Lack of player input on changes

[Timbrewolf]

Bottom post of the previous page:

HG and I used to have a bit of a rivalry for reasons but we buried the hatchet so that we might be able to work together as headmins and we've gotten along great ever since.

I'm not going to apologize for him but I will say that I've developed a new understanding for the position he's in and how he is called up to stick up for and defend the folks under him over the last months.

If it is polite to say he is "curt" in his responses when it comes to criticisms of the codebase I would also say that is a product of the nominally ridiculously discussion that often results from criticisms of the codebase.

The whole point of this conversation, I thought(?), was trying to come up with a better way to conduct this whole shebang for the future and not singling out aspects of that exchange that are currently unsatisfactory.

-snip-

Well I am not a part of that thing. I'm not part of coderbus. I'm just trying to negotiate some kind of middle-ground compromise. Being a headmin might give me some perceived clout but it really has nothing to do with this. Like I said before, none of my authority has anything to do with this. I'm only speaking right now as someone who has played here for a while and witnessed some ins and outs of different aspects of the community.

I mean what would I practically do? Ban all the coders? Institute policies that punish players for acknowledging new code additions? That's ridiculous. I'm just another concerned voice in the conversation albeit with maybe a little more perspective on different angles of the issue than most. I can no more up and decide that this is how things should be than any of you. I am as easily ignored in this as anyone else.

My best advice for everyone would be to nudge others towards this discussion and just see what happens. There's no ultimatum any of us are in a position to give. We can at best explain our reasons for wanting a change and construct a change that is beneficial for everyone involved.

[Falamazeer]

If it is polite to say he is "curt" in his responses

Yeah, but it's "accurate" to say he's rude.

The whole point of this conversation, I thought(?), was trying to come up with a better way to conduct this whole shebang for the future and not singling out aspects of that exchange that are currently unsatisfactory.

I dunno feels like there is merit to conducting this whole shebang in the future with HG fucked off elsewhere. Just saying what I'm sure plenty are thinking.

[soulgamer]

HG and I used to have a bit of a rivalry for reasons but we buried the hatchet so that we might be able to work together as headmins and we've gotten along great ever since.

I'm not going to apologize for him but I will say that I've developed a new understanding for the position he's in and how he is called up to stick up for and defend the folks under him over the last months.

If it is polite to say he is "curt" in his responses when it comes to criticisms of the codebase I would also say that is a product of the nominally ridiculously discussion that often results from criticisms of the codebase.

The whole point of this conversation, I thought(?), was trying to come up with a better way to conduct this whole shebang for the future and not singling out aspects of that exchange that are currently unsatisfactory.

Fine.

Any major changes should be tried out on basil for two weeks then placed up for a vote. If it meets at least 70% dissaproval it is removed. If it gets less than that it gets two weeks on the main server for another vote. Repeat vote and if less than 70% dissaprove it gets left on. This should allow universally hated updates to be axed while letting the ones with a decent amount of support remain. 70% is a good number that allows for a margin of error. Most people HATE the goonchem update and that only has a 73% "REVERT IT" response.

NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER LIVE TEST A MAJOR CHANGE ON SYBIL WITHOUT FIRST TESTING IT ON BASIL FOR MAJOR BUGS/BALANCE ISSUES.

[Falamazeer]

That would slow progress a lot, I'm more interested in a generalized "give a fuck" rule for coders.

[Timbrewolf]

See:

What I would propose as a resolution to this mess, once and for all:

1) Stop pretending the /tg/code is separate from /tg/station. Don't change a thing but the idea that all this work is done for some other purpose. Bring it in from the cold.

2) Hold elections for headcoders like we do for headadmins. Have a coder elected head, an admin elected head, and a player elected head.

3) Appoint coders to watch over the feedback section of the forums and treat topics and posts in that subforum with the same gravity that we do FNR. Stomp out shitposting and name calling. If people cannot construct their criticisms with the same maturity and urgency-of-topic that we expect in FNR than throw it out.

[soulgamer]

That would slow progress a lot, I'm more interested in a generalized "give a fuck" rule for coders.

That would be for major changes like goonchem, paps stun change, and other changes of that magnitude. Small content additions or tweaks are fine to test live as long as long as the coders are willing to listen to after the fact feedback on this.

[soulgamer]

Stop pretending the /tg/code is separate from /tg/station. Don't change a thing but the idea that all this work is done for some other purpose.

If you think the coders will ever sit by and let this happen you are higher than the average botanist. I would love this, and it is right next to "complete admin transparency" when it comes to things that would fix this server, but it will never happen.

[Steelpoint]

I think having headcoder elections handled similar to headadmin elections would be good.

Of course that assumes the headcoders would be all right with that.

[Timbrewolf]

Stop pretending the /tg/code is separate from /tg/station. Don't change a thing but the idea that all this work is done for some other purpose.

If you think the coders will ever sit by and let this happen you are higher than the average botanist. I would love this, and it is right next to "complete admin transparency" when it comes to things that would fix this server, but it will never happen.

At this point it's just words.
It's only ever been just words.

It's not like we're asking some foreign kingdom to bend the knee and submit. We're asking maybe two or three people to admit to their constituents what they already know, and what most of them signed up to do in the first place: code for /tg/station.

I'd be really interested to know what percentage of contributors to /tg/code have never played on /tg/station, did not play on /tg/station before deciding that they wanted to put effort into coding for the /tg/station codebase.

What percentage of coders came from somewhere else entirely with the intention of adding to a codebase to be used somewhere else entirely.

[soulgamer]

Stop pretending the /tg/code is separate from /tg/station. Don't change a thing but the idea that all this work is done for some other purpose.

If you think the coders will ever sit by and let this happen you are higher than the average botanist. I would love this, and it is right next to "complete admin transparency" when it comes to things that would fix this server, but it will never happen.

At this point it's just words.
It's only ever been just words.

It's not like we're asking some foreign kingdom to bend the knee and submit. We're asking maybe two or three people to admit to their constituents what they already know, and what most of them signed up to do in the first place: code for /tg/station.

I'd be really interested to know what percentage of contributors to /tg/code have never played on /tg/station, did not play on /tg/station before deciding that they wanted to put effort into coding for the /tg/station codebase.

What percentage of coders came from somewhere else entirely with the intention of adding to a codebase to be used somewhere else entirely.

You are wanting to take away their freedom and last line of defense when it comes to shitty changes that no one wants. We both want this passed but I know better than to hope.

[Alex Crimson]

One thing i would like to see is a sticky on the feedback/ideas forums to say clearly that player opinion is rarely listened to, and that polls mean nothing. I think it would save a lot of time and cut back on the poll topics that turn into massive hate-fests.

If we are going to continue to allow the non-coder playerbase to have no say on code matters then lets atleast be open about it.

[Timbrewolf]

If you see a conversation trying to hash out a solution to a problem as a chance to dollop out some spite that's cool but it doesn't really help much at all.

You might be pissed but you're only ever going to stay pissed and find more reasons to be pissed if you keep on like that.

[Alex Crimson]

Im not pissed, im honest. You want to stop people complaining about coders and their changes? Not going to happen. I like goonchem, ive been a fan of it since i saw the first PR on Github. Once it was added though there was a massive outcry, and most of the people complaining either hadnt even tried using goonchem, or were complaining about something that wasnt even true. Players just bitched because they could, and because they hate change.

Doesnt matter how much power you have over the server, the playerbase or the coders. This is something you are not going to fix with your 3 rules. Having coders moderate the posts that are directly insulting them is just going to cause more bad blood for no good reason.

[bandit]

I don't understand why there's so much resistance among coders to thoroughly playtesting major sweeping changes -- not just testing for bugs, playtesting for balance and gameplay issues -- on a dedicated test server (with actual population, probably announced in OOC) before pushing them live. Alerting the playerbase that a change is coming would also be good, but even just playtesting. This is something almost every major game on a system not built from scrap metal and clown's tears does. The level of complexity spessmens has, why should it be any different?

[kosmos]

I don't understand why there's so much resistance among coders to thoroughly playtesting major sweeping changes -- not just testing for bugs, playtesting for balance and gameplay issues -- on a dedicated test server (with actual population, probably announced in OOC) before pushing them live. Alerting the playerbase that a change is coming would also be good, but even just playtesting. This is something almost every major game on a system not built from scrap metal and clown's tears does. The level of complexity spessmens has, why should it be any different?

Quoting for emphasis.

Could it be possible to have major changes on Badger a week beforehand so surprises (like genetics suddenly not working at all) would be noticed before going live? This could maybe help even out players between servers since at least I would love to play on the beta-bleeding-edge server and give feedback of the new stuff.

[cedarbridge]

I don't understand why there's so much resistance among coders to thoroughly playtesting major sweeping changes -- not just testing for bugs, playtesting for balance and gameplay issues -- on a dedicated test server (with actual population, probably announced in OOC) before pushing them live. Alerting the playerbase that a change is coming would also be good, but even just playtesting. This is something almost every major game on a system not built from scrap metal and clown's tears does. The level of complexity spessmens has, why should it be any different?

Quoting for emphasis.

Could it be possible to have major changes on Badger a week beforehand so surprises (like genetics suddenly not working at all) would be noticed before going live? This could maybe help even out players between servers since at least I would love to play on the beta-bleeding-edge server and give feedback of the new stuff.

More often than not its the "gotcha" of these changes that pisses people off the most and its obvious when the ahelps come in asking about it. Even some admins are caught off guard about some of these changes because really, most of them can't spend time on git while admining and also doing things that don't involve poorly rendered space stations. That's why there are so many threads about "features" that are only in PR format. Partially because players expect that if something is in a PR there's a good chance its going to end up on the server and they've also come to expect that if something is not desirable, that having it reverted or removed is tougher than moving mountains.

[Stickymayhem]

-snip-

This is incredibly unfair on badger players.

Badger is not a test server. Someone should make a test server instead

By the way this thread sounds like a good excuse for a roundtable.

[Steelpoint]

What must be understood is that new, and encompassing, features need to have people play it and test it. Sadly we don't have the luxury of a testing team to do that.

Simply having your feature on the server for a few days can get you more feedback than by any other method.

The biggest problem though is that once a feature is merged, it rarely gets reverted.

[AnonymousNow]

So we get testing instances for major changes, where a server is set up for a short time and people are invited - via messages going out on the existing servers - to test the new change(s) to hell and back. Many players would line up to abuse new systems in this sort of setting, and that means a thorough investigation and audit of the new mechanics. More transparency, less backlash.

Coders need to recognise that criticism isn't a personal attack - it's an opportunity to improve the thing being criticised, and any critic worth listening to in this particular area is one that actually plays the damn game. At the same time, I've been on 4chan for a little under ten years now, and in that time I've not seen so many faecal metaphors as I have here in the past few days - many players (myself included, to a degree - I'll talk about that in a moment) need to step back, and not let emotions completely take control of their responses.

Which came first - the chicken or the egg? Likewise, was it the bile of non-constructive players or the spite of non-receptive coders? Why don't people talk more, here and on the Git? Hell, even I made an account, and despite not being able to code a lick, I like to think (although Paprika will surely disagree) that I provide a small, useful service... in that I'm a complete Jonah who tends to run headfirst into killer bugs and obnoxious glitches, and I've started posting them on the Git for review. I have, however, seen several of my comments on other PRs simply vanish with no apparent explanation.

I am, as said before, at least a journeyman complainer from a country of terminal complainers. We overeat, because we hear grumbling constantly. Samhain feels like it's getting earlier every year because of the moans. We grow no grapes, but one of our chief exports is whine (the rest being coal, performers, druids and rain). We protest, and we argue, and... yes, sometimes, we bleat (there is no joke you could possibly make here that we haven't already). But in some respects, that has helped me, as it's turned me into a skeptic who tends to probe at things instead of taking them at face value. Even so, I felt I got a little carried away in my response to Goonchem - at first I was just shocked, and then, when I read some of the responses to peoples' dislike of the change, I grew indignant.

People should have the right to dislike things without having their opinions automatically disregarded because they're not in line with the creator's views, and I believe that the constructive criticism was distinct enough for the shitflinging that it shouldn't have been an issue to respond to that criticism, rather than lumping it in with the bollocks... and I'll admit, I zigzagged between both, especially since I had a trying weekend in real life and didn't expect this nonsense when I got on.

I'm already feeling completely scrambled by this whole situation, and it really makes me worry about the future of the server. I - me, the guy who's played the ins and outs of medbay for about four years running now - have played a doctor precisely once in the past couple of days... I prefer mining now, keeping out of the way and working alongside one or two people. And not having to worry about medicine.

Just... god, I keep coming back to this statement, and it never does any good, but I can't help but want to say... why can't we all just get along?

[kosmos]

-snip-

This is incredibly unfair on badger players.

How is it unfair? The second server (not the main server, to emphasize) would get new stuff to play with before others AND get an extra opportunity to greatly affect the changes before they're implemented.
A test server would be the best option, but I'm quite sure that our population couldn't cover three servers amd the third would be empty all the time.

[Snakebutt]

What I would propose as a resolution to this mess, once and for all:

1) Stop pretending the /tg/code is separate from /tg/station. Don't change a thing but the idea that all this work is done for some other purpose. Bring it in from the cold.

2) Hold elections for headcoders like we do for headadmins. Have a coder elected head, an admin elected head, and a player elected head.

3) Appoint coders to watch over the feedback section of the forums and treat topics and posts in that subforum with the same gravity that we do FNR. Stomp out shitposting and name calling. If people cannot construct their criticisms with the same maturity and urgency-of-topic that we expect in FNR than throw it out.

I've worked on a professional(as in someone actually made profit off of it) gaming server before. One of the BIGGEST concerns of the staff of said server was accountability. Being staff was not some unholy pact exempting you from criticism. If you did a shit job, if you fucked something up, you were held accountable.

How is coderbus held accountable for doing things like creating a massive glitch or a universally unliked feature change? Nearest I can tell, they aren't. If an admin bans someone without reason or uses their power to get an advantage, or give a player an advantage without reason, they are held accountable, likely removed from admin, yes? I understand competent coders are at a premium, but there must be some kind of backlash. They need to get bitched out on IRC, have all their PRs put under a microscope for a week or two, something.

And frankly, talk like this:

It's not your codebase. It's our codebase.

from a position of authority is outright toxic. It may be your code, but it's our server. You ignore the playerbase hard enough, insult, cajole and belittle the player, and you will find yourself coding for a server with 0 players. And I'm sure the coders just LOVE writing code that no one will ever see or enjoy.

As coders, your job is to make a game we, the players enjoy. If you forget that, start changing things to match what you want in spite of the community, you really need to question what your purpose here is, and not working on your own game, with hookers and blackjack.

[Kangaraptor]

.....

And frankly, talk like this:

It's not your codebase. It's our codebase.

from a position of authority is outright toxic. It may be your code, but it's our server. You ignore the playerbase hard enough, insult, cajole and belittle the player, and you will find yourself coding for a server with 0 players. And I'm sure the coders just LOVE writing code that no one will ever see or enjoy.

As coders, your job is to make a game we, the players enjoy. If you forget that, start changing things to match what you want in spite of the community, you really need to question what your purpose here is, and not working on your own game, with hookers and blackjack.

1000x this. Additionally, if the server and codebase are absolutely divided - remove HG from headmin. There, the division is solidified.

[Scones]

The fact that HG's contribution to this thread was essentially him saying "no fuck off i do what i want" says lots for the current relationship between coders and the playerbase.

This is the kind of conduct we both expect and allow from a headmin and headcoder. Something needs to change.

[Bombadil]

Yeah i mean if coderbus is a totally seperate entity from /tg/ that means that coder's should be incapable of getting admin status on our server after all we are two seperate entities so demote HG and remove headmin status from him and remove admin status from the rest of the coders. They think they can't answer to the community so they can lose their server priviliges.

Unless they fucking admit that coderbus and the server are nearly one and the same and then make reparations

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I try to mention big PRs in OOC as often as I can to make sure as many people as possible know what's going on, but the best way to find out what's incoming is really just to bookmark the Github page and tab in once every few days. I also don't like how big changes that maintainers like are being pushed much faster than ones they disagree with, (See: removal of old chemicals before anyone had real experience with the new ones, before most of the new ones were even on the damn wiki) but ultimately it's up to each of us, everyone who cares about the development and growth of the community to give a fuck. While the github work maybe does need to be a little more open and louder, community involvement goes both ways.

It's one webpage. Bookmark it.

[QuartzCrystal]

Admins have been complaining about the coder base not being beholden to anyone for as long as I can remember. A head-coder election would work, but the problem is we have so few coders who are actually qualified to be head coders.

If someone thinks their shitty idea is a good one and then works really hard on implementing it, they're going to be emotionally attached. Then when people complain we have a defensive parent of their code-baby freaking out and often the subject of totally outrageous personal attacks.

I think the only solution is have the head coders themselves open themselves to the community and be the ones we (admins and players) go to with concerns. If code is being reverted and a coder is gonna have their code-baby killed it should be the head coder who tells them. I would propose that only head coders respond to feedback threads, if they cannot justify a change themselves from the theoretically non-involved position as head coder then they should be the ones to fix the problem and work with the coder on fixing it.

Of course, will head coders do this? Probably not. HG checked out of this thread almost instantly (though dezzmont could have avoided posting a novel).

EDIT: If your response to this is "But that's not the headcoders job!" then what the fuck is it if not to keep coders in line?

[Scones]

Of course, will head coders do this? Probably not. HG checked out of this thread almost instantly (though dezzmont could have avoided posting a novel).

If someone 100% refuses to handle these issues isn't that sign that we should look into solutions either not involving them or involving replacing them?

[MisterPerson]

When a large amount of your feedback is "Fuck you you're Hitler why do you hate us and hate this game so much?" I can't fathom how anyone can be expected to eat that shit with a smile and apologize.

You're using the "fuck you you're hitler" to justify ignoring or even deleting complaints that are justified.
Nobody likes what HG just said, HG isn't retarded, he knew that would not win him any friends, and he said it anyways, why? because fuck you, that's why.
Deal with it, shades from the sky, mic drop motherfucker.

So yeah, I feel completely justified using words like gestappo, jackboots, hitler, and eat shit and die inside.

And thus everyone should feel completely justified ignoring what you have to say. You can't call people names and expect people not to call you names back. You also can't call someone names and then say "oh but look, I have this good part here, see?". That's like stealing a car and then donating 10 bucks to charity and claiming that it all evens out.

I'm not saying your feelings are invalid, I'm just asking that you understand why nobody cares about what you have to say.

[QuartzCrystal]

Of course, will head coders do this? Probably not. HG checked out of this thread almost instantly (though dezzmont could have avoided posting a novel).

If someone 100% refuses to handle these issues isn't that sign that we should look into solutions either not involving them or involving replacing them?

Did you read dezzmont's post? Because I didn't.

.:%QuartzCrystal:. I dunno, my only issue is that I hate the italicized robotic talk font.
.:&hg|work:. you mean how it looks in binary?
.:%QuartzCrystal:. Yeah, I hate it being italicized. Hurts my brain.
.:&hg|work:. i'll tell goof to change it
.:&hg|work:. since we have other formatting options it's dumb to distinguish it like that

My proposal works!


But seriously you guys, saying shit like "let's just stop updating the server! that'll teach em!" isn't helping anyone's position.

[Loonikus]

Papsmears campaign against references has literally become worse than Stalin. Let me explain to you just how bad that is.

Ok, lets break it down. One "Hitler" is worth around 6.0^106 human deaths. The EPA currently estimates that the average human life is worth around 6.9 Million USD (6.9 Megadollars). Therefore, we can determine that one "Hitler" is worth around 41, 400,000,000 USD (~41 Terradollars).

Stalin is one of two people I can think of off the top of my head who can be objectively proven as "worse than Hitler", as he clocks in at about 5 Hitlers, give or take.

Papsmear is the other person, who is worth around 8 Hitlers (1.3 Stalins). Therefore, it is safe to say that Papsmear has caused an equal amount of damage as .... well .... fuck I'm not typing all those digits. Lets just say that if Papsmears terribleness had a fiscal value, it would be worth more than literally the entire Earth and everything on it and in it... and possibly Mars as well.

I tried to calculate HGs asshole levels but it crashed my computer.

There. Thats your feedback.

[DemonFiren]

Other than that it's Tera, not Terra, I laughed. Hard.

[Falamazeer]

And thus everyone should feel completely justified ignoring what you have to say. You can't call people names and expect people not to call you names back. You also can't call someone names and then say "oh but look, I have this good part here, see?". That's like stealing a car and then donating 10 bucks to charity and claiming that it all evens out.

I'm not saying your feelings are invalid, I'm just asking that you understand why nobody cares about what you have to say.

No, I get that, But getting shit on merits a response.
And it feels like getting shit on when HG talks like that, and he's supposed to represent the interests of the server at large.

[ColonicAcid]

It's not your codebase. It's our codebase. You can imply soft power as much as you want, but you don't have it. Division between the server and project is absolute. I'm not interested in reading dezzmont platitudes for the billionth time and won't be checking back in this thread.

Oh look hg has his authority up his asshole again, someone call the plumber and tell him to bring the power trip plunger.
edit: actually let me allow to articulate some more. You got coder headmin and yet you still want to be a completely separate entity? I really did not understand SoS' decision to give coderbus any vote whatsoever, you want autonomy? Fine by me honestly, but don't expect to get shit in here. The fact that SoS did give you shit absolutely gobsmacks me, he practically gave it for free as well. I don't expect France to get any say in my parliament, but what just happened here is effectively 1/3 of the parliament is now French and making decisions with the French people in mind instead of me. Oh and your attitude is more toxic than fucking chernobyl there's that too don't worry HG i heard that if you're in a position of power long enough you'll learn that having such an arrogant shit eating grin of an attitude is unhealthy fer bsns.
inb4 this gets deleted lmao

I'm not saying your feelings are invalid, I'm just asking that you understand why nobody cares about what you have to say.

Go ahead and make more assumptions and then maybe even come up with a completely unrelated scenario again to prove a point maybe that'll make up for something that is obviously missing in your life amigo.

[Miauw]

Papsmears campaign against references has literally become worse than Stalin. Let me explain to you just how bad that is.

Ok, lets break it down. One "Hitler" is worth around 6.0^106 human deaths. The EPA currently estimates that the average human life is worth around 6.9 Million USD (6.9 Megadollars). Therefore, we can determine that one "Hitler" is worth around 41, 400,000,000 USD (~41 Terradollars).

Stalin is one of two people I can think of off the top of my head who can be objectively proven as "worse than Hitler", as he clocks in at about 5 Hitlers, give or take.

Papsmear is the other person, who is worth around 8 Hitlers (1.3 Stalins). Therefore, it is safe to say that Papsmear has caused an equal amount of damage as .... well .... fuck I'm not typing all those digits. Lets just say that if Papsmears terribleness had a fiscal value, it would be worth more than literally the entire Earth and everything on it and in it... and possibly Mars as well.

I tried to calculate HGs asshole levels but it crashed my computer.

There. Thats your feedback.

this is a perfect example.

of everything that is wrong with the feedback forum.

[cedarbridge]

But seriously you guys, saying shit like "let's just stop updating the server! that'll teach em!" isn't helping anyone's position.

Actually, that was a response to HG's very hamhanded "we're entirely separate" thing. If it were true at all, our refusal to update the server would affect them not a whit. Since it really would, they're the appendage allowed to think and say that its its own being. Saying it helps nobody's position is ignorant of what the position even was or is in the first place.

I will be that guy and say that if we did do so, the server would persist and the bus would not. Even then, the server would suffer minimally for it. We need the bug fixes almost as much as we need the "fixes" that introduce them.

[dezzmont]

But seriously you guys, saying shit like "let's just stop updating the server! that'll teach em!" isn't helping anyone's position.

Actually, that was a response to HG's very hamhanded "we're entirely separate" thing. If it were true at all, our refusal to update the server would affect them not a whit. Since it really would, they're the appendage allowed to think and say that its its own being. Saying it helps nobody's position is ignorant of what the position even was or is in the first place.

I will be that guy and say that if we did do so, the server would persist and the bus would not. Even then, the server would suffer minimally for it. We need the bug fixes almost as much as we need the "fixes" that introduce them.

The code is open source. It would be effortless for SoS to just make his own code base by copying everything and saying "If you want to code for /tg/ you work for me." It wouldn't be an ideal solution, but if enough people PM SoS he probably would do it. Anyone who has interacted with him to any degree knows how much he actually cares about what you guys think.

But yeah, in other ways I agree. Pretending the code team is some independant entity when they get to elect a headmin and when the server is the one providing a service to them, not the other way around, is absolutely bonkers.

[ColonicAcid]

But seriously you guys, saying shit like "let's just stop updating the server! that'll teach em!" isn't helping anyone's position.

Actually, that was a response to HG's very hamhanded "we're entirely separate" thing. If it were true at all, our refusal to update the server would affect them not a whit. Since it really would, they're the appendage allowed to think and say that its its own being. Saying it helps nobody's position is ignorant of what the position even was or is in the first place.

I will be that guy and say that if we did do so, the server would persist and the bus would not. Even then, the server would suffer minimally for it. We need the bug fixes almost as much as we need the "fixes" that introduce them.

Yeah, I think some maintainers and headcoders are in a illusion of the fact that /tg/ is the thing that keeps them afloat. Do you really think that people would continue to update /tgstation13/ after /tg/ stops using it? Yeah okay maybe for 1-2 months updates will continue, but they'll trickle down and stop entirely. They need to face the truth that 99% of active committers play on /tg/ and if /tg/ stopped updating they would stop committing, simple as that. Unfortunately that fact hasn't really penetrated their skulls yet and they still tell themselves that they couldn't give two shits if SoS pulls the plug on them.

Tl;dr: You're living a bloody dream if you think the playerbase would follow you to another server. No, we would just make another coderbase, simple as that, don't be such an entitled shit, I'm sure your parents taught you that much at least.

fuck mang who would've known bashing arrogant dickheads is such fun B))))))))

[dezzmont]

I know people often joke about how I write legit 3 page papers in response to SS13 stuff, but maybe go a bit beyond bashing.

I think the idea that coders have in their heads that people are just out to get them and insult them is mostly fictional when we control for cases when coders are being shitheads to players first, but this reaction makes the lie stronger.

[Loonikus]

this is a perfect example.

of everything that is wrong with the feedback forum.

Yup. HG already said he doesn't give a shit what our feedback says so why should I bother trying to appease them?

He doesn't take these threads seriously. Why should I? Why should I try to make constructive arguments when I'm just going to get told to fuck off? I hated old medbay as much as anyone else but even I know this change needs to be reverted until we get a better system coded.

Most people want a new system, but most people would have reverted what goonchem until we get the kinks worked out and generally make improvements before trying it again. Yet our headcoders have their heads shoved so far up their asses that they are completely unwilling to admit they made some mistakes. They've made that painfully clear.

So ya. If they don't give a shit about my feedback, I'm going to point out that they are literally worse than 8 Hitlers and that they probably have several dozen Aushwitzes hidden on the dark side of the moon.

[dezzmont]

this is a perfect example.

of everything that is wrong with the feedback forum.

Yup. HG already said he doesn't give a shit what our feedback says so why should I bother trying to appease them?

He gives quite a bit of a shit actually. He has been hovering in and out of this thread quite often, because he isn't an idiot. He understands that this could really blow up for him. It kind of already has because at least 1/3d of the headmins agree that his core point is incorrect and creating a shitty community, and SoS will side with the playerbase if push comes to shove.

the server is the one providing a service to them, not the other way around

While I am fully against self-proclaimed separation, this statement is just stupid.

Players serve coders by playing their code?

It is very clear value flows only one way in this relationship. HG said it himself, they don't owe us shit and have no responsibilities towards us. The server allows coders to treat it like a sandbox currently and in exchange really doesn't get anything it wouldn't get by taking control over our codebase.

[Malkevin]

We used to have a really large and healthy forum community on the old TLE forum, the major players of the game would also generally be the major posters on the forum - I wonder why things turned into the barren skeleton we have today?

[Miauw]

this is a perfect example.

of everything that is wrong with the feedback forum.

Yup. HG already said he doesn't give a shit what our feedback says so why should I bother trying to appease them?

that's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it?
i also haven't been active on the feedback forum in a while because i dont care about player opinion on pull requests i have nothing to do with, all it leads to is me in a circular argument with some other dude and headaches. coders don't give a shit because giving a shit just leads to headaches and frustration.

[mikecari]

I'm not saying your feelings are invalid, I'm just asking that you understand why nobody cares about what you have to say.

And yet HornyGranny was the one starting off with the namecalling first, but of course you choose to ignore that because coder bias.

Let's face it, you guys made some terrible changes with goonchem and you refuse to admit it because you're either too scared or too prideful.

[Xhuis]

-snip-

I think Goonchem is okay, but that's out of the point. I do agree that coderbus makes changes without players asking about it, which is why I made this thread. The least they could do with big changes is ask the players currently online "How would you feel about so-and-so" but only if it's a huge change (like Goonchem was). Minor changes are indeed up to the players to learn about themselves, but game-changers shouldn't be.

[cedarbridge]

I'm not saying your feelings are invalid, I'm just asking that you understand why nobody cares about what you have to say.

And yet HornyGranny was the one starting off with the namecalling first, but of course you choose to ignore that because coder bias.

Let's face it, you guys made some terrible changes with goonchem and you refuse to admit it because you're either too scared or too prideful.

There are two goonchem threads elsewhere. This is not that thread.

[Pennwick]

To be honest I've been trying to get into the code but haven't found the experince the least bit enjoyable. I noticed a little bug with goonchem addictions never going away and eventually killing you and tried to submit a issue and noted I'd fix it. Got a PR up fairly timly that would fix it and now I watch it fall lower and lower on the PR page. Is it because I don't have any past experince? I haven't even gotten a comment on code that should fix a moderate bug. None of the other goonchem things that have been merged appear to fix what happens so I'm a little sure what gives?

Then I see stuff like this commit that seems so all over the place and I don't even remeber seeing in on the PR it went through so quick. This code seems to not only affect adding stock to the medivends (Something I disagree with but thats not the full point.) but changes stuff involving new DNA mutations, buckling code, put suicide, and probably other things, none of which are mentioned in the commit's description.

This post is brought to you by a healthy dose of sodium chloride for my own little pr not getting merged but I feel my points are still valid.

[Perakp]

I do think there should be some form of more organized communication between coderbus (maintainers/headcoders or otherwise) and the playerbase, of what new cool big things are being worked on or explaining some of the more controversial changes in a concise manner, or asking players to give their opinion on some upcoming update. Like a behind the scenes post or github highlights page or something of the sort.

Players wanting to keep up with the dozens of weekly updates shouldn't be expected to search through each and every fix and tweak to find the relevant changes they would want to voice their opinion on. We have this tag system that marks pulls either fix, feature, sprite, map change or balance change, but when someone new comes to github to check the proposed new features or balance changes under discussion, searching for certain labels probably doesn't come first to mind.
And then lot of the descriptions on pull requests are coderjargon, there are discussions on both code quality and concept quality to dig through, and in the end you'd do better to be on irc at the right time if you'd really like to be heard. It's a mess.

So yeah, we don't necessarily need more communication, but better communication for things that actually matter, preferably from people that call the shots on those things.

[Turtle_unit]

I'm gonna put it very simply that HG/Paprika ignoring people is the reason i recently stopped playing on /tg/. Been on the server on and off since 2011 and just a damn shame to see huge egos ruin shit like this.

[Turtle_unit]

I'm gonna put it very simply that HG/Paprika ignoring people is the reason i recently stopped playing on /tg/. Been on the server on and off since 2011 and just a damn shame to see huge egos ruin shit like this.

Damn, there is a water leak in my bathroom.

I better abandon whole house cause it's unusable now

Nah its more like i seen all kinds of huge drama before on this server. Last time when we switched hosts was a chanche to revive the station but it got even worse somehow.

[lumipharon]

I'm gonna put it very simply that HG/Paprika ignoring people is the reason i recently stopped playing on /tg/. Been on the server on and off since 2011 and just a damn shame to see huge egos ruin shit like this.

Damn, there is a water leak in my bathroom.

I better abandon whole house cause it's unusable now

When that leak is sewerage spraying you in the face everytime you walk into the bathroom, some people can get pretty salty.

[Timbrewolf]

Sewerage doesn't even play here anymore.