Lack of player input on changes

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:16 am #61751

Bottom post of the previous page:

Sewerage doesn't even play here anymore.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:24 am #61755

>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

Gee I wonder why we don't change our winning formula of only accepting feedback from people who don't sound like complete brain-dead morons?

Inb4 'BUT UR ONLY ACCEPTING FEEDBACK U LIKE' which is so far from the truth. Most features go through a lot of changes before being accepted, and then continue to be changed. I wonder why that is? Nah, we don't care what the players think.

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:42 am #61761

Pennwick wrote:snip this commit Snip

Jesus fucking christ. Nanomeds are not supposed to be stationary medkits, they're a tool vendor for doctors. And if I'm not mistaken, wallmeds now have mobile crew monitors. Those things are already broken as fuck for antags finding targets, now anyone can have one?

And he adminned himself? Is this guy blowing someone to get his stuff committed?

I'll say it again, I'll say it a thousand times. Oversight and accountability. EVERY PR needs to be vetted, EVERY coder needs to be held accountable for being a shit, or we get a group of people who think they are cargonians OUTSIDE of the game.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:03 am #61772

i feel that if NTstation had survived longer and wasnt forced to be a competitor with coderbus, it could have been great
nevermind, though, that it was run by 3 people, 2 of which (including myself) were very novice coders and one of which is now a maintainer on tg itself
i still strongly believe that a direct democratic system for the codebase would make it much better for everyone involved and prevent the issue of forcing shitty changes onto a majority who does not want them.

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:21 am #61804

Snakebutt wrote:And he adminned himself? Is this guy blowing someone to get his stuff committed?

The admin.txt in on the github is not used on the game servers.

Coders add themselves to it if they plan on doing a lot of coding so that they don't have to keep re-adding themselves to their local test servers every time they re-download the code base to get the updated code from the other PRs

Tsaricide · Post by **Tsaricide** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:02 am #61809

paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

tg has been getting 100+ rounds for years now hg really has nothing to do with that. It all depends on the time of the day/year/where the server is advertised.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:12 am #61811

paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

Gee I wonder why we don't change our winning formula of only accepting feedback from people who don't sound like complete brain-dead morons?

Inb4 'BUT UR ONLY ACCEPTING FEEDBACK U LIKE' which is so far from the truth. Most features go through a lot of changes before being accepted, and then continue to be changed. I wonder why that is? Nah, we don't care what the players think.

Dude i saw 100 pop rounds multiple times in the past 2 years.

Do you have definitive proof HG is the cause for a rise in popularity? Do you have population statistics from the past 2 years proving that the games population rose after HG implemented new changes?

If you have no proof then get the fuck out

WeeYakk · Post by **WeeYakk** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:22 am #61812

Tsaricide wrote:
paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players
tg has been getting 100+ rounds for years now hg really has nothing to do with that. It all depends on the time of the day/year/where the server is advertised.

It's also that this game has more than quintupled in total players. If we go by players = good code as a metric then hippie, yog, and paradise are bees knees right now with 20-30 more players each.

"b-but muh public server listing!" /tg/ is advertised everywhere on top of other servers using our wiki and having buttons in-game that will link you to /tg/'s various sites. The server itself is not a well kept secret and the recent influx of BRs shows that not being on the public server list doesn't keep anyone out. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Pennwick · Post by **Pennwick** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:28 am #61814

MrStonedOne wrote:The admin.txt in on the github is not used on the game servers.

Coders add themselves to it if they plan on doing a lot of coding so that they don't have to keep re-adding themselves to their local test servers every time they re-download the code base to get the updated code from the other PRs

My mistake. I was unaware of how it worked. I removed that comment from my post. I didn't mean to incite anything over a false fact. The rest of my point still stands that this PR got merged much more quickly despite how it seems to be poorly documented what it does.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:51 am #61819

PR's with undocumented changes is actually a pretty major problem. I don't think (or atleast hope) coders don't do it intentionally, but evenwhen they just forget, it means things get merged without being detected or even known.
You can't expect people to scan all the code changes of every pr to look for undocumented changes.

An example of this was pap's stun overhaul. Looking at the code I saw a few odd things that didnt seem to be in the description/incorrect, namely that the e-bow got a 50% damage buff, an had I think 9 range instead of 7, and that (I think) the gyrojet got range limited also.
Not saying these were bad, simply that they weren't noticed by practically anyone.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:29 am #61822

lumipharon wrote:PR's with undocumented changes is actually a pretty major problem. I don't think (or atleast hope) coders don't do it intentionally, but evenwhen they just forget, it means things get merged without being detected or even known.
You can't expect people to scan all the code changes of every pr to look for undocumented changes.

An example of this was pap's stun overhaul. Looking at the code I saw a few odd things that didnt seem to be in the description/incorrect, namely that the e-bow got a 50% damage buff, an had I think 9 range instead of 7, and that (I think) the gyrojet got range limited also.
Not saying these were bad, simply that they weren't noticed by practically anyone.

>Nerfs gyrojet
>A gun that only exists in wizard round

I MEAN REALLY PAP?

mikecari · Post by **mikecari** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:48 am #61825

paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

Nice usage of strawman. You're literally the most one dimensional person I've ever seen. Are you still trying to blow HG so that you can become a maintainer?

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:53 am #61828

paprika wrote: Inb4 'BUT UR ONLY ACCEPTING FEEDBACK U LIKE' which is so far from the truth. Most features go through a lot of changes before being accepted, and then continue to be changed. I wonder why that is? Nah, we don't care what the players think.

The last time I commented heavily of a feature was when Mr.Person rolled out his Space Update. A near unanimous proclamation from the players outwardly hating the fact he nerfed space to the extent that it absolutely killed off an area from standard play from how bad it was. Despite all of it, he outwardly refused to change the movement speed back to originally what it was. As far as I know it still is in a terrible shape, from my POV it showed Mr.Person didn't care for what the players were saying or wanting, so yes you can say that some of the coders will no give a fuck about the players opinions on matters like that.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:19 am #61833

Then change it yourself

Didn't oranges like make a PR to revert most of the speed nerfs in space, and wasn't it accepted?

Jesus, this is how open source works. My PRs have NO MORE priority than anyone else's.

Hating on coders in an open source game because they don't do what you want is literally, and I mean literally, the dumbest thing you can do in this game. I make changes that I want to make. I don't work for the playerbase of /tg/. I have used feedback from the players on tons of my PRs to change them down the road or before they're even accepted.

And no, this isn't just me. Sure there's coders who only code what people want 100% of the time. But I code for fun to contribute to the codebase, that's it. Hornygranny has no bias towards me, and I barely fucking talk to him. It's honestly the biggest joke in #coderbus, players having these conspiracy theories about this shit. I'm pretty sure hornygranny and company don't necessarily care for goofball, but his chem PR got accepted. GEE, MUST BE CONSPIRACY, MUST BE HORNYGRANNY'S LITTLE BITCH, GOOD GOING GOOFBALL YOU DICKSUCKER!!!

Or maybe people who make PRs with code that work get accepted. If there's a conflict (see: my PR and ergo's) there's sometimes decisions to be made at a maintainer or headcoder level when it comes to figuring out which one will get accepted, but those are pretty rare.

Really though, if you don't like it, leave. To baystation, or /vg/station, WHICH HAVE LESS CONTRIBUTORS, ARE USUALLY CLOSED SOURCE, AND EVEN LESS OF A CHANCE OF YOUR OPINION ON FEATURES BEING HEARD.

I don't care for server warring but other servers are absolutely dog shit compared to /tg/. I used to think /tg/ was stupid and the coders were nazis but then I started coding. LOOK HOW MUCH SHIT SOMEONE WHO HAS BARELY CODED BEFORE SS13 HAS DONE. FUCKING DO SOMETHING IF YOU WANT THINGS CHANGED. JOIN THE GITHUB. GET INVOVLED. IT'S NOT ESPECIALLY HARD.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:53 am #61848

Violaceus wrote:
Turtle_unit wrote:I'm gonna put it very simply that HG/Paprika ignoring people is the reason i recently stopped playing on /tg/. Been on the server on and off since 2011 and just a damn shame to see huge egos ruin shit like this.
Damn, there is a water leak in my bathroom.

I better abandon whole house cause it's unusable now

Seeing something bad is sad. Seeing the bad thing accepted as "just how it is" by others is depressing.

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:00 am #61852

I have a question.

Whats the point of head coders in an open source project? What role do they fill that would not be better filled by a simple voting system of "gud change" or "bad change"?

In an ideal system, there would only be two kinds of people who code for /tg/code: Coders and Maintainers. Coders write code, and maintainers ensure the code meets quality standards AND HOLD IT TO NO OTHER STANDARDS ASIDE FROM THE OBJECTIVE QUALITY OF THE CODE. The coders code it, the maintainers greenlight it, and the code gets its own forum/github/in-game/whatever poll on whether to merge it or not. If the majority of voters vote yes, GG merge he posthaste. If no, its back to the drawing board. The host has veto power over all votes.

There, I just solved all coderbus drama forever. People who actually push good, new features or actually fix a fucking bug once in a while like Pennwick would have no problem pushing their stuff because its not shit. Meanwhile, people who want to make MASSIVE SWEEPING CHANGES will actually have to think carefully about what they are doing and somehow explain to people why this is a good idea without sperging out instead of cramming half baked ideas down everyones throat.

WeeYakk · Post by **WeeYakk** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:37 am #61884

paprika wrote:Then change it yourself

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6793
Tries to revert dirtstation and gets closed for being a revert.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5470
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5475
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5511
All trying to revert the dermal patch removal.

HG on git wrote:We're not accepting "revert" PRs for this change.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6954
Changes get reverted or put on hold because another coder is working on them. There are worse examples of this in particular but that's like 2 pages of skimmed search results. I'm not gonna bother linking anymore of this PROOF.PNG

So using the very unpopular goonchem as an example you have to learn how git works, learn how to code, go through and put everything connected to goonchem code (virus symptoms, genetics, cult runes for some reason apparently, etc) and make it connected to trek chem, all after waiting for goofball and co to finish their chem changes because your changes would interfere too much which piles even more work on a very inexperienced coder.

It's not as easy as "just change it".

paprika wrote:Didn't oranges like make a PR to revert most of the speed nerfs in space, and wasn't it accepted?

Space speed was unintentional. MrPerson even gave the changes his blessing in the PR. (https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6159)
Had they been an intentional change this would have never been merged for being too much of a kneejerk revert. This incident does highlight another problem with coders though: no one is held responsible for the problems their code causes.

paprika wrote:Really though, if you don't like it, leave. To baystation, or /vg/station, WHICH HAVE LESS CONTRIBUTORS, ARE USUALLY CLOSED SOURCE, AND EVEN LESS OF A CHANCE OF YOUR OPINION ON FEATURES BEING HEARD.

With the exception of less contributors, which isn't a bad thing, the opposite is true for all of those things you listed.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:27 am #61890

security sprite changes were a conflict between me and steelpoint, and cheridan said that invisible armor is crap. they reverts were butthurt flinch revert prs which are automatically closed. if a revert pr for goon chem was put up right now, it wouldn't be closed.

i'm sure quilty and goofball would complain a lot though.

Perakp · Post by **Perakp** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:07 am #61892

WeeYakk wrote:This incident does highlight another problem with coders though: no one is held responsible for the problems their code causes.

If you break something, and especially if you refuse to fix it afterwards, your future pull requests will be reviewed more closely. This is kinda a punishment since you'll have more conflicts to fix when your code eventually passes. Atleast I think this is what happens, although no maintainer will come up to you and say your code is being controlled more closely because of something you did previously, so you're never really sure what is going on. But it's completely understandable and fair for them to be more careful with you, and complaining that your pull request has been sitting there for x days now probably won't make it more likely to pass any sooner.
If you fail repeatedly you usually get off with a warning. I don't remember anyone who would've been banned solely because of their code contributions, it's always a mix of bad code + bad attitude that might get you banned.

On "obvious" problems that pass the review process; it is definitely a policy decision to keep game breaking/ unfinished changes in the game instead of reverting and asking for a new pull request when your work is more polished. But it's just so much more fun to have the whole community experience your bugs and playtest for you that a test server just wouldn't be the same.

callanrockslol · Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:14 pm

Lets just not pretend that there is going to be a decent ending with HG not trying to outdo Creed. At this point we really need to discuss just how much influence coderbus should have on the server. Personally I think there shouldn't be here if they don't want to be.

HG should be removed from headmin and any coder that is an admin with them.

If everyone stops being fucking retarded for a moment and realizes that yes, THIS IS ONE BIG FUCKING COMMUNITY AND WE SHOULD STOP PRETENDING THAT THERE IS ANY REAL SEPARATION ASIDE FROM EGOS, then we might actually be able to do something positive. Like write up magic procedures and shit that could help manage reverts and stopping powermad dictators from declaring independence from YOU ARE NOT CARGO STOP IT.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:08 pm #61959

Bombadil wrote:
paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

Gee I wonder why we don't change our winning formula of only accepting feedback from people who don't sound like complete brain-dead morons?

Inb4 'BUT UR ONLY ACCEPTING FEEDBACK U LIKE' which is so far from the truth. Most features go through a lot of changes before being accepted, and then continue to be changed. I wonder why that is? Nah, we don't care what the players think.
Dude i saw 100 pop rounds multiple times in the past 2 years.

Do you have definitive proof HG is the cause for a rise in popularity? Do you have population statistics from the past 2 years proving that the games population rose after HG implemented new changes?

If you have no proof then get the fuck out

do you have definitive proof that hg is killing the codebase? if you have no proof then get the fuck out.

miggles wrote: i still strongly believe that a direct democratic system for the codebase would make it much better for everyone involved and prevent the issue of forcing shitty changes onto a majority who does not want them.

it would just make sure that the 5% of people who play that actually go on the forums can vote against anything they don't like the sound of and prevent anything from being done ever again.
a lot of people like runspeed now, but with a direct democracy it would not have gotten in and there would still have been bullshit yakkety sax. (and probably dozens of other crutch changes)
there's already too much politicking involved in this game, let's please not make it any worse.
if you're going to suggest that players elect headcoders, please refer to the last time that was brought up and my arguments in the thread, which are basically "that would get shitcoders who only make features elected rather than goodcoders that fix bugs and refactor shit and doesnt afraid of anything".

also fyi i'm apparently an admin on the server but i'm never going to use that except for debugging because i'm sure i'd get caught in some sort of dumb drama-filled admin complaint thread.

also i sort of agree with callan for once.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:18 pm #61964

Miauw wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

Gee I wonder why we don't change our winning formula of only accepting feedback from people who don't sound like complete brain-dead morons?

Inb4 'BUT UR ONLY ACCEPTING FEEDBACK U LIKE' which is so far from the truth. Most features go through a lot of changes before being accepted, and then continue to be changed. I wonder why that is? Nah, we don't care what the players think.
Dude i saw 100 pop rounds multiple times in the past 2 years.

Do you have definitive proof HG is the cause for a rise in popularity? Do you have population statistics from the past 2 years proving that the games population rose after HG implemented new changes?

If you have no proof then get the fuck out
do you have definitive proof that hg is killing the codebase? if you have no proof then get the fuck out.

I never said hornygranny was killing coderbase.

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:19 pm #61965

Miauw wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

Gee I wonder why we don't change our winning formula of only accepting feedback from people who don't sound like complete brain-dead morons?

Inb4 'BUT UR ONLY ACCEPTING FEEDBACK U LIKE' which is so far from the truth. Most features go through a lot of changes before being accepted, and then continue to be changed. I wonder why that is? Nah, we don't care what the players think.
Dude i saw 100 pop rounds multiple times in the past 2 years.

Do you have definitive proof HG is the cause for a rise in popularity? Do you have population statistics from the past 2 years proving that the games population rose after HG implemented new changes?

If you have no proof then get the fuck out
do you have definitive proof that hg is killing the codebase? if you have no proof then get the fuck out.

Where did he suggest that?

I'll take more assumptions at 10.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:38 pm #61980

ColonicAcid wrote:
Miauw wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
paprika wrote:>player pop has grown dramatically since HG has been put in power
>all of these hated features have attracted more and more new players

Gee I wonder why we don't change our winning formula of only accepting feedback from people who don't sound like complete brain-dead morons?

Inb4 'BUT UR ONLY ACCEPTING FEEDBACK U LIKE' which is so far from the truth. Most features go through a lot of changes before being accepted, and then continue to be changed. I wonder why that is? Nah, we don't care what the players think.
Dude i saw 100 pop rounds multiple times in the past 2 years.

Do you have definitive proof HG is the cause for a rise in popularity? Do you have population statistics from the past 2 years proving that the games population rose after HG implemented new changes?

If you have no proof then get the fuck out
do you have definitive proof that hg is killing the codebase? if you have no proof then get the fuck out.
Where did he suggest that?

I'll take more assumptions at 10.

The coders must defend their god even from no one attacking him. Most are attacking Paprika and goofball anyway. Most are pissed HG is saying coderbus and tg are seperate entities

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:55 pm #61988

i ment server, my bad.

Post by **Jacquerel** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:07 pm #61993

It's still irrelevant Miauw, Bombadil was saying that Paprka's claims were bullshit, not trying to argue the most extreme opposite.
At no point in this thread has Bombadil claimed that Hornygranny was killing the codebase, the server, the playerbase, the president, this fine nation of the united states of america, or anything else.

He was rebutting the post he directly quoted and replied to.
As much as I hate when people just start throwing around the names of logical fallacies, your posts are just coming off as the most blatant and unconvincing textbook strawman argument. It might be because they actually are, or merely just because for some reason you've misread his posts in an extreme manner, but you should probably try and stop doing it if you want to be taken seriously.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:20 pm #62001

oh ffs i somehow thought that bombadil and turtle_unit were the same person.
my bad, i was being a huge dumbass.
it's hard to keep track of people without avatars in a huge shitstorm like this.

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:31 pm #62003

I think we're all getting a little too worked up with all this. Lets just take a minute and get back to the topic of the thread: a "lack" of player feedback.

I have an idea. An actual idea that can actually be implemented and would actually help fix this problem. Simply add an in-game poll that has three checkmarks: The game is getting better or The game is getting worse or The games quality remains consistent. The poll is closed and reset after every server update. The poll opens back up five rounds after every update to ensure players actually experience changes before voting. Votes can be changes so long as the poll is open in case players change their mind.

By using this system, we could chart the popularity of each update at a basic level. This is basic feedback that every player would have access to. If people want to suggest alternatives or give more detailed feedback, thats what the forum is for. At least this way we could get an idea of where each update stands.

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:55 pm #62020

Only problem is no one seems to pay attention to polls either. If we got a 75% dislike on an update and it HAS to be reverted, that would be something. As we've seen on the forums, polls do nothing, see: Secsprite, goonchem

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:02 pm #62023

So what still eludes me is that HG is delusional enough to REALLY honestly think that Coderbus is a 100% seperate entity from /tg/station

The vast majority of contributors are /tg/station players who contribute because they want these things on /tg/station

iirc headcoder is a player elect role voted for... Where?

It's fucking stupid and people like HG need to realize that if we were to make our own branch STATED to be specifically for /tg/ and announce we would no longer be using the bus version, literally everyone would flock to the new one without a second thought.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:19 pm #62028

Cecily wrote:So what still eludes me is that HG is delusional enough to REALLY honestly think that Coderbus is a 100% seperate entity from /tg/station

The vast majority of contributors are /tg/station players who contribute because they want these things on /tg/station

iirc headcoder is a player elect role voted for... Where?

It's fucking stupid and people like HG need to realize that if we were to make our own branch STATED to be specifically for /tg/ and announce we would no longer be using the bus version, literally everyone would flock to the new one without a second thought.

Hell if tehy are seperate entities we should remove HG's headmin status what with HG being a head coder it results in a conflict of interest after all the code they are making is supposed to be for all servers. HG beinga headmin causes a conflict of interest where HG may work to code stuff for /tg/ station more than other servers. So i think we should deheadmin HG and make sure coderbus is a seperate entity you know because that's what HG says is the truth

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:37 pm #62032

Snakebutt wrote:Only problem is no one seems to pay attention to polls either. If we got a 75% dislike on an update and it HAS to be reverted, that would be something. As we've seen on the forums, polls do nothing, see: Secsprite, goonchem

And thus the issue comes full circle. Coders want more feedback it seems, but the only coders who ultimately matter when it comes to major changes don't care about feedback no matter what form it comes in.

Which leaves us here, with everyone venting their frustration because we are told to both leave our feedback and that our feedback is wrong.

I say a verbal roundtable is in order, but I also think the path forward is clear. The whole github and coderbus system could be much smoother, but the people in charge of it are obviously becoming a greater liability to the project than an asset. I think some of our current headcoders would do much better outside of an administrative role.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:46 pm #62035

headcoders dont decide literally everything, no matter how ignorant you are.
polls are shit feedback, because they only tell you "this sucks" instead of what is wrong with it and anyway, only a small amount of the players ever goes to the forums.

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:53 pm #62039

Just look at the goonchem feedback thread. Plenty of actual worded feedback on top of 'This is bad and you should feel bad', and the approval rating on par with the last 3 presidents. Polls are a decent way to get the broad opinion of a large population, the forum is a good way to get specific grievances and detailed feedback. It's just too bad the coders disregard 90% of it apart from the mentions of bugs.

AnonymousNow · Post by **AnonymousNow** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:56 pm #62040

And oh my god, how are we supposed to get anything changed if we don't like it if the terms start at "more feedback" and the goalposts keep moving around places we've already covered, eventually to find somewhere off the field we can't reach?

420weedscopes · Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:13 pm

Violaceus wrote:Perfect example of how coder should act is Steelpoint, he was carefully listening to opinions, managed to achieve consensus about security sprites and is polite.

please note that steelpoint is never in #coderbus. just super saiyan.

soulgamer · Post by **soulgamer** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:16 pm #62044

Miauw wrote:headcoders dont decide literally everything, no matter how ignorant you are.
polls are shit feedback, because they only tell you "this sucks" instead of what is wrong with it and anyway, only a small amount of the players ever goes to the forums.

>Only a small amount of players goes to the forums
>HG and other coders tell us to go to github where even less people go
So we can go there explain our points and get told our opinions dont matter because "we dont represent enough players"? Seriously what do you want from us? Stick up a fucking lobby poll and see how unpopular this fucking change is. Oh wait only coders can really do that and the coders don't want to interfere...

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:27 pm #62046

Miauw wrote:headcoders dont decide literally everything, no matter how ignorant you are.

Loonikus wrote: And thus the issue comes full circle. Coders want more feedback it seems, but the only coders who ultimately matter when it comes to major changes don't care about feedback no matter what form it comes in.

Head coders don't decide everything, just the things that effect players the most. This gives them a proportional amount of importance which in turn puts them under a proportional amount of scrutiny.

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:38 pm #62051

420weedscopes wrote:
Violaceus wrote:Perfect example of how coder should act is Steelpoint, he was carefully listening to opinions, managed to achieve consensus about security sprites and is polite.
please note that steelpoint is never in #coderbus. just super saiyan.

You don't need to be as the coders keep spouting out over and over again.
Good to see that atleast they can keep that much of their word.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:59 pm #62055

420weedscopes wrote:
Violaceus wrote:Perfect example of how coder should act is Steelpoint, he was carefully listening to opinions, managed to achieve consensus about security sprites and is polite.
please note that steelpoint is never in #coderbus. just super saiyan.

He explicitly doesn't do so because he finds the enviroment toxic as shit and hates everything about being there.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:47 pm #62086

Further proof that Steelpoint > coderbus.

Jalleo · Post by **Jalleo** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:09 am #62108

I am literally only going to say these things then be out.
The amount of people coding and PRing for tg has gone higher than ever. Some just pure bugfix.
We as a whole tg group (there is no such thing as seperate coders just them primarily workingon the edge) are accelerating more and more we have done great things at making the game faster and do more interesting things in our own way.
Everyone plays this game differently but when some people claim beepsky smash was a part of goonchem I see how we are still at the same place a few years ago.

This entire mess of a feedback is due to the ease of discussion for actual coding on IRC and the ease of non coders to discuss in depth stuff on the forums. Just stop get a irc client and lurk on #coderbus for a few weeks listening to how everyone there tries to make the game better their OWN way. We have gone in a cycle of coder conspiracy talk to admin conspiracy talk to the former again. Sorry to break it to you but a group of people who work together need a leader. OUR true overlord is SoS. HG just tries to help make sure we got enough prs getting merged. There used to be worries about 30 prs open. Its now getting to 60. At least 333 PRs got merged this month alone.

The true issue is not this its that soon we may have a burn out of maintainers merging PRs. We are heading somewhere of ehich github will become as non optimal to us as SVN did. The interaction is starting to break down slowly yet dramatically. There is nothing more to say.

Alex Crimson · Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:21 am

Asking people to join IRC is fucking terrible. You think people who play SS13 all have the time to spend sitting in a chatroom reading logs just to keep up-to-date on a game they play? Unless IRC has some amazing new archive system since the last time i used it, i think its better to keep discussion on the forum or github.

Yeah IRC is great for realtime chatting, but not for keeping logs of discussion or planning the future of the game.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:41 am #62121

Coders who don't join #coderbus then complain are literally the biggest of crybabies.

I mean, if I can deal with oranges, you can too.

AnonymousNow · Post by **AnonymousNow** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:00 am #62126

I dunno... I feel like we're told to post more on the forums, and then when we're doing that, we're told to post more on the Git, and then when some of us are on the Git commenting on PRs (and occasionally getting said comments wiped), we're told to go to the place which has had a reputation of being a clubhouse during the entire time I've been here...

Post by **MisterPerson** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:12 am #62127

Alex Crimson wrote:Asking people to join IRC is fucking terrible. You think people who play SS13 all have the time to spend sitting in a chatroom reading logs just to keep up-to-date on a game they play? Unless IRC has some amazing new archive system since the last time i used it, i think its better to keep discussion on the forum or github.

Yeah IRC is great for realtime chatting, but not for keeping logs of discussion or planning the future of the game.

I think you're underestimating the gains from real-time chatting. You are correct that it's a poor place to plan long term goals though. Of course there really isn't a great place to do that anyway. Ideally it would be the forums but nobody makes threads like that.

AnonymousNow wrote:I dunno... I feel like we're told to post more on the forums, and then when we're doing that, we're told to post more on the Git, and then when some of us are on the Git commenting on PRs (and occasionally getting said comments wiped), we're told to go to the place which has had a reputation of being a clubhouse during the entire time I've been here...

This sentence exists purely because empty quotes aren't allowed because if I was allowed to empty quote, I would be doing so right now.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:13 am #62128

Miauw wrote:
miggles wrote: i still strongly believe that a direct democratic system for the codebase would make it much better for everyone involved and prevent the issue of forcing shitty changes onto a majority who does not want them.
it would just make sure that the 5% of people who play that actually go on the forums can vote against anything they don't like the sound of and prevent anything from being done ever again.
a lot of people like runspeed now, but with a direct democracy it would not have gotten in and there would still have been bullshit yakkety sax. (and probably dozens of other crutch changes)
there's already too much politicking involved in this game, let's please not make it any worse.
if you're going to suggest that players elect headcoders, please refer to the last time that was brought up and my arguments in the thread, which are basically "that would get shitcoders who only make features elected rather than goodcoders that fix bugs and refactor shit and doesnt afraid of anything".

when people dont go to the forums its not the fault of anyone but themselves.
if you want to be involved, be involved. its not like going to the voting office to elect the president. you cant be ineligible to vote. people who dont give input are non-voters, not ineligibles.
what are more examples of things that were changed for the better but originally had a huge backlash? i personally dont care for the runspeed change either way, im fine with sanic and the current speed. i know that the recent stun change still isnt accepted by a lot of people. goonchem is getting a huge backlash too, and i truly dont think it will end up being "better after all" like runspeed.
taking in feedback isn't politicking either. it doesnt have to be polls-only, and if you had ever read the rules for NTStation, you'd know that written feedback was weighted as more important than just numbers. all it does is prevent all the needless drama that coders bring onto themselves.
player elected headcoders are a bad idea. HBL is a living example of what happens when players vote in power. though almost every system of giving power to headcoders has lead to bad headcoders, so i dont know what to say. at best i would suggest a 3rd party, like that one guy on bay used to be, who could pull bad maintainers out if need be.

of course we know none of this is going to happen ever and the HORRIBLE EVIL CODERBUS ILLUMINATI WILL SHIT ON EVERYTHING FOR THE REST OF ETERNITY OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:27 am #62132

Miauw wrote:polls are shit feedback, because they only tell you "this sucks" instead of what is wrong with it and anyway, only a small amount of the players ever goes to the forums.

To literally anyone who isn't personally interested in whatever the addition is, its perfectly fine feedback. If something is awful and unwanted. Its just that, awful and unwanted. Nobody except the personally interested coder cares about fixing it to make it less awful or changing it to fit some vague standard. If it is unwanted it shouldn't be on the server. Full stop. The malarky about "this is crappy feedback because it just says something is bad" is silly. Its also never the case that the only feedback is "omg this sucks kill yourself." Coders would rather argue about and defend their baby code projects than remove them when they're told the thing they added isn't good. That's the sort of shit that's gotta stop. This is another of those cases where "you can just code it yourself!" falls apart too since I can remember several cases where unwanted changes were forced through and revert PRs were instantly closed for daring to be revert PRs.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:38 am #62136

Participating in the forum shouldn't be required for your input on the codebase to be heard

Being on github or IRC though, should be

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:08 am #62140

Miauw wrote:coders don't give a shit because giving a shit just leads to headaches and frustration.

This is ultimately the cause of all these issues.

Firing pin thread:
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2502

Coder specifically asks people to please read it all, and gives specific talking points. People disregard reading, think that he's trying to take away all non-security guns. Thread derails into discussion of voicechangers. Coder gets harassed about "removing guns" in OOC for the next few days. Gets frustrated, mutes OOC. People whine to host about power abuse.

For another example? Try THIS WHOLE THREAD. Most of these angry replies are in response to HG's reply on page 1. It's better for us if we never interact with the community at all, because everything we say is going to get picked apart and used as more ammo in the CODERS SUCK war. This is coming from someone who used to be one of the most pro-community devs around. I haven't interacted with the forums as much lately, and why? Because these days, doing so makes me want to die.

cedarbridge wrote: [polls are] perfectly fine feedback.

They're shit. They're not representative of the community, only the people who see them. They're very VERY open to manipulation -- we've already had cases of coders shilling their PRs in OOC to stir up drama later when they're closed for having bad code. Cue this happening FOR EVERY PULL REQUEST EVER, as every code change becomes a political campaign.

The best method is the current method. My changeling update wasn't very well received. Eventually, it was changed by someone else to incorporate more 'oldling' features. Ergovisavi's mining update was the same way. Over time, things got ironed out and improved to a level to make everyone happy. But this shit HAPPENS OVER TIME, if we just fully reverted everything that everyone didn't like immediately then we would have lost the improvements that those updates added.

cedarbridge wrote: revert PRs were instantly closed for daring to be revert PRs.

ALL REVERTS ARE TO BE DISCUSSED BEFOREHAND. Any kneejerk revert made just to spite the work of the original coder is going to be closed immediately. They're just digital middle-fingers to the whole group.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:53 am #62182

Cheridan wrote:For another example? Try THIS WHOLE THREAD. Most of these angry replies are in response to HG's reply on page 1. It's better for us if we never interact with the community at all, because everything we say is going to get picked apart and used as more ammo in the CODERS SUCK war. This is coming from someone who used to be one of the most pro-community devs around. I haven't interacted with the forums as much lately, and why? Because these days, doing so makes me want to die.

This is a misrepresentation of the thread. There is plenty of genuine feedback here that is neither angry nor "ammo in the CODERS SUCK war." I know because I have provided some of it and read the replies to it. And I am sorry that you do not enjoy reading the forums, but on the hand, that is literally the definition of disconnecting yourself from the community, including things like what is actually said in threads.

Cheridan wrote:The best method is the current method. My changeling update wasn't very well received. Eventually, it was changed by someone else to incorporate more 'oldling' features. Ergovisavi's mining update was the same way. Over time, things got ironed out and improved to a level to make everyone happy. But this shit HAPPENS OVER TIME, if we just fully reverted everything that everyone didn't like immediately then we would have lost the improvements that those updates added.

Some people would disagree, arguing that such incremental adjustments to major features are less a way to fine-tune it and more a way to take something broken and tweak and break little things until it is both broken and unrecognizable. Mining happened to be a case where it worked. A lot of people would argue, given the consistent unpopularity of changeling rounds, that changeling (much like cult) is a case where it didn't.