]

the point of goonchem is so that you can't just go "lol he's dying? here have a 50u tricord healeverything pill, have a nice day you're back up and running at max health"

Tkdrg did a rework of heaters, PR is up for that.

Crank, I'll look into.

[danno]

Do you honestly think people just give 50u tricord pills to dying people
have you ever even been in medbay

[iyaerP]

I do when I am chemist. Or sometimes I pop a tricord smoke grenade.

[oranges]

Do you honestly think people just give 50u tricord pills to dying people
have you ever even been in medbay

When ever competent chemists are around medbay may as well be replaced with a desk with tricord pills sitting on it.

[PKPenguin321]

At first I hated this idea because I thought it would replace the current chem system, but then I saw it just added on to it.
Then I saw another PR that's supposedly the first of many to purge our already very functional chemistry system. https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/7074

Goofball, I love you in the most heterosexual way possible, but I hate your idea of purging tgchem. I know it's an opinion (and you all very much have the right to disagree violently), but I think our current chemistry is better than goon in that it's more straightforward. I absolutely hate these changes. If the new goon chem system can't build off of the old, I'd rather just not have it.

And then I could be wrong about the purging of tgchem entirely and Goof's just replacing items already on the map that are chem related. In which case, ignore me please

[bandit]

Wasn't Numbers working on a large chemistry rewrite and actually said he had made progress this time?

[Steelpoint]

Numbers has been working on a chemistry rewrite forever.

[Snakebutt]

Cause it had to be made eventually.

Heaters need more visible feedback (show current temp) and an ability to eject early.
Crank is rediciously OP in the fact a 50u pill will crit a person within 10-15 seconds and kill them in an extra 10. They drop hp faster than any conventional healing or cyro pod could do to save them.

wiki says crank does random damage in OD.

Bigger problem is cyanide is brewable, which is a toxin 3 poison, even more robust than pure plasma. I can crit someone in 6 seconds with it and a few other chems, and I haven't even played with goonchem yet.

[Alex Crimson]

Yeah could really use a guide or something for this. I tried the goon wiki, but obviously many of the chemicals are not in this update. What do we have apart from the basic healing chems and the poisoner stuff?

The new poisons look pretty great though. 2 TCs and you get a box full of 30u bottles of various poisons.

EDIT: Holy jebus Formaldehyde is insanely lethal.

EDIT2:

Formaldehyde and Venom are very lethal because they seem to produce a massive amount of Histamine . Formaldehyde is kinda random so it isnt consistently lethal. Venom however seems to consistently produce x4 as much Histamine as the amount of Venom in the persons system. 5 units ends up being 20-25 units of histamine, 10 units becomes 45-50 etc.

Polonium kills with 5 units just because it irradiates the victim so much. They die from pure toxin damage.

Neurotoxin doesnt do anything, unless i am using it wrong. 5/10/15 units did nothing to the humans i injected.

[oranges]

Wasn't Numbers working on a large chemistry rewrite and actually said he had made progress this time?

If by progress you mean holding up any changes in chemistry for 2 years and then having 2 new chems that didn't have any effects then yes

[mikecari]

Numbers has been working on a chemistry rewrite forever.

He completed it half a year ago, apparently:
https://archive.moe/v/thread/276607493/#q276627754
https://archive.moe/v/thread/276607493/#276630489

I was in that thread, so hopefully linking to it isn't creepy.

Woah what the fuck, that's MY thread. Creepy.

Yes I like to shill TG a lot for shits and giggles on /v/.

[Snakebutt]

Yeah could really use a guide or something for this. I tried the goon wiki, but obviously many of the chemicals are not in this update. What do we have apart from the basic healing chems and the poisoner stuff?

I'm not good at coding, but I'm code literate, lemme pull the latest branch and see what I can figure out. No promises, this is fucking gooncode we're talking about

[allura]

tg wiki now has all the new chems

[Alex Crimson]

Awesome. One thing id suggest is to add the metabolism rates for the chemicals. Seems like an important feature with goonchem.

[mikecari]

tg wiki now has all the new chems

Confirmed for based wiki

[Snakebutt]

Observations:

Toxin/drugs
HOLY FUCK THESE VALUES
Every last one of the goon drugs causes chloral levels of stacking damage, the more that's in your system, the more lethal it gets. To reference, Nicotine causes 2toxin and oxygen loss (times remaining reagent? Not quite sure the effect of *REM. EDIT: Nope, it's the exponential growth damage of chloral. Every last fucking chem in this pack uses it though.)
Lexorin, one of the most robust poisons in a chemist's previous arsenal, just causes 3 oxygen loss, set. The other drugs cause somewhere between 1 and 10 loss, again modified. Im surprised critting even takes 10 seconds. A max roll on a high, 50u dose might well cause apparently instant death.
Histamine takes only a moderate dose to cause 3 types of damage at higher values than any existing toxin we have, and is a byproduct of many chemicals.
Neurotoxin should cause moderate brain damage and toxin damage, and eventually put them to sleep. Basically beefed up Impedrezene.

Apparently we can make carpet by injecting blood into a bottle of space drugs. I need to doublecheck if 'carpet' isnt something else.

Styptic Powder and Silver Sulfadiazine should only be applied externally, via patch(if we got those)
Omnizine is twice as effective as tricord, but half as effective as Doctor's Delight. But it doesn't do a probability check, like both the other curealls do, so it may work faster.
Calomel suffers from the same problem poisons do, rate of loss is too high compared to our chemicals. I could 'accidentally' apply Calomel to a healthy player, reduce their health pretty fast, then apply a potent mix that will kill in seconds due to the reduced health.
The comment on Polonium being absurd? Penetic Acid will clear that shit right out. And will heal you right through it, with a combined toxin heal greater than the (2) existing chems combined.
Salicyclic Acid is laughably useless compared to bicard.
Salbutamol is a more reasonable dex plus, greatly cures oxygen loss and breathloss without just removing it instantly. I like this, to the point of removing dex plus.
Perfluordodecalin has a decent chance of letting you survive space naked and without internals, good replacement for Leporazine.
Ephedrine does NOT reduce run speed. It is in fact a combination of hyperzine and synaptazine with no drawbacks.
Morphine does none of the things it says. It causes hyperzine effect but puts you to sleep after so long, and if you take to much you drop what you're holding. Nothing about jitters.
Saline-Glucose has some dodgy code that actually calls if the target is alive or not, making me wonder what the hell it's doing. It doesn't heal the way everything else does.
Synthflesh doesn't cure brute, it cures organ damage. And if I'm reading this wrong, you slap the steak onto a wound, which is just fucking great. If not, you have to grind synthmeat, which is boring, and less fun than fixing a wound with a cold, artificial steak.
Charcoal also removes some reagents in the body.

Also redo all the 'Results in 4-5 units instead of 3' lines on the wiki, you get out what you put in, no recipe is uneven with these chemicals. You put in 5 ingredients, you get out 5 units.

Acutally going to work on doing all these wiki edits myself, thought I'd put them down for discussion.

[Alex Crimson]

I would like to point out that you can make a really awesome 50unit pill to kill someone. 25 units of Neurotoxin(the bartender drink), 15 units of Perfluorodecalin and 10 units of Cyanide. That pill will instantly stun via the Neurotoxin and mute from the Perfluorodecalin, whilst the Cyanide slowly knocks them into crit. The stun/mute does not wear off until they are in crit. You can probably optimize it somewhat, but it works and is rather easy to make.

[Snakebutt]

I would like to point out that you can make a really awesome 50unit pill to kill someone. 25 units of Neurotoxin(the bartender drink), 15 units of Perfluorodecalin and 10 units of Cyanide. That pill will instantly stun via the Neurotoxin and mute from the Perfluorodecalin, whilst the Cyanide slowly knocks them into crit. The stun/mute does not wear off until they are in crit. You can probably optimize it somewhat, but it works and is rather easy to make.

Looking at this code, I could kill someone before they have time to notice their health going down. The legendary '10 second crit' mix can be surpassed easily with these new toxins.
We need to review some of these chems, their effects and values. Having something that is synap AND hyper, with no fucking drawbacks, is just bullshit. And it should be stackable with synap, poooosibly further reducing stun time. I'd like to see the effects of both plus a cultist with unholy water, I'd bet they'd be damn near unstunable.

[Alex Crimson]

I kinda like the idea of having really strong chems. They just need to be hard to produce. Gate them behind multiple recipes and result in 1-2 units.

Yeah you could probably stack different poisons to virtually insta-crit someone, but you can only produce 2 of the new poisons via chemistry and one requires silver. I was going for a "you are slowly dying and there is nothing you can do" pill. Considering Mute Toxin requires Uranium it was hard to do before. Now we have glorious Perfluorodecalin.

[allura]

snakebutt, your observations with the "results in x" are wrong.
also, your morphine description was so horrible i had to totally remove it. jesus christ

[dezzmont]

I kinda like the idea of having really strong chems. They just need to be hard to produce. Gate them behind multiple recipes and result in 1-2 units.

Yeah you could probably stack different poisons to virtually insta-crit someone, but you can only produce 2 of the new poisons via chemistry and one requires silver. I was going for a "you are slowly dying and there is nothing you can do" pill. Considering Mute Toxin requires Uranium it was hard to do before. Now we have glorious Perfluorodecalin.

A gate in the form of a multi tier formula is not a gate at all. You would need to either introduce resource scarcity for ingredients in high end reactions or make each stage require high skill and focus to produce successfully. Otherwise it is about as hard as printing trichord, not at all. The only mixed in code that are hard to pull off are complex grenade mixes due to how you need to mentally mix them so as not to cause conflicts.

[Snakebutt]

why would a 2 ingredient recipe result in 3 units instead of 2? You get out what you put in, that notice is useless.

Also this is my first wiki edit ever, pls be gentle.

I kinda like the idea of having really strong chems. They just need to be hard to produce. Gate them behind multiple recipes and result in 1-2 units.

Yeah you could probably stack different poisons to virtually insta-crit someone, but you can only produce 2 of the new poisons via chemistry and one requires silver. I was going for a "you are slowly dying and there is nothing you can do" pill. Considering Mute Toxin requires Uranium it was hard to do before. Now we have glorious Perfluorodecalin.

Everyone ever is going to beg for ephedrine pills. We need to make it illegal under spacelaw or some shit, rename it meth. Most of the others are pretty good.

[allura]

OH MY GOD

[Alex Crimson]

I kinda like the idea of having really strong chems. They just need to be hard to produce. Gate them behind multiple recipes and result in 1-2 units.

Yeah you could probably stack different poisons to virtually insta-crit someone, but you can only produce 2 of the new poisons via chemistry and one requires silver. I was going for a "you are slowly dying and there is nothing you can do" pill. Considering Mute Toxin requires Uranium it was hard to do before. Now we have glorious Perfluorodecalin.

A gate in the form of a multi tier formula is not a gate at all. You would need to either introduce resource scarcity for ingredients in high end reactions or make each stage require high skill and focus to produce successfully. Otherwise it is about as hard as printing trichord, not at all. The only mixed in code that are hard to pull off are complex grenade mixes due to how you need to mentally mix them so as not to cause conflicts.

It works. Look at Glycerol. Nobody ever makes Nitroglycerin grenades because its so annoying to brew up all that Glycerol. If the higher-tier drugs were gated behind multiple recipes that require the heater and results in 1-2 units, people just wouldnt bother making much of it. If it comes to it, then make the recipes require materials from Botany.

[Snakebutt]

I kinda like the idea of having really strong chems. They just need to be hard to produce. Gate them behind multiple recipes and result in 1-2 units.

Yeah you could probably stack different poisons to virtually insta-crit someone, but you can only produce 2 of the new poisons via chemistry and one requires silver. I was going for a "you are slowly dying and there is nothing you can do" pill. Considering Mute Toxin requires Uranium it was hard to do before. Now we have glorious Perfluorodecalin.

A gate in the form of a multi tier formula is not a gate at all. You would need to either introduce resource scarcity for ingredients in high end reactions or make each stage require high skill and focus to produce successfully. Otherwise it is about as hard as printing trichord, not at all. The only mixed in code that are hard to pull off are complex grenade mixes due to how you need to mentally mix them so as not to cause conflicts.

It works. Look at Glycerol. Nobody ever makes Nitroglycerin grenades because its so annoying to brew up all that Glycerol. If the higher-tier drugs were gated behind multiple recipes that require the heater and results in 1-2 units, people just wouldnt bother making much of it. If it comes to it, then make the recipes require materials from Botany.

The heater looks like it is going to be a default part of chemistry with what we have, all the chems worth making use it. Needing botany, or even mining would make it would be more balanced. As is though, the best answer is to remove Ephedrine from everyone but the ERP/dethsquid and erase the recipe, and start doing math on the toxins to see were they should be at. Because 20bruteloss is probably instant ggnore.

[dezzmont]

I kinda like the idea of having really strong chems. They just need to be hard to produce. Gate them behind multiple recipes and result in 1-2 units.

Yeah you could probably stack different poisons to virtually insta-crit someone, but you can only produce 2 of the new poisons via chemistry and one requires silver. I was going for a "you are slowly dying and there is nothing you can do" pill. Considering Mute Toxin requires Uranium it was hard to do before. Now we have glorious Perfluorodecalin.

A gate in the form of a multi tier formula is not a gate at all. You would need to either introduce resource scarcity for ingredients in high end reactions or make each stage require high skill and focus to produce successfully. Otherwise it is about as hard as printing trichord, not at all. The only mixed in code that are hard to pull off are complex grenade mixes due to how you need to mentally mix them so as not to cause conflicts.

It works. Look at Glycerol. Nobody ever makes Nitroglycerin grenades because its so annoying to brew up all that Glycerol. If the higher-tier drugs were gated behind multiple recipes that require the heater and results in 1-2 units, people just wouldnt bother making much of it. If it comes to it, then make the recipes require materials from Botany.

No one makes Glycerol because it has an entirely seperate gate, Botany co-operation, and has no really legit uses, meaning asking for corn as a chemist is a huge tater tell.

Once high end ingredients enter the mix multiple recepies become a decent gate if each tier reduces the amount of effective units you have, but that isn't really about the gate being multiple tiers so much as it being a scarcity gate.

Also, heater placement is super freaking annoying. Mapping issue related to this change.

[Snakebutt]

Wiki also needs the recipe for oil, acetone and such. Actually we don't even need acetone, none of the recipes use it. Charcoal is impossible to make, as it is not possible to pick up ashes left by a fire.

Given how cigarettes work, i'm going to bet that you can't actually OD on nicotine without guessing when the cigarette runs out of reagents and then lighting another. Grindable cigs to collect their nicotine, making nicotine patches possible?

[Jalleo]

If something is not able to be made or anything like that please make sure to create a issue report about it on github or go onto IRC and yell to someone on #coderbus until they do.

[Alex Crimson]

If something is not able to be made or anything like that please make sure to create a issue report about it on github or go onto IRC and yell to someone on #coderbus until they do.

Well how much are we supposed to be able to make? Is this the entire goonmed system, or just a handful of the recipes? My understanding was that only a few recipes were added.

[iamgoofball]

I'll get the extra shit like Ash and Oil added to the wiki, sorry about that.

[Ezel]

>not having werewolf serum
>not putting it in the wiki

[Vigilare]

feedback: toxins op
toxin kit especially op

[Snakebutt]

Goon direct healing medicine, synthflesh, styptic, silver sulpha, all heal 1:1, meaning 10u of a medicine that fucking uses silver heals 10u burn damage. This is beyond shit. How the hell do goone spessmen not keel over with this shit healing and deadly ass poisons?

And yes, average toxin value of ALL goon toxins is 5. Previous average was 2, and the highest attainable was 3, and one of the 2 that powerful was admin only. We need to go through and decide how to change the meds based on their reagents, difficulty to make, and effect.

Silver sulfa should be like dexplus for burns, considering the need for liquid silver.

[danno]

How the hell do goone spessmen not keel over

do you have any idea how robust you are on goon
goon spacemen can take a fucking beating.

[Snakebutt]

Spoiler:

datum/reagent/carpet
name = "Carpet"
id = "carpet"
description = "A slippery solution."
reagent_state = LIQUID
color = "#C8A5DC" // rgb: 200, 165, 220

/datum/chemical_reaction/carpet
name = "carpet"
id = "carpet"
result = "carpet"
required_reagents = list("space_drugs" = 1, "blood" = 1)
result_amount = 2

We can make liquid carpet. This is literally useless, but I could see potential for an on-mix reaction to create carpet fibers, making it possible to make the station 62% more cozy.

Liquid Dark matter seems to just cause the area to get covered in dirt when used in a grenade. All goon pyro reactions just cause an EMP sound effect, sparks and what looks like a water spray effect, which is pissweak for a grenade going off.

[iamgoofball]

uh

silver is in the chem dispenser guys

you can easily mix it

[Snakebutt]

Point is, 1u chemical to 1 point of healing is fucking terrible. I need 2 50u pills or patches just to bring someone out of crit, while 10u of our chems will do the same. Toxins doing 3/3/3loss, or 1-10loss, or 5 loss, is op as fuck. A lot of the more situational chemicals are great, like something that clears reagents from the body, and more potent toxin heals are nice, but we really need to review these values and bring them in line with our existing chems, because as is they are either laughably useless, or gamebreakingly powerful.

[MMMiracles]

In patch form it acts as a bruise/burn pack essentially, you're trading off slow healing in exchange for quick instant application.

[callanrockslol]

Jesus christ what the fuck you need to actually balance this or I'm going to murder everyone all the time as a double agent by accident

[Snakebutt]

In patch form it acts as a bruise/burn pack essentially, you're trading off slow healing in exchange for quick instant application.

I can put bicard in a patch too for super robust bruise packs. And the goon ones don't even stack, and have to be made in 50u batches to compare to bruise packs. They are universally shit. There's another recipe that has a 50/50 chance of healing brute at half the rate of bicard if they have more than 50 brute damage.

I think. If only the goon on touch chems work in patches, it doesn't even justify us being able to make them.

[Steelpoint]

As noted, Goon characters can take a lot of punishment and take a very, VERY, long time to die.

I've seen people have half of their limbs blown off from a explosion, yet they lived long enough to drag their dying body all the way from arrivals to medbay. Or I've been wailed on by a "wrestler Captain" for about two minutes and I still was alive after he threw me into a morgue tray.

[miggles]

all this ClF3 spam

[Alex Crimson]

The new poisons are OP because Chemists do not know the recipes to counter them yet. As people learn more about Goonchem the poisons will be less effective. Besides, they are tator only poisons so i think its fine. Not like you can kill the station with a few 30unit bottles. Maybe increase the poison kit cost to 6 TC.

[Snakebutt]

The new poisons are OP because Chemists do not know the recipes to counter them yet. As people learn more about Goonchem the poisons will be less effective. Besides, they are tator only poisons so i think its fine. Not like you can kill the station with a few 30unit bottles. Maybe increase the poison kit cost to 6 TC.

nah, I can make most of the worst poisons without going to the potato market. One chemical clears ALL potential poisoning, so it won't even take that long for people to learn. They're OP because they can crit in 10 seconds without mixing with other chemicals, and can dunk fools like a damn pulse gun when mixed and put in a syringe gun. Their toxin damage is AT LEAST double anything we had before, if not x6 in the case of histamine.

[Alex Crimson]

You can only make Cyanide right now. Maybe Formaldehyde if you ever get some Silver, which you probably wont. The Super OP poisons(Venom, Polonium) are tator only. But yeah, mixing is still crazy. That has always been the case though.

[Snakebutt]

I can make: Calomel (4tox loss, cures itself at 20 health)
Neurotoxin (1brain and 1toxloss, puts target to sleep in 17 cycles)
Formaldehyde (1toxloss, 10% chance to metabolize into histamine) Silver is in the dispensers.
Indirectly: Histamine (dosage greater than 20 does 5 to 10 oxy, brute and toxloss)
Crank (Dosage over 20 does 1 to 10 brain, tox and bruteloss)
If I can get my hands on morphine, I can make Krokodil, which does a STAGGERING 10-30 bruteloss)

Venom is just robust formaldehyde, only thing I really can't get as non-tator chem is polonium, which is easily countered by a prepared medbay with existing meds (arithrazine), or outright cured with new meds (calomel, pentetic acid)

For reference, Lexorin does 3oxyloss, and was our most robust chemical, critting in about 45-50 seconds.

[Alex Crimson]

Calomel doesnt cure itself very fast. It just stops damaging you at 20% health. The reagent will still remain in your system and purge other reagents. Adding that to any kind of mix will not work, although i havent tested it with other stuff. Neurotoxin doesnt even work right now either.

Ill go test some combinations on a private server and see how fast they crit.

EDIT: Tried a mix with as many new chems as i could get. Including traitors chems. Didnt use Krokodil or Neurotoxin because they are bugged right now. So i made two pills with the following reagents...

Pill 1:

20 units of Crank
10 units of Formaldehyde
10 units of Cyanide
10 units of Venom

Pill 2:

20 units of Crank
10 units of Formaldehyde
10 units of Calomel
10 units of Venom

Pill 1 took me from 100% to crit in 13 seconds. Pill 2 took 27 seconds.