Security scaling increase should be reversed

Locked
User avatar
Atlanta-Ned
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:11 pm
Byond Username: Atlanta-ned

Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Atlanta-Ned » #598777

From: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 76#p598776
Naloac wrote:Sec scaling changed from 5 to 10.
Booooooooooo.

I haven't heard about security being overplayed. What I have seen is security being horrendously understaffed to the point of uselessness. This makes it much, much worse. I'd like to hear the justification for this, or to have it reset to 5.
Statbus! | Admin Feedback
OOC: Pizzatiger: God damn Atlanta, how are you so fucking smart and charming. It fucking pisses me off how perfect you are
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Cobby » #598778

I’m guessing it’s curated more to terry where they do have a sec issue
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
RaveRadbury
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:41 am
Byond Username: RaveRadbury
Github Username: RaveRadbury
Location: BK ChatZone
Contact:

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by RaveRadbury » #598779

Cobby wrote:I’m guessing it’s curated more to terry where they do have a sec issue
We do have the ability for per-server configs.
User avatar
Naloac
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:21 pm
Byond Username: Naloac

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Naloac » #598780

Ive always been under the impression that all the servers bar terry have the issue of too little sec. This wont change much if thats their issue.
Timberpoes wrote: Lepi was right all along.
Image
Image
I Might Be an admin, You should leave me feedback: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=24032
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Cobby » #598781

I’d hesitate changing it based on servers that don’t ever contribute to the “too many sec” issue anyways.

If it becomes an issue where the cap is being filled then I think we can gauge if the bar is being met or not. I’m not sure preemptively “fixing” it will do any favors.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
dendydoom
In-Game Head Admin
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:40 am
Byond Username: Dendydoom

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by dendydoom » #598792

This is a terrible outcome for Manuel honestly, where sec is more often than not tremendously understaffed. If there is no sec team at roundstart, then the likelihood is that there'll be no real security presence for the entire round outside of command.
MrStonedOne wrote:I always read dendy's walls of text
NSFW:
Image
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by oranges » #598796

I'd like to know what discussion prompted the change
User avatar
wesoda25
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:32 pm
Byond Username: Wesoda25

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by wesoda25 » #598801

A cap would be better than scaling. Or best of both worlds, normal scaling up to a certain threshold (40 maybe) and then scaling is increased
[this space reserved]
User avatar
kieth4
In-Game Head Admin
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:17 pm
Byond Username: Kieth4

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by kieth4 » #598803

A lot of people seem to be missing the point. If your server does not have sec this will not affect anything. This will only be a noticeable change for high sec pop servers.
Image
Qustinnus
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:30 am
Byond Username: Qustinnus

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Qustinnus » #598811

dumb change made because lepi couldn't nerf sec on github. configs were a mistake.
User avatar
saprasam
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:42 pm
Byond Username: Saprasam

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by saprasam » #598814

security is a bit too strong anyways
Image
(FORMER) tgmc admin (I HAVE REGAINED MY HUMAN RIGHTS)
User avatar
Timberpoes
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:54 pm
Byond Username: Timberpoes

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Timberpoes » #598815

The maths behind the change, since the headmins discussed this in private and nobody got a chance to chip in about it.

tl;dr -
Old: 5 sec officers minimum at 1 pop, increasing by 1 at 28 pop and by 1 more every 5 pop thereafter, hard capping at 12 upon reaching 58 pop.
New: 5 sec officers minimum at 1 pop, increasing by 1 at 55 pop and by 1 more every 10 pop thereafter, never reaching the hard cap of 12 as server pop limits are too low, soft capping at either (75 = 8 officers) or (85 = 9 officers) depending on the max number of players the 90 pop servers cap out at.

This does not impact the HoS, Det or Warden. No matter what the Sec Officer config is set to, these 3 will always join and do not count towards the Sec Officer cap.

The number of available Sec Officer job slots is

Code: Select all

officer_positions = min(12, max(J.spawn_positions, round(players_readied_up / ssc)))
Where J.spawn_positions is the spawn_positions of the Security Officer job datum, which is 5.

And ssc is the security scaling coefficient, which is currently configged to 10 and was 5 before the change.

Code: Select all

officer_positions = min(12, max(5, round(players_readied_up / 10)))
Practically, at all population levels there can be no fewer than 5 sec officers since that is a hardcoded value. Similarly, there is a hard coded cap of 12 sec officers.

Prior to the config change when ssc was set to 5, new sec officer slots were opened up starting at 28 players (28 / 5 = 5.6, rounded up to 6) and every 5 players thereafter up to 58 players (58 / 5 = 11.6, rounded up to 12), where the code would then cap the max to 12.

With the ssc set to 10, new officer slots are opened up starting at 55 players (55 / 10 = 5.5, rounded up to 6) and every 10 players thereafter, up to whatever the population cap is for non-observers on the 90 pop servers. Theoretically, all the way up to 9 sec officer slots at 85 players. The 70 pop servers will cap out at 6 sec officers at 55 pop, since players above 60 pop are limited to observer only.
/tg/station Codebase Maintainer
/tg/station Game Master/Discord Jannie: Feed me back in my thread.
/tg/station Admin Trainer: Service guarantees citizenship. Would you like to know more?
Feb 2022-Sep 2022 Host Vote Headmin
Mar 2023-Sep 2023 Admin Vote Headmin
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by oranges » #598818

1 to 5 is already laughable, 1 to 10 is a downright joke that will mean security is ineffective.
User avatar
NecromancerAnne
In-Game Admin
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:55 pm
Byond Username: NecromancerAnne
Location: Don't touch me, motherfucker...

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by NecromancerAnne » #598820

If nothing has functionally changed except on the extreme end, what's even the point of this thread?

It's not like you can make people play security.
cybersaber101
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:30 am
Byond Username: Cybersaber101
Location: Canada, eh?

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by cybersaber101 » #598826

Rest in peace large sec gang, killed by terry. So when do we scale assistants?
Last edited by cybersaber101 on Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
The same poster, over and over and over and over and over and-
User avatar
skoglol
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:25 am
Byond Username: Skoglol
Github Username: kriskog

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by skoglol » #598827

NecromancerAnne wrote:If nothing has functionally changed except on the extreme end, what's even the point of this thread?

It's not like you can make people play security.
Nooo you cant just go make config changes without arguing publicly about it for a week!!!! :neigh:
User avatar
Naloac
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:21 pm
Byond Username: Naloac

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Naloac » #598830

oranges wrote:1 to 5 is already laughable, 1 to 10 is a downright joke that will mean security is ineffective.
wacky opinion to be honest. In what sense? against lone antagonists? if so I dont really know what your talking about even just a few people vs one lone antag is a death sentence for most antagonists. For Team antags? where the crew is encouraged to join up with sec and fight off the team with them? normally leading to way more people on the crew side than the antagonist? what are you comparing to when you say that its laughable?
Timberpoes wrote: Lepi was right all along.
Image
Image
I Might Be an admin, You should leave me feedback: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=24032
User avatar
Naloac
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:21 pm
Byond Username: Naloac

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Naloac » #598831

dendydoom wrote:This is a terrible outcome for Manuel honestly, where sec is more often than not tremendously understaffed. If there is no sec team at roundstart, then the likelihood is that there'll be no real security presence for the entire round outside of command.
change wouldnt effect a server with no large sec pop, just those with it.
Timberpoes wrote: Lepi was right all along.
Image
Image
I Might Be an admin, You should leave me feedback: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=24032
Tlaltecuhtli
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:16 am
Byond Username: Tlaltecuhtli

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #598840

when i go antag and i kill sec just for a new sec wave to respawn was problematic
User avatar
actioninja
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:40 am
Byond Username: Actioninja
Location: comatose

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by actioninja » #598854

Naloac wrote:
dendydoom wrote:This is a terrible outcome for Manuel honestly, where sec is more often than not tremendously understaffed. If there is no sec team at roundstart, then the likelihood is that there'll be no real security presence for the entire round outside of command.
change wouldnt effect a server with no large sec pop, just those with it.
Image
Image
User avatar
kieth4
In-Game Head Admin
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:17 pm
Byond Username: Kieth4

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by kieth4 » #598858

I don't understand half the people's logic here. "Noo you're nerfing sec and making it trash!!!" ok, if your server had 0 sec pop it will still have 0 sec pop. It's making it so there are less sec slots open. How will this in anyway nerf sec on servers that have none?
Image
User avatar
pugie
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:41 pm
Byond Username: Doctor Brutality

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by pugie » #598860

Why is the head coder concerned about low numbers of security when code changes stop people from playing security (and the game altogether : ))) )
Image
User avatar
Mothblocks
Code Maintainer
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:33 am
Byond Username: Jaredfogle

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Mothblocks » #598864

Naloac wrote:Ive always been under the impression that all the servers bar terry have the issue of too little sec. This wont change much if thats their issue.
Do you have any data to back up this "impression"? Did you make any attempt to ask anyone for it?

I'm extremely peeved about a fundamental design change like this happening out of the blue (I literally didn't even know until I saw oranges interrogate about it in policy-bus) and without any discussion amongst the standard designers of the game. It's especially personally annoying after I spent a good while going through the design talk and implementing a feature that relies on and encourages more people to play sec. I will be more peeved if it turns out no actual data analysis was done for this change, something I would've required on someone making this change to the codebase with this reasoning.

If there was any problem at all, discussing this publicly with maintainers likely could've yielded a more apt solution. Instead, it feels like Lepi was ticked off that the last time this happened (stun baton nerf), it ended with their PR being closed. If this is truly the case (and if it's not, the optics here are dreadful), then I am not happy that there is incentive for me to treat a PR from a head admin any differently because I have precedent that they'll just try to get what they want anyway.

Any change like this would've had to go through serious design discussion on the code end, and I don't agree fundamentally that head admins should just speed bike over that (even though config gives them the *ability* to do so).
Pugie wrote: Why is the head coder concerned about low numbers of security when code changes stop people from playing security (and the game altogether : ))) )
Literally what are you on about, dude?
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!

Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.

Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
User avatar
Naloac
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:21 pm
Byond Username: Naloac

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Naloac » #598869

Jaredfogle wrote: words
Do you have any data to back up this "impression"? Did you make any attempt to ask anyone for it?

Asked both bobbah and ned for this they didnt get back to me so I did it manually with both their services. over time speaking to just regular players about their experiences.

If there was any problem at all, discussing this publicly with maintainers likely could've yielded a more apt solution. Instead, it feels like Lepi was ticked off that the last time this happened (stun baton nerf),

Had I done the same thing with no PR this wouldnt be spoken about. I did the PR to fix an issue I saw that wasnt being fixed. After that we took one of the avenues to fix the same issue in a different less obtrusive way. I personally had spoken to both you, oranges cobby and skoglol at different points over this. So have other people about the same issue. With the general consensus being from maintainers being that isnt much of an issue.. Since it wasnt being fixed on the code side we did something that would effect no server but the one having this issue.
Timberpoes wrote: Lepi was right all along.
Image
Image
I Might Be an admin, You should leave me feedback: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=24032
User avatar
Somepan
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:01 pm
Byond Username: Somepan

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Somepan » #598884

I don't understand how this is that big of a change anyway. 16 sec job for 80 pop won't ever get filled anyway
► Show Spoiler
User avatar
TheFinalPotato
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:58 am
Byond Username: LemonInTheDark

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by TheFinalPotato » #598887

Somepan wrote:I don't understand how this is that big of a change anyway. 16 sec job for 80 pop won't ever get filled anyway
On the whole I don't think people are taking issue with the config change
I think the issue here is more

Coders ask headmins to make sec more attractive and lower the freedom given to assistants to validhunt (See the assistant scaling pr, a request to remove assistant maint access https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=27061), both of which are attempts to solve via code problems the admin team doesn't appear to be able to solve at the moment.
Headmins nerf sec in a manner that limits how big the sec force can get, in an attempt to solve issues with overly mechanical sec forces on terry after a pr made by one of the headmins was closed.

This seems more like miscommunication then anything else, I know Lepi has said they want to solve the assistant issue, and it doesn't seem like most people are mad at the change on its own, since it's reasonably harmless, they're more mad about either headmins trying to pr something, getting denied, and then just doing it anyway, or doing this and not addressing other worries.

There might also be some backlash because policy-bus is a thing, and it just wasn't used here. Maybe an expectation of it being used for this sort of thing has been built
My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperials. Can you say the same?
Image
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
wesoda25
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:32 pm
Byond Username: Wesoda25

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by wesoda25 » #598899

Some data on this would be nice.

Perhaps a chart showing % of antags alive at the end of the shift at different security populations? I'm specifically interested how sybil would look, because it can get high security pops and I've seen it a good couple times in the relatively few connections I've had of late.

Still at the end of the day this doesn't seem very radical to me, an HOS, warden, detective, and 5 officers for 54 pop station and then more officers for every 10 after that? That is a substantial security force.
[this space reserved]
cybersaber101
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:30 am
Byond Username: Cybersaber101
Location: Canada, eh?

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by cybersaber101 » #598921

TheFinalPotato wrote:Snip
Basically this opinion, I just wish anything was communicated before we all had to ask.
The same poster, over and over and over and over and over and-
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by oranges » #598942

pugie wrote:Why is the head coder concerned about low numbers of security when code changes stop people from playing security (and the game altogether : ))) )
I'm obviously concerned about the low number of security, which is obvious because I have knocked back two sec nerfs and considered multiple solutions to increased greytiding, but nice false equivalence.
Sparkezel
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:13 pm
Byond Username: SparkezelPL

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Sparkezel » #598953

wesoda25 wrote:Some data on this would be nice.

Perhaps a chart showing % of antags alive at the end of the shift at different security populations? I'm specifically interested how sybil would look, because it can get high security pops and I've seen it a good couple times in the relatively few connections I've had of late.

Still at the end of the day this doesn't seem very radical to me, an HOS, warden, detective, and 5 officers for 54 pop station and then more officers for every 10 after that? That is a substantial security force.
IIrc its HoS + Warden + Detective + 5 minimum Sec Officer slots + scaling 1/10 pop
User avatar
Super Aggro Crag
In Game PermaBanned
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:47 pm
Byond Username: Super Aggro Crag

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #599160

i dont play security because the HOS keeps demoting me for information gathering using enhanced interrogation techniques
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by iamgoofball » #599291

Naloac wrote: I did the PR to fix an issue I saw that wasnt being fixed. After that we took one of the avenues to fix the same issue in a different less obtrusive way.
You are not a game designer. You are glorified middle management for a department completely separate from game design.

You were told your ideas on game design were incorrect by the actual experts who have been doing this for over 10 years. You then chose to ignore them and force the change you wanted through anyways.

This is grounds for you to step down in shame, honestly, and is more evidence you and the other headmins cannot be trusted with game design configurations.
User avatar
actioninja
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:40 am
Byond Username: Actioninja
Location: comatose

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by actioninja » #599292

Naloac wrote:Since it wasnt being fixed on the code side we did something that would effect no server but the one having this issue.
I think you just accidentally said the quiet part out loud
Image
User avatar
NecromancerAnne
In-Game Admin
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:55 pm
Byond Username: NecromancerAnne
Location: Don't touch me, motherfucker...

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by NecromancerAnne » #599300

oranges wrote:
pugie wrote:Why is the head coder concerned about low numbers of security when code changes stop people from playing security (and the game altogether : ))) )
I'm obviously concerned about the low number of security, which is obvious because I have knocked back two sec nerfs and considered multiple solutions to increased greytiding, but nice false equivalence.
Security being strong is not what will make people gravitate towards the role since that is the present state of things. The wider issue is a general reluctance to becoming a target while possessing a significant degree of importance in the round. i.e. your death = more deaths which you are vicariously responsible for. This is why there was backlash towards the assistant caps too. Everyone wants to be a nobody, because being a somebody either gets you shot in the back or blamed when things go wrong.

This uncertainty about taking on that responsibility also is compounded by a lack of any other job content for security beyond fighting and preparing to fight, which can be exhausting on a round to round basis, and so security also has turnover rate problems with newer players. The people who stick with it long term probably found some way to kill time between fighting or security defeating all the antags will force an early shuttle call, which isn't too uncommon either.

I doubt, as a hypothetical, that if you made the role literally invincible that it would change anything about the perception or player interest, because playing on easy mode merely cheapens the experience more while increasing the perception of responsibility given the amount of power allocated to that player.

This is the same reason why we have a lack of heads. And no amount of advantages given to those players will necessarily fix that problem either. Their responsibilities are handled by their subordinates, and they themselves don't do anything much at all. I think only the CE truly has any unique power in that he is able to easily bridge between engineering and atmospherics to create more elaborate engines. Maybe the QM as a pseudo-head of staff does as well.
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by oranges » #599304

NecromancerAnne wrote:
oranges wrote:
pugie wrote:Why is the head coder concerned about low numbers of security when code changes stop people from playing security (and the game altogether : ))) )
I'm obviously concerned about the low number of security, which is obvious because I have knocked back two sec nerfs and considered multiple solutions to increased greytiding, but nice false equivalence.
Security being strong is not what will make people gravitate towards the role since that is the present state of things. The wider issue is a general reluctance to becoming a target while possessing a significant degree of importance in the round. i.e. your death = more deaths which you are vicariously responsible for. This is why there was backlash towards the assistant caps too. Everyone wants to be a nobody, because being a somebody either gets you shot in the back or blamed when things go wrong.

This uncertainty about taking on that responsibility also is compounded by a lack of any other job content for security beyond fighting and preparing to fight, which can be exhausting on a round to round basis, and so security also has turnover rate problems with newer players. The people who stick with it long term probably found some way to kill time between fighting or security defeating all the antags will force an early shuttle call, which isn't too uncommon either.

I doubt, as a hypothetical, that if you made the role literally invincible that it would change anything about the perception or player interest, because playing on easy mode merely cheapens the experience more while increasing the perception of responsibility given the amount of power allocated to that player.

This is the same reason why we have a lack of heads. And no amount of advantages given to those players will necessarily fix that problem either. Their responsibilities are handled by their subordinates, and they themselves don't do anything much at all. I think only the CE truly has any unique power in that he is able to easily bridge between engineering and atmospherics to create more elaborate engines. Maybe the QM as a pseudo-head of staff does as well.
I agree, which is why there are also no buffs in the works, these issues are entirely administrative problems which the headadmins still do not address, admin enforcement of chain of command would be a bare minimum.
User avatar
sinfulbliss
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:53 am
Byond Username: SinfulBliss
Location: prisoner re-education chamber

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by sinfulbliss » #599313

oranges wrote:I'm obviously concerned about the low number of security, which is obvious because I have knocked back two sec nerfs and considered multiple solutions to increased greytiding, but nice false equivalence.
Generally speaking sec is played if you want intense fights against antagonists, but the real fun of it, I think, is that you have a unique dynamic where you can 100% trust the other officers working alongside you (since they can't be evil). I think supporting and strengthening that dynamic, some way to work in teambuilding, would make sec a lot more attractive to people. I don't think the gear matters, really, or the greytiding. If anything the greytiding is kind of fun, in a weird sort of way, and is a part of the culture of sec.

I find the best rounds as sec are the ones where the threat is strong, but not overwhelmingly so, so you are kept busy but there is some leisure time to chill and talk about the stuff that's happening. These are often the "wave" sort of rounds where there's a threat, it's defeated, then another threat comes several minutes later, etc., as opposed to all at once. Often times there is so much going on it's hard to justify taking a few minutes to just chat or RP with people, especially if people are being murdered during that time. I think that limitation is what turns a lot of people off of sec. Fucking with tiders or arresting for petty crimes (i.e. shitsec behavior) is probably just a way to take a break from the real work which is silently walking through maint to find cult runes and stuff.

In an ideal world the threat would be determined by the number of security, so it's somewhat balanced, but that probably has all sorts of practical problems. Anyways, just my 2 c on the matter.
Spoiler:
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Naloac
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:21 pm
Byond Username: Naloac

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Naloac » #599349

iamgoofball wrote:
Naloac wrote: I did the PR to fix an issue I saw that wasnt being fixed. After that we took one of the avenues to fix the same issue in a different less obtrusive way.
You are not a game designer. You are glorified middle management for a department completely separate from game design.

You were told your ideas on game design were incorrect by the actual experts who have been doing this for over 10 years. You then chose to ignore them and force the change you wanted through anyways.

This is grounds for you to step down in shame, honestly, and is more evidence you and the other headmins cannot be trusted with game design configurations.
Funny enough I actually went to college for game design. implying that this is a massive change when it wont effect the servers your shouting about is either dishonest or stupid. or is implying that you dont know much about game design.
to the second part, lol, To the third part lol. Also I did originally want this just on terry but it was changed to all for uniformity + it wouldnt effect the other servers just terry. MSO himself says that the configs are needed because one size cant fit all the servers ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
wesoda25 wrote:Some data on this would be nice.

Perhaps a chart showing % of antags alive at the end of the shift at different security populations? I'm specifically interested how sybil would look, because it can get high security pops and I've seen it a good couple times in the relatively few connections I've had of late.

Still at the end of the day this doesn't seem very radical to me, an HOS, warden, detective, and 5 officers for 54 pop station and then more officers for every 10 after that? That is a substantial security force.
I agree I wanted to get data on this first before doing it but no one was willing / it was alot of effort so it didnt happen so I had to manually do it. the second part I highlighted is kinda? what I asked for. I asked for sec population related to antag death %. For the third part I agree. it is quite a large sec force having them be able to have effectively near unlimited amounts of sec just seems like over kill. Its also not just sec, its the fact that if antags start getting noticed its not just sec that will go after them but the crew, when a cult appears people with mindshields will begin *with sec* to stop the cultists. same on Revs. This also happens to lone antagonists as most of the time lone antag v seccie thats been spotted will have the crew jump in to help.
Timberpoes wrote: Lepi was right all along.
Image
Image
I Might Be an admin, You should leave me feedback: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=24032
User avatar
pugie
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:41 pm
Byond Username: Doctor Brutality

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by pugie » #599357

Image

Replace "vault alchemist" with "players"

Replace "government" with "codebase"
Image
cacogen
Forum Soft Banned
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:27 am
Byond Username: Cacogen

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by cacogen » #599365

Naloac wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Naloac wrote: I did the PR to fix an issue I saw that wasnt being fixed. After that we took one of the avenues to fix the same issue in a different less obtrusive way.
You are not a game designer. You are glorified middle management for a department completely separate from game design.

You were told your ideas on game design were incorrect by the actual experts who have been doing this for over 10 years. You then chose to ignore them and force the change you wanted through anyways.

This is grounds for you to step down in shame, honestly, and is more evidence you and the other headmins cannot be trusted with game design configurations.
Funny enough I actually went to college for game design. implying that this is a massive change when it wont effect the servers your shouting about is either dishonest or stupid. or is implying that you dont know much about game design.
TV on the forums
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
NSFW:
Image

Image
User avatar
FloranOtten
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:50 pm
Byond Username: FloranOtten

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by FloranOtten » #599377

I just can't think of a reason you'd do this to be honest.

I get that you have an idea you really think will help the servers. I think all of us can relate to that. But discussion is how we refine ideas into solutions. Why would you bypass that? If the codebase isn't interested, you should talk to them about it. Despite what r*dditors seem to think, our maintainers are pretty reasonable guys. Why would you step past them and use your power to implement a change regardless?

Is this some critical issue? Was this breaking every round? No. I don't think so, anyway. This wasn't an urgent issue that required immediate attention. So why did you tell everyone to go fuck themselves and just force your change through anyway?
Image
Image
Image
Image
OOC: BeeSting12: i love you floran

1. You may not injure a revs are non humans or, through inaction, allow a revs are non humans to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by revs are non humanss, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Give me feedback!
User avatar
Not-Dorsidarf
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
Byond Username: Dorsidwarf
Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #599455

OK so this means that instead of having a maximum of 15 members of security at 58 players you now have a maximum of... about 9 sec members?

I can't remember the last time I saw 9 people in security even on terry tbqh. I've been off for a few weeks is this some recent epidemic of stations that are 1/4th cop?
Image
Image
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please. 🖕🖕🖕
User avatar
Timberpoes
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:54 pm
Byond Username: Timberpoes

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Timberpoes » #599462

Image

Code: Select all

=MIN(12, MAX(5, ROUND(A6/$B$1, 0)))
=MIN(12, MAX(5, ROUND(H6/$B$2, 0)))
/tg/station Codebase Maintainer
/tg/station Game Master/Discord Jannie: Feed me back in my thread.
/tg/station Admin Trainer: Service guarantees citizenship. Would you like to know more?
Feb 2022-Sep 2022 Host Vote Headmin
Mar 2023-Sep 2023 Admin Vote Headmin
Mailbox
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:51 pm
Byond Username: Mailbox

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by Mailbox » #599785

Doesn't matter. People pick security because they want to validhunt if there is no security spot they will still validhunt just with a greysuit on instead. changes does nothing I don't understand why people are so dramatic about it and nothing will change at all with traitors getting stomped on high security servers. 5/10 meh
User avatar
MrStonedOne
Host
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:56 pm
Byond Username: MrStonedOne
Github Username: MrStonedOne

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by MrStonedOne » #599786

iamgoofball wrote:
Naloac wrote: I did the PR to fix an issue I saw that wasnt being fixed. After that we took one of the avenues to fix the same issue in a different less obtrusive way.
You are not a game designer. You are glorified middle management for a department completely separate from game design.

You were told your ideas on game design were incorrect by the actual experts who have been doing this for over 10 years. You then chose to ignore them and force the change you wanted through anyways.

This is grounds for you to step down in shame, honestly, and is more evidence you and the other headmins cannot be trusted with game design configurations.
For the record: Admins are DMs, you just create revisions to fifth edition. Everything you do on the subject of game design are suggestions at best and admins have the final authority to ignore it.
Forum/Wiki Administrator, Server host, Database King, Master Coder
MrStonedOne on digg(banned), Steam, IRC, Skype Discord. (!vAKvpFcksg)
Image
User avatar
NamelessFairy
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:40 pm
Byond Username: NamelessFairy

Re: Security scaling increase should be reversed

Post by NamelessFairy » #599789

I do want to bring up that the HoP/Captain/Acting captain can still just open new sec slots nomatter how low the sec scaling is set to. If you've run out of slots for sec and still require more then you can just get whoever has access to raise the number of slots. The HoPs ability to open new job slots is pretty underused as is and is generally relegated to flooding the crew with chaplains during cult shifts or raising the station clown population. Lowering the sec officer cap gives more opportunities for the HoP to open more slots when the going gets tough.
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users