[POLL] Another goonchem poll

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:34 pm #65202

It's been like a month. Revert or keep it?

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/7515

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:20 pm #65212

There are still many issues.
But most of them are already being addressed and will be fixed soon.

Over all, I like be.
There are few chemicals that does the same thing.
Patches may still need balance, but they are an interesting alternative to pills.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:28 pm #65219

Bumping for relevance

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:42 pm #65232

Eh ive enjoyed the new recipes and stuff for chemistry. Dont see the big deal as long as things actually get fixed. Not shitty changes like the Medivendors being stocked with a ridiculous amount of chemicals.

If this poll is yet another landslide, then it should still be reverted. Kudos for putting in the effort and making a PR to revert the whole thing, even if it probably wont happen.

AnonymousNow · Post by **AnonymousNow** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:42 pm #65233

Before people ask, the logic of there being a new poll is that the old one was made about two weeks back, and since Goof ignored it and changed a bunch of things, coderbus has retroactively deemed it irrelevant.

Fix our medicines. Goonchem out.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:48 pm #65237

AnonymousNow wrote:Before people ask, the logic of there being a new poll is that the old one was made about two weeks back, and since Goof ignored it and changed a bunch of things, coderbus has retroactively deemed it irrelevant.

Fix our medicines. Goonchem out.

nobody has really even mentioned the absolutely absurd amount of stuff in the nanomed machines
no medbay staff no problem, hack a motherfucker and you're good. cryo mix? just drop pills from the machine into the beaker. bonus: cryo is self-serve and its healing power is no longer balanced by the fact that it requires an operator for the patient

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:05 pm #65241

Cecily wrote:nobody has really even mentioned the absolutely absurd amount of stuff in the nanomed machines
no medbay staff no problem, hack a motherfucker and you're good. cryo mix? just drop pills from the machine into the beaker. bonus: cryo is self-serve and its healing power is no longer balanced by the fact that it requires an operator for the patient

Yeah, there are a number of things to be balanced there.
There have been talk about what to do with the cryotubes and the sleepers. Some say remove sleepers, some say cryotubes should be a self-service thing, others think cryotubes should put you to sleep again and require someone to get you out again, but I don't know who is saying what.

AnonymousNow · Post by **AnonymousNow** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:10 pm #65243

Cecily wrote:
AnonymousNow wrote:-
nobody has really even mentioned the absolutely absurd amount of stuff in the nanomed machines
no medbay staff no problem, hack a motherfucker and you're good. cryo mix? just drop pills from the machine into the beaker. bonus: cryo is self-serve and its healing power is no longer balanced by the fact that it requires an operator for the patient

It's a system that's supposedly intended to make doctors important, but instead seems like it was designed to make doctors irrelevant.

I'm telling you, what we need is a mixture of the two systems - bring back Star Trek medicines, make them easy to make and harder to overdose on or get addicted to, but considerably weaker. They're useful to the crew at large, good for healing cuts and bruises, little burns etc. with little to no medical knowledge...

...but if you want some serious healing, you'll either need a lot of those medicines and patience (possibly in mixtures), or you'll need goon medicines, which are harder to make, easier to overdose on and get addicted to, but pack a lot of healing power.

EDIT: And remember - many of these new Goofchem medicines are based on random chance. Random chance medicines. Random. Random chance.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:12 pm #65244

we need some actually skilled coders to rewrite medical as a whole instead of doing fifty tiny overhauls that dont interact with each other.

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:00 pm #65262

I think we need to specify more what is on the topic of being reverted and what isn't.

I mean everything and anything can be changed over time. But if you want a fair vote, then you have to actually let people know exactly what they are voting to get reverted.

I am not even sure we have a set plan for where /TG/'s medical system should go.
Right now everyone is just adding/removing/changing random features.

I am sure we don't need to revert the GoonChem/GoofChem/"whatever you wanna call the current state".
We just need to set a plan and shape what we have into that.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:09 pm #65267

Until we do have a plan we should revert these changes to the state we were in before the changes started, as a base line.

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:19 pm #65277

Steelpoint wrote:Until we do have a plan we should revert these changes to the state we were in before the changes started, as a base line.

Not sure that is a good idea.
It would possibly break even more things to revert it.

And then we have to fight with more bugs.
People have been talking on CoderBus today that the best way to implement this is in small steps. Gigantic PullRequests are not a good idea as it would halt everyone else's work on related code for a long time, or be a major headache for the creator of the PullRequest.

It can then be argued that the GoonChem changes were very badly tested, but they falls on the maintainers that approved of the changes too.

But I'd still say that moving forward is better then moving backwards.

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:33 pm #65281

Goonchem has some good parts, and some bad parts.

On the plus side, I'm glad there are no quick fixes for anything anymore. I also like the idea of addiction and ODing. Finally, it gave chemists a lot more options and made medbay a little more engaging.

On the down side, there was no need to change the names of many chemicals, as it leads to pointless confusion (inb4 MUH NO FUN ALLOWED REFERENCE POLICY!! Fuck off, nobody is going to sue us.) Second, there was no need to completely remove the old medicines that had no downsides, they simply needed to be nerfed so they were not the end all, be all solution. Third, I think we could have coded all these new chemicals ourselves rather than try to port them, if for no other reason than we could have done quality control on it ourselves and not had to balance everything to our server after the fact.

All in all, its a step in the right direction but it should be reverted while more things are tweaked. Or just tweak them as we go, but somehow I don't think thats going to happen.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:59 pm #65288

Kill it in holy fire. Revert it and work on a system that is a mix of old chem and new chem

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:39 pm #65299

implying it will get reverted at this point
the best thing anyone can do at this point is call goofball a faggot repeatedly when you see him

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:20 pm #65322

And that's why people absolutely hate when shit like this gets rushed through. It becomes a fucking nightmare to try get it reverted, jesus christ.
All it does is make it feel (whether true or not) that 'evil coders' are trying to sneak their stuff in and make sure i never gets removed.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:30 pm #65324

Voting abstain. Something needed to change, goofball and allura changed it. It is a hot mess and needs fixing, but at least it was /something/. I dont know if reverting the whole thing is the best way to fix it, but it needs to be fixed. I am no coder.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:54 pm #65328

Have Trekchem and medical.
Have recipes for Goonchem made for trek chem
Don't over complicate it
Literally just add in Trekchem analog recipes that were in goonchem
Seriously. KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid.

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:43 pm #65378

Can we get a poll ingame too?
And for crying out loud, be specific, what are we talking about reverting?
ChemHeaters? Chem name changes? New chems? Old chems removal? Patches?

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:53 pm #65380

Deantwo wrote:Can we get a poll ingame too?
And for crying out loud, be specific, what are we talking about reverting?
ChemHeaters? Chem name changes? New chems? Old chems removal? Patches?

This is most of the problem. There's 90343 vague ideas of what people want and don't want and it keeps getting boiled down to a binary "revert don't revert" without saying what will be reverted and what will stay.

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:24 am #65389

cedarbridge wrote:
Deantwo wrote:Can we get a poll ingame too?
And for crying out loud, be specific, what are we talking about reverting?
ChemHeaters? Chem name changes? New chems? Old chems removal? Patches?
This is most of the problem. There's 90343 vague ideas of what people want and don't want and it keeps getting boiled down to a binary "revert don't revert" without saying what will be reverted and what will stay.

Exactly!
I made a thread for just this now: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2806
Lets find the problem and fix it!

Babin · Post by **Babin** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:14 am #65438

Loonikus wrote:Goonchem has some good parts, and some bad parts.

On the plus side, I'm glad there are no quick fixes for anything anymore. I also like the idea of addiction and ODing. Finally, it gave chemists a lot more options and made medbay a little more engaging.

On the down side, there was no need to change the names of many chemicals, as it leads to pointless confusion (inb4 MUH NO FUN ALLOWED REFERENCE POLICY!! Fuck off, nobody is going to sue us.) Second, there was no need to completely remove the old medicines that had no downsides, they simply needed to be nerfed so they were not the end all, be all solution. Third, I think we could have coded all these new chemicals ourselves rather than try to port them, if for no other reason than we could have done quality control on it ourselves and not had to balance everything to our server after the fact.

All in all, its a step in the right direction but it should be reverted while more things are tweaked. Or just tweak them as we go, but somehow I don't think thats going to happen.

What "options" are you referring to?
tgchem basic chem: make cryo mix, spam tricord
goonstation basic chem: make cryo mix, spam patches styptic/sulf/charcoal patches and let people figure out which one they need

tgchem robust chem: make a faster cryo mix, make fast-acting pills which cure things quickly, make situational chems as necessary
goonstation robust chem: make a faster cryo mix, make fast-acting patches which cure things slightly quickly, make situational chems as necessary

Maybe you're referring to the advanced meds? The ones that work quickly but have serious downsides? Those are superfluous. Most doctors don't have an idea what those chems do so they won't use them, and those chems aren't necessary anyway. If it's a "powerful" poison like cyanide or something, a charcoal patch will keep you alive long enough. If it's an actual robust poison, like a 50u pill filled with a plethora of different harmful chemicals, then you'll die before anyone can forcefeed you a calomel pill.

peoplearestrange · Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:58 am

So to chime in with my 2 pence.
I haven't touched chemistry since the change mainly because it seemed frighteningly over complicated and the wiki didn't really explain it all that well. However I feel like these are teething problems, whilst it does cause a few balancing issues in other things (such as medbay) ultimately I think a good chemist is something every good medic should want to have on there side.

After speaking with someone who will often role chemist they've convinced me that actual the change is probably a good thing, yeah parts need work, but there are a lot of people involved in changing it/making it better.

Plus things like brute/burn patches look so damn cool and the idea that you can OD is a nice idea, much better than reaching the weird "body" cap where you could no longer fit anymore chem's in a body.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:06 pm #65925

So is this another poll that won't mean anything?

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:17 pm #65928

Bombadil wrote:So is this another poll that won't mean anything?

Correct, as this shit will never be reverted no matter how much people want it gone.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:28 pm #65959

That's not #coderbus' fault, if you were a coder and had an undertaking this obnoxious you'd want to kill yourself too

I attempted it, and it can be done, but holy hell is it a lot of busywork.

Allohsnackbar · Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:26 pm

Saegrimr wrote:
Bombadil wrote:So is this another poll that won't mean anything?
Correct, as this shit will never be reverted no matter how much people want it gone.

Reasoning besides reinforcing the image that the coderbus just wants to push thir pet projects onto the server with little regards for the players who have to deal with it?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:28 pm #66025

Allohsnackbar wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:
Bombadil wrote:So is this another poll that won't mean anything?
Correct, as this shit will never be reverted no matter how much people want it gone.
Reasoning besides reinforcing the image that the coderbus just wants to push thir pet projects onto the server with little regards for the players who have to deal with it?

good conspiracy that's coincidentally completely wrong

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:02 pm #66047

paprika wrote:That's not #coderbus' fault, if you were a coder and had an undertaking this obnoxious you'd want to kill yourself too

I attempted it, and it can be done, but holy hell is it a lot of busywork.

It's a lot of work to revert this. Maybe we should of tested this out instead of immediately pushing it out

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:13 pm #66056

Bombadil wrote:Maybe we should of tested this out instead of immediately pushing it out

No argument there.
Are you volunteering to test all code changes? Would be very helpful since seemingly not everyone test their code.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:18 pm #66060

Don't you guys have a test server?

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:19 pm #66061

Bombadil wrote:
paprika wrote:That's not #coderbus' fault, if you were a coder and had an undertaking this obnoxious you'd want to kill yourself too

I attempted it, and it can be done, but holy hell is it a lot of busywork.
It's a lot of work to revert this. Maybe we should of tested this out instead of immediately pushing it out

Even better idea. Force goofball to revert goonchem before he can put out any other prs

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:42 pm #66069

DemonFiren wrote:Don't you guys have a test server?

Not that I know of, you volunteering to play on it if there was?

Mostly coders have to start a local server and test their code on that.
Easy to set up and test there, only things that require multiple players can be difficult to test.

The problem is that not all maintainers download every code change and tries it out I guess. Would also be a freaking huge and time consuming job though, so I guess I can understand why.
But really, if a coder doesn't test his own code before submitting it, he should be dragged into the street and shot. (Me included if I ever put out crappy untested code.)

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:47 pm #66070

I used to play on Bay's test server rather frequently...although the fact that Bay's test server barely had any rules helped.

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:53 pm #66075

Violaceus wrote:How dare you demand anything from people that put their free time to code things for you?!

Huh? Who? No clue who your talking to. ^^;

But yeah, that does worsen the quality of the code we get I guess.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:15 am #66142

Goofball himself admitted that this is a unfinished feature.

Personally I've never pushed a half-finished feature to the servers and then tell people to suck it up and wait for me to finish it.

We've had a month of Goonchem, and the response is clear that people dislike it. We really should revert the change and wait for goof to actually finish his system before we look at Goonchem again. Right now we are using a 50% finished system in place of a 100% finished system.

How many polls, and threads, and discussions and locked PR do we need until the message gets through?

specyalic · Post by **specyalic** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:19 am #66216

Steelpoint wrote:
How many polls, and threads, and discussions and locked PR do we need until the message gets through?

"kick a heap of sand and start counting the grains, once you are done find more grains"

we could certainly revert goonchem, and have it refined greatly somewhere private, so when you finally implement it for real, there will be far less tears and complaints

Revert or keep goon chem?