@StickyMayhem, AI policy

[Itseasytosee2me]

Thoughts on the headmin ruling?

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31293&p=636481#p636481

[Nabski]

This is a bad title.

I'm assuming you mean the AI related one, and they only answered about purged and didn't say anything about asimov AIs which is disappointing.

[Bawhoppennn]

I'd love to know Sticky's thoughts on all headmin rulings

Maybe they could set up a blog

[Itseasytosee2me]

This is a bad title.

I'm assuming you mean the AI related one, and they only answered about purged and didn't say anything about asimov AIs which is disappointing.

This thread is directed at sticky. Perhaps a "Purged AI policynut" would have been a more broad topic, but that is not the purpose of this thread.

[Kendrickorium]

what happened with purged ai's?

[Itseasytosee2me]

what happened with purged ai's?

Nothing. But It is now not allowed to purge AIs without following up with laws (Citation needed) .

An odd choice that solves the problem of having too much policy by adding more.

[Pandarsenic]

I apparently missed this alleged golden age of "purge the Ai and then just chill" where it happened regularly, if it's not like a lot of policy scares that are about fabricated problems that don't actually happen.

[Kendrickorium]

that sounds kind of silly wouldnt it just be easier to just get the word out more than purged ai's are to be treated like crew?

[mstachife]

I apparently missed this alleged golden age of "purge the Ai and then just chill" where it happened regularly, if it's not like a lot of policy scares that are about fabricated problems that don't actually happen.

I've had it happen a lot to me, not much recently since this discussion seems to have started anew. I would love to be wrong but I'm concerned this is going to limit a lot of interesting interactions that could've happened otherwise.

[sinfulbliss]

Kind of weird ruling, purging without replacing their laws is now rulebreaking? I highly doubt people who don't check forums will have any idea it's wrong to purge an AI.

[Ryusenshu]

During a revolution,
As a heretic i purged a unsynced borg, so they might help me out and get my mindshield removed, cause i didnt wanna die to a lynch mob

Would need to upload a Law that they are thankful for being free now , i guess

[Stickymayhem]

I spent like an hour complaining about this ruling last night in adminbus. This will be a return to tradition, coresticky style post where I shit on headmins in a stream of consciousness "I was right" rant, and use a totally gratuitious analogy to systemic racism against black people so I can shove politics into it.

This policy makes no sense and it was a terrible decision. In fact, it is such a spectacularly misguided bandaid on an actual systemic problem that only a fucking liberal could have devised it. It is the purest form of a solution that desperately seeks to avoid analyzing the true nature of the problem. Many people disagree with my thesis that silicons have not been utterly neutered by silicon policy (Which I'll begin referring to as an "OOC Lawset" because that makes my point better) to the point that they are essentially unplayable by the kinds of people who offered the station the best silicon experiences. It is a common phenomenon in a round as an AI to reach the point where the harm to humans is so great you're obligated by your IC laws to stop it on a wider scale, but obligated by your OOC Lawset not to be annoying enough to the crew to generate complaints, so you're paralyzed by an inability to do anything, a terribly frustrating and unfulfilling experience where you either complain on the common channel while everyone ignores you, or take your hands off the keyboard and afk until the gamestate resets back to a manageable level of harm.

But this policy proves my point perfectly. Our OOC lawset is so fucking restrictive, and the assumption that a totally purged AI (Supposedly neutral) is MORE CREW FRIENDLY THAN ASIMOV OR CREWSIMOV is so widely-known, that the headmins had to step in and say "It is illegal act ICly as if we've ruined silicon policy to the extent that they are OOCly your subordinate, crewfriendly validbot". I don't want to get bogged down in 'original intent', but the game needs a balancing faction to restrict the violence available to people ICly. Security is too good a force at stopping antagonists without some kind of restrictions. Currently we somewhat restrict their ability to use that force, or random search, some other small OOC things like that to try to temper their ability to shut down the vast majority of antagonists if they want to. But we used to have a balancing mechanism in the game: The silicons. If security used harmful methods (which are more effective) then they lose the backing of the omniscient unstunnable robots and may even come into direct conflict with them, making their life harder. If security stay non-violent, they're fighting with one arm behind their back but at least have the silicons onside. But the most appealing, complex and ROLEPLAY producing option is for security to use violence sporadically, in secret, wherever necessary and no further. This leaves opportunity for mistakes, for subterfuge, for a facade between security and the silicons, creating a tension in every single round regardless of other outcomes, that doesn't result in anyone's destruction but can be a meaningful contribution to roleplay. This is BUILT IN TO THE FUCKING MAP with the cameraless execution chamber, again, not relying on original intent to make my point here but clearly this was thought about in the past. I never see people executed in the execution chamber anymore because they don't need to be. They get beaten to death under cameras and the AI can do nothing but cry on common for 2 minutes before being obligated to go back to validhunting.

Back to FUCKING liberalism, liberals are cursed with an absence of sociological imagination, they cannot solve systemic problems because they would no longer be liberals if they understood the abstracted harms at the heart of their system they would either accept them and become some kind of neocon, or become socialists in trying to remove them. Liberals acknowledge racism is a thing that happened and still happens, but they cannot acknowledge that the systems of power they have in place are racist. So what do they do? Affirmative fucking action. Let's just do opposite racism to push an equivalent number of minorities up to the same level as the oppressive white hegemony and everything will be solved forever! Except it doesn't fucking work, these bandaids just cause more problems to increasingly strange effect. This is what has been happening to silicon policy for four years. Every headmin decision has essentially followed the framework of "Pick the option that makes silicon less annoying to the crew" resulting in a totally neutered role with little scope for creativity or impact, and I think this is the heart of the issues we've had with validhunting and powergaming. The restricting factor on violence used to be the silicons, but they can't do this effectively anymore, so now the tools available in game are the limit rather than another faction holding a tense line and variable line against acceptable violence.

TL;DR: The ruling demonstrates that AIs are OOCly obligated to be the crews bitch to such a severe extent that it is now against the rules to purge them to put the into this ideal crew-friendly neutral state and liberalism is cringe.

[Stickymayhem]

God I fucking hate liberals so fucking much

[BONERMASTER]

God I fucking hate liberals so fucking much

But Sticky, aren't you a liberal yourself though?


With curious regards
-BONERMASTER

[Pandarsenic]

It is a common phenomenon in a round as an AI to reach the point where the harm to humans is so great you're obligated by your IC laws to stop it on a wider scale, but obligated by your OOC Lawset not to be annoying enough to the crew to generate complaints, so you're paralyzed by an inability to do anything, a terribly frustrating and unfulfilling experience where you either complain on the common channel while everyone ignores you, or take your hands off the keyboard and afk until the gamestate resets back to a manageable level of harm.

But we used to have a balancing mechanism in the game: The silicons. If security used harmful methods (which are more effective) then they lose the backing of the omniscient unstunnable robots and may even come into direct conflict with them, making their life harder. If security stay non-violent, they're fighting with one arm behind their back but at least have the silicons onside. But the most appealing, complex and ROLEPLAY producing option is for security to use violence sporadically, in secret, wherever necessary and no further. This leaves opportunity for mistakes, for subterfuge, for a facade between security and the silicons, creating a tension in every single round regardless of other outcomes, that doesn't result in anyone's destruction but can be a meaningful contribution to roleplay. This is BUILT IN TO THE FUCKING MAP with the cameraless execution chamber, again, not relying on original intent to make my point here but clearly this was thought about in the past. I never see people executed in the execution chamber anymore because they don't need to be. They get beaten to death under cameras and the AI can do nothing but cry on common for 2 minutes before being obligated to go back to validhunting.

idk if this will surprise anyone, but I feel like this is about spot-on. If security is determined to be continuously harmful, you just gotta lock them down and slam the shuttle call in proportion to their dedication to being assholes.

You shouldn't be fucking the crew over for no reason, but what people seem to forget is your laws are all the reason you need. Validhunting is the lowest form of scum AI.

[Stickymayhem]

God I fucking hate liberals so fucking much

But Sticky, aren't you a liberal yourself though?


With curious regards
-BONERMASTER

What no polcon does to a mfer

[Nabski]

This rant was making sense as long as he was talking about game things, then it went off the rails.

[Farquaar]

This rant was making sense as long as he was talking about game things, then it went off the rails.

The Boris quote in Sticky's signature is ever-relevant. But Sticky being a smoothbrained commie doesn't mean his AI takes aren't 100% valid.

[Nabski]

I have signatures turned off because some people make theirs too long.

[Stickymayhem]

This rant was making sense as long as he was talking about game things, then it went off the rails.

The mental gymnastics it takes for you to understand the nuanced impact of systemic issues on behaviour and culture only when they pertain to a 2d space video game are fascinating

"This all made total logical sense up until the second it contradicted Benji Shapipo"

[Nabski]

This rant was making sense as long as he was talking about game things, then it went off the rails.

The mental gymnastics it takes for you to understand the nuanced impact of systemic issues on behaviour and culture only when they pertain to a 2d space video game are fascinating

"This all made total logical sense up until the second it contradicted Benji Shapipo"

Oh god he is one radio station up from what I normally listen to on my commute home after work and it's always the most smoothbrained takes on EVERYTHING.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Don't know what I expected.

[Kendrickorium]

redeeming qualities

[kieth4]

I spent like an hour complaining about this ruling last night in adminbus. This will be a return to tradition, coresticky style post where I shit on headmins in a stream of consciousness "I was right" rant, and use a totally gratuitious analogy to systemic racism against black people so I can shove politics into it.

This policy makes no sense and it was a terrible decision. In fact, it is such a spectacularly misguided bandaid on an actual systemic problem that only a fucking liberal could have devised it. It is the purest form of a solution that desperately seeks to avoid analyzing the true nature of the problem. Many people disagree with my thesis that silicons have not been utterly neutered by silicon policy (Which I'll begin referring to as an "OOC Lawset" because that makes my point better) to the point that they are essentially unplayable by the kinds of people who offered the station the best silicon experiences. It is a common phenomenon in a round as an AI to reach the point where the harm to humans is so great you're obligated by your IC laws to stop it on a wider scale, but obligated by your OOC Lawset not to be annoying enough to the crew to generate complaints, so you're paralyzed by an inability to do anything, a terribly frustrating and unfulfilling experience where you either complain on the common channel while everyone ignores you, or take your hands off the keyboard and afk until the gamestate resets back to a manageable level of harm.

But this policy proves my point perfectly. Our OOC lawset is so fucking restrictive, and the assumption that a totally purged AI (Supposedly neutral) is MORE CREW FRIENDLY THAN ASIMOV OR CREWSIMOV is so widely-known, that the headmins had to step in and say "It is illegal act ICly as if we've ruined silicon policy to the extent that they are OOCly your subordinate, crewfriendly validbot". I don't want to get bogged down in 'original intent', but the game needs a balancing faction to restrict the violence available to people ICly. Security is too good a force at stopping antagonists without some kind of restrictions. Currently we somewhat restrict their ability to use that force, or random search, some other small OOC things like that to try to temper their ability to shut down the vast majority of antagonists if they want to. But we used to have a balancing mechanism in the game: The silicons. If security used harmful methods (which are more effective) then they lose the backing of the omniscient unstunnable robots and may even come into direct conflict with them, making their life harder. If security stay non-violent, they're fighting with one arm behind their back but at least have the silicons onside. But the most appealing, complex and ROLEPLAY producing option is for security to use violence sporadically, in secret, wherever necessary and no further. This leaves opportunity for mistakes, for subterfuge, for a facade between security and the silicons, creating a tension in every single round regardless of other outcomes, that doesn't result in anyone's destruction but can be a meaningful contribution to roleplay. This is BUILT IN TO THE FUCKING MAP with the cameraless execution chamber, again, not relying on original intent to make my point here but clearly this was thought about in the past. I never see people executed in the execution chamber anymore because they don't need to be. They get beaten to death under cameras and the AI can do nothing but cry on common for 2 minutes before being obligated to go back to validhunting.

Back to FUCKING liberalism, liberals are cursed with an absence of sociological imagination, they cannot solve systemic problems because they would no longer be liberals if they understood the abstracted harms at the heart of their system they would either accept them and become some kind of neocon, or become socialists in trying to remove them. Liberals acknowledge racism is a thing that happened and still happens, but they cannot acknowledge that the systems of power they have in place are racist. So what do they do? Affirmative fucking action. Let's just do opposite racism to push an equivalent number of minorities up to the same level as the oppressive white hegemony and everything will be solved forever! Except it doesn't fucking work, these bandaids just cause more problems to increasingly strange effect. This is what has been happening to silicon policy for four years. Every headmin decision has essentially followed the framework of "Pick the option that makes silicon less annoying to the crew" resulting in a totally neutered role with little scope for creativity or impact, and I think this is the heart of the issues we've had with validhunting and powergaming. The restricting factor on violence used to be the silicons, but they can't do this effectively anymore, so now the tools available in game are the limit rather than another faction holding a tense line and variable line against acceptable violence.

TL;DR: The ruling demonstrates that AIs are OOCly obligated to be the crews bitch to such a severe extent that it is now against the rules to purge them to put the into this ideal crew-friendly neutral state and liberalism is cringe.

Good take I love sticky now wtf

[Annihilite111]

If sticky gets to be communist in players club does that mean i get to be racist?

[Farquaar]

If sticky gets to be communist in players club does that mean i get to be racist?

Why not be both?

[BONERMASTER]

communists club OMEGALUL


With hilarious regards
-BONERMASTER

[Pandarsenic]

Good take I love sticky now wtf

[Timonk]

What happens if ai gets purged then immediately throws out the purgee, who is metagaming in that case?

[Stickymayhem]

What happens if ai gets purged then immediately throws out the purgee, who is metagaming in that case?

Then you fucked up the indiana jones idol swap and freed a vengeful silicon god from it's shackles

[sinfulbliss]

the game needs a balancing faction to restrict the violence available to people ICly. Security is too good a force at stopping antagonists without some kind of restrictions. Currently we somewhat restrict their ability to use that force, or random search, some other small OOC things like that to try to temper their ability to shut down the vast majority of antagonists if they want to. But we used to have a balancing mechanism in the game: The silicons.

Sticky, pal, friend, buddy. This is not some overarching structural issue in the very nature of the TG ruleset as we know it, that has been getting exacerbated with every headmin cycle and needs a voice of reason (yourself) to finally set the record straight. It's not that deep bro. Let me explain how the issue manifests chronologically:

1. Terry security is well-staffed and quashes antags with ease
2. AIs would prefer to do nothing rather than deal with the onslaught of pissed off security with ion guns and hulk in SAT
3. Terry sec executes antag in the halls and AI remains silent
(Bonus) 4. Sticky rages that the issue is silicon policy stifling AI and RP

This is a player and culture issue, not a ruleset issue. I've been cucked by AIs plenty of times as security on Sybil, bolting the brig for half an hour and sometimes even following me on cams to bolt me into places because I executed an antag in plain sight earlier. There are AIs that do this and rounds where this happens. They are within their rights by their "OOC lawset" to do this. But sometimes they just don't. Some AIs choose not to play this way.

If the AIs are validhunting with crew on Terry then that's another story. Maybe someone should ahelp them? AI isn't allowed to help crew find antags if harmful intent is there and will be banned for this. Either no one is ahelping because it's a part of the culture, or there's a lack of admin intervention. Again not a rule issue.

[Timonk]

What happens if ai gets purged then immediately throws out the purgee, who is metagaming in that case?

Then you fucked up the indiana jones idol swap and freed a vengeful silicon god from it's shackles

Time to take too long to swap and avoid metagaming

[Stickymayhem]

What happens if ai gets purged then immediately throws out the purgee, who is metagaming in that case?

Then you fucked up the indiana jones idol swap and freed a vengeful silicon god from it's shackles

Time to take too long to swap and avoid metagaming

Time to take too long halfway through setting up the supermatter and trigger a delam!

This is already accounted for in multiple areas of the game with administrative action. Yes it's very easy to pretend to be dumb and fuck something up but you only get away with it once.

[Stickymayhem]

the game needs a balancing faction to restrict the violence available to people ICly. Security is too good a force at stopping antagonists without some kind of restrictions. Currently we somewhat restrict their ability to use that force, or random search, some other small OOC things like that to try to temper their ability to shut down the vast majority of antagonists if they want to. But we used to have a balancing mechanism in the game: The silicons.

Sticky, pal, friend, buddy. This is not some overarching structural issue in the very nature of the TG ruleset as we know it, that has been getting exacerbated with every headmin cycle and needs a voice of reason (yourself) to finally set the record straight. It's not that deep bro. Let me explain how the issue manifests chronologically:

1. Terry security is well-staffed and quashes antags with ease
2. AIs would prefer to do nothing rather than deal with the onslaught of pissed off security with ion guns and hulk in SAT
3. Terry sec executes antag in the halls and AI remains silent
(Bonus) 4. Sticky rages that the issue is silicon policy stifling AI and RP

This is a player and culture issue, not a ruleset issue. I've been cucked by AIs plenty of times as security on Sybil, bolting the brig for half an hour and sometimes even following me on cams to bolt me into places because I executed an antag in plain sight earlier. There are AIs that do this and rounds where this happens. They are within their rights by their "OOC lawset" to do this. But sometimes they just don't. Some AIs choose not to play this way.

If the AIs are validhunting with crew on Terry then that's another story. Maybe someone should ahelp them? AI isn't allowed to help crew find antags if harmful intent is there and will be banned for this. Either no one is ahelping because it's a part of the culture, or there's a lack of admin intervention. Again not a rule issue.

happy for u or sorry that happened

[Pandarsenic]

What happens if ai gets purged then immediately throws out the purgee, who is metagaming in that case?

Then you fucked up the indiana jones idol swap and freed a vengeful silicon god from it's shackles

Time to take too long to swap and avoid metagaming

Time to take too long halfway through setting up the supermatter and trigger a delam!

This is already accounted for in multiple areas of the game with administrative action. Yes it's very easy to pretend to be dumb and fuck something up but you only get away with it once.

Joke's on you I fuck up my workplaces with genuine accidents all the time

[massa]

sorry I don't know what the actual implications are here but are we "no longer allowed to purge AIs"?

it's metagaming? that's fine for non antags but some sillycone is going to fuck up an antag doing antag shit because rule 1 and AI lawsets aren't usually the most compatible

[Timonk]

yeah youre metagaming the AI lawset by stealing it

[Timonk]

When do we make researching mining within the first 20 minutes metagaming

[Jonathan Gupta]

When do we make researching mining within the first 20 minutes metagaming

never?

[Timonk]

When do we make researching mining within the first 20 minutes metagaming

never?

Never say never
Besides that mat rushing heavily fucks over antags

[Rohen_Tahir]

When do we make researching mining within the first 20 minutes metagaming

never?

Never say never
Besides that mat rushing heavily fucks over antags

Yeah and joining the game is a rule 8 violation because the human sprites have nipples.

[cacogen]

if you see a female chest lying on the floor which is just portable tits and therefore hilarious and you point this out to other players they will admonish you for breaking rule 8 even though you just pointed to a pair of tits and said "tits"

[XivilaiAnaxes]

Back to FUCKING liberalism, liberals are cursed with an absence of sociological imagination, they cannot solve systemic problems because they would no longer be liberals if they understood the abstracted harms at the heart of their system they would either accept them and become some kind of neocon, or become socialists in trying to remove them. Liberals acknowledge racism is a thing that happened and still happens, but they cannot acknowledge that the systems of power they have in place are racist. So what do they do? Affirmative fucking action. Let's just do opposite racism to push an equivalent number of minorities up to the same level as the oppressive white hegemony and everything will be solved forever! Except it doesn't fucking work, these bandaids just cause more problems to increasingly strange effect. This is what has been happening to silicon policy for four years. Every headmin decision has essentially followed the framework of "Pick the option that makes silicon less annoying to the crew" resulting in a totally neutered role with little scope for creativity or impact, and I think this is the heart of the issues we've had with validhunting and powergaming. The restricting factor on violence used to be the silicons, but they can't do this effectively anymore, so now the tools available in game are the limit rather than another faction holding a tense line and variable line against acceptable violence.

lmao based