Mining rewards: Paprika isn't as much of an asshole edition

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:09 pm #65138

Okay nobody else is doing it and ergo went kind of AWOL again.

What should the mining rewards be? I will take all suggestions no matter if you play mining or not. I want to incentivize mining a lot more without having to beg r&d to use the resources you brought them to make you fancy tools. For example: Should the diamond drill not require research? Should it just be a really expensive mining vendor item?

Should all of mining's equipment be self-purchased using NTBUX at the vendor(with the exception of ripley mechs and stuff)? Should their tools be tiered? Should the kinetic accelerator/resonator have upgrades?

I don't want to discuss monsters and mobs on the asteroid right now since that will come later(and preferably handled by ergovisavi since he's actually good at spriting and can make new mobs). Right now, the contents of the mining redemption vendor is what I want to discuss.

Shaft miner rewards and stimpacks were my first real fuckup and unfair tantrum towards the community and I want to correct it. Shaft mining is a thankless job.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:03 pm #65152

paprika wrote:

You can't fool me. That's Kamen Rider not a shaft miner.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:08 pm #65153

Good first step would be separating the gimmick rewards from the useful one's, its annoying to shift through them.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:17 pm #65156

Upgradable kinetic accelerator
Hyperzine working with hard suits
Big tank storage
Higher chance for rare artifact rooms
A way to move resources without having to go all the way to cargo and R&D,maybe some teleporter that can send it to R&D or cargo bay so I can continue to kill mining mobs while getting resources.
Mining thermals? - rarely used item at all so giving to minings to see mobs and resources sounds like a perfect use for them.
Trekchem healing - No clue if you fought goliaths but they pack a punch against anyone not in a riot suit or mining rig, bruise packs is important. Granted I know the secret taught to me by master BlessedHeretic.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:45 pm #65159

Rather than Hyperzine, how about just giving Miners some kind of Magboot that makes you run slightly faster in low pressure areas?

As ive said for a while now, it would be great if we could have some kind of healing chem in the vendor. Healing is much harder now with the Medkit nerf. Hell, just replace the sleeper with a cryo tube now they auto-eject.

Fayrik · Post by **Fayrik** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:46 pm #65161

RG4 wrote:Big tank storage

While I agree, this was a great thing for Mining (less so for engineering and atmospherics), wouldn't it be better to add more extended tanks? They fit in a box, and it only takes a couple to hold the same amount as a big tank would.
If the tank storage unit carried extended tanks instead of the big tanks, then you'd probably find you could easily carry more oxygen.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:09 pm #65170

Higher chance for rare artifact rooms

This seems impossible. These rooms are spawned from like an artifact room version of a loot spawner. There is no higher chance. The only higher chance would be if someone bought something that simply made more spawn of something. Not really practical.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:15 pm #65173

Upgradable kinetic accelerator and maybe an advanced version of mesons which always show ores like they used to.

A suit upgrade that allows more mobility in exchange for loosing some protection (goliath plates already make you tough as fuck after the first 2-3 so I don't think that'd be too much of a nerf) would be pretty swank too.

TheWiznard · Post by **TheWiznard** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:41 pm #65179

RG4 wrote:Upgradable kinetic accelerator

I remember falling in love with the accelerator on NT station, then coming back to TG and remembering it sucked big time. While I'd love to see it similar as it as on NT
screwdriver, add diamond bar/plasma bar, increases reload/range; using the plasma has a chance to break it even if you only use it once though, which was perfectly fine. It also had a chance to fire up to three wide two deep, aka shotgun spread and that was the shit. I would be perfectly fine with using it again if it even had the shotgun spread to it. On NT the shotgun spread only affecting the asteroid, didn't affect hitting mobs or windows or anything, which I'm cool with for balance or whatever. I know most people use this for "pve" but I mainly used it to mine and fought very little with it until it was upgraded a bit.
-----
wiznards bad ideas
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A minerbot that is a healer instead of a fighter, maybe skirts away from mobs like the goldgrub does...[I'm thinking like a healer that let's you stay in the fight longer without limping all the way back to the station, maybe it can only synth chems from a beaker so you need to go to chem or something?]
Let you screwdriver the normal minerbot and attach the auto scanner to let it auto ping for minerals. [give it a smaller range/longer cooldown/less damage?]

Something like the jaunter in that, you buy this thing and it breaks off into two pieces, you give one piece to someone on station/rnd/medbay and keep the other piece in your bag. When someone activates that piece you take the damage from the normal jaunter (if you're not already dead) and teleport somewhere nearby the person (or even on the station zlevel, akin to the jaunter. [I'm thinking here you'd drop your ore off at cargo, head to the spawn room and pick this up before you go drop stuff off, hand it to someone, and be on your way. Then in the likely chance that you die it's easy peasy for someone to pick up your jaunter stick thing and bring you back to the station. Someone still has to find your body, but at least it's on the station now instead of surrounded by monsters, you can butcher the current jaunter sprite an just cut off the top part and use that as the beacon even]

I know you said you weren't planning on touching mobs, so you'll probably ignore this; make gold grubs more likely to eat minerals, as they are now they hardly eat anything and don't even drop much or anything if you kill them afterwards.

I don't know how feasible it is but maybe some kind of spraypaint you can color your RIG with? Like a gimmicky, fun thing you could buy extra when you have points.

soulgamer · Post by **soulgamer** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:32 pm #65225

Give them a Kinetic Hammer for like 1.5k points. Have it hit for like 25 damage (less in places with atmo like the KA) and instantly mine what it hits. Give it a roughly two second cooldown for recharging. This way it is a limited KA that you actively have to click to mine but will mine faster than the KA and you wont have to cock it.

Make the medpen bundle not shit. Last time I bought it I got like three or four innaprovaline pens which was bullshit and basically worthelss

Maybe add magboots for a fairly cheap price.

Id say have diamond drills for like 10k but leave R&D the ability to make them. That way the miners can still get good drills even if R&D is being shit but 10k is enough that it will still be worth encouraging R&D to research as 10k will take a decent amout of time to get.

Oh and for the love of god please fix the mining rewards machine and ore redemption machine to work of a SWIPE of an ID rather than inserting it. Having to insert your ID is clunky, annoying, and a good way for some random cunt to come by and nab it out of the machine.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:36 pm #65229

soulgamer wrote:Give them a Kinetic Hammer for like 1.5k points. Have it hit for like 25 damage (less in places with atmo like the KA) and instantly mine what it hits. Give it a roughly two second cooldown for recharging. This way it is a limited KA that you actively have to click to mine but will mine faster than the KA and you wont have to cock it.

We have this, it's called the resonator.

deathhoof · Post by **deathhoof** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:34 pm #65255

Jet boots. Make you run faster in low pressure areas regardless of suit bulkyness but require to be refilled with gas and use gas at 21kpa. Have the capacity of 2 standard oxygen tanks.

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:12 pm

deathhoof wrote:Jet boots. Make you run faster in low pressure areas regardless of suit bulkyness but require to be refilled with gas and use gas at 21kpa. Have the capacity of 2 standard oxygen tanks.

Yes.

Violaceus wrote:Please do not disturb consistency of game with mining equipment. Diamond drills being available at mining machines is bad from IC point of view, if NT inserted them to these machined, what is even the point of research? Same with upgrading your tools with resources, it sounds stupid and it should be required to grab better stock parts from R&D for upgrading.

No. Well, I agree that the diamond drill probbably should be R&D only, but saying COME TO R&D WE ARE THE BEST AND ONLY SOURCE is a bit naff. All it needs is some creative fluffing, probbably some shit about diamond refracting the kinetic pulse or something (hence why plasma does the same but is unstable). Boom done it fits.

Balut · Post by **Balut** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:10 pm #65334

How about deployable gear? Kinda like the emitters, except a laser drill or whatever. Pulverizes rock, leaves ore on the ground, requires a few moments to anchor, requires recharging every now and then via the mech chargers or whatever.

Also, how about transportation? Now that the transport tubes are buildable by atmos, it would be pretty nice if there was a transport hub that took you to and from the various outposts. I forget, were there methods of moving ore via transport tubes? I know there used to be the disposals things in the outposts, but I don't remember if those still work, and people would probably bitch if someone took their ore or whatever. Could do with making it work like the mail system - wrap shit up, send it on over.

I find myself wanting for space a lot of the time I play miner. How about making the tracking beacons accessories to the exosuits?

I also recall a little bit of inventory juggling. Maybe give the mining scanner a topleft button, so I can keep it in my pocket? I also kinda want to suggest merging the scanner and the bag, but that's dumb, since they both have on-click functions and stuff. Mayyybe as an RnD thing. Similarly, a beacon for Telescience to port swag to would be pretty hype, if one doesn't exist already.

How about having a couple mining-bombs on roundstart? Surely that would not end poorly or anything. If you're like SUPER against them being used on the station, you could just make them like a bigass explosion of that only-robust-in-atmosphereless-areas shit instead.

One roundstart Ripley?

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:13 pm #65336

Or work like Goon's mining charges, in that they can only be slapped on rock walls unless emagged.

AnonymousNow · Post by **AnonymousNow** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:24 pm #65340

I play mining often and I like pretty much everything in this thread.

What about modular mining robot upgrades? I'd like one that functions like an ore scoop, so that it will immediately pick up any ore that it's dragged over instead of standing over it for a few seconds, scratching its rusty chin with a scraping sound.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:31 pm #65342

Hell, some kind of ore satchel of holding would be nice. No more lugging around an ore crate.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:16 pm #65358

Hey. Hey guys.
What if you had like, a remote control for your mining bot(s). You use the remote on the bot to link them (so you can link multiple bots), then you can use the remote to issue them simple commands.
The two commands I can think off the top of my head being:
1: Change mode (change between killbot and orescooper mode)
2: Call to heel (makes all linked bots come to you/follow you)

This way you can horde assloads of points, and have like 5 mining bots following you around. Daww.

Somejerk · Post by **Somejerk** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:25 pm #65361

Alex Crimson wrote:Hell, some kind of ore satchel of holding would be nice. No more lugging around an ore crate.

This and bombs.

Satchel of Holding would be tits.

Thundercoot · Post by **Thundercoot** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:28 pm #65364

It would be nice to be able to buy a normal mining drill without needing to redeem your voucher for one, in case you don't want to carry a shovel but still want to dig up sand.

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:16 am #65386

...

Let there be a rare chance of finding a supermatter shard.

AnonymousNow · Post by **AnonymousNow** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:09 am #65412

ThanatosRa wrote:...

Let there be a rare chance of finding a supermatter shard.

As somebody who wants to use a supermatter shard as a mining charge - yes please.

soulgamer · Post by **soulgamer** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:33 am #65432

lumipharon wrote:Hey. Hey guys.
What if you had like, a remote control for your mining bot(s). You use the remote on the bot to link them (so you can link multiple bots), then you can use the remote to issue them simple commands.
The two commands I can think off the top of my head being:
1: Change mode (change between killbot and orescooper mode)
2: Call to heel (makes all linked bots come to you/follow you)

This way you can horde assloads of points, and have like 5 mining bots following you around. Daww.

Can we have a button that stops them from shooting me in the fucking back anytime I stumble upon a goliath?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:00 am #65433

Violaceus wrote:Please do not disturb consistency of game with mining equipment. Diamond drills being available at mining machines is bad from IC point of view, if NT inserted them to these machined, what is even the point of research? Same with upgrading your tools with resources, it sounds stupid and it should be required to grab better stock parts from R&D for upgrading.

Because diamond tipped drills are definitely advanced research right and nobody in ss13's universe has thought to tip a drill with diamond.

No but really there's no reason for mining to get better gear from r&d except mechs. it's inconsistent and boring.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:11 am #65437

Upgradable kinetic accelerator was always the coolest thing and I've heard nothing but good about it.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:03 pm #65607

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2770

Read the the thread on ripley

Make ripley faster in 0g environments.

Increase chance of ripley drilling through doors with diamond drill to like 90-100%

Give ripley a extra slot for a kinetic accelerator attachment that you can get a upgrade to to make it a 3x2 blast. Also make the recharge on it not require pressing a button in the exosuit ui that shitty black and green ui. Add hotkeys like press ing 1 2 or 3 to switch to equipment slots.

Give ripley advanced scanning suite.

It's logical that this increases the cost of the ripley due to it actually being useful again but it would still require a lot of upgrading to become 3x2 kinetic shotgun blast. Make diamond drill do 3x3 because drilling the asteroid faster isn't a good upgrade when it already does it relatively quickly.

Also remove all the shitty mining artifact rooms and make all the rooms have something useful that won't always be game breaking. EX of fun non-game breaking: E-Cutlass, Hugger, maybe a entire cult space suit that allows you to go as fast as CE in his hardsuit(you can find rooms with the helmet but never the actual suit)

Something thats fun flavorful and isn't a disappointment. Mining rooms should always give you something fun and useful like the wizard room with smoke. Not go into a cult mining room and find a beating heart and a crayon. Oh wow neato.
Or digging into a room and finding a saw and a unmovable surgical suite oh wow thats great I worked hard for this and all I got was a saw

Although one game i did rebuild a temple to nar'sie and got turned into a juggernaut. That was fun. It was a traitor round.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:43 pm #65625

paprika wrote:Right now, the contents of the mining redemption vendor is what I want to discuss.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:34 pm #65644

Bombadil wrote:https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2770

Big dumb crybaby thread by people who want a pretty strong and efficent baseline mech to be much more powerful. Ripley is in a great place as-is.
(Also the clunkiness of the exosuit UI partially serves to make them less deus ex machina)

paprika wrote:Right now, the contents of the mining redemption vendor is what I want to discuss.

Revise the contents of the Medipen bundle. Ton of eph medipens which do literally nothing and just sort of take up space.

Are medkits an option from the machine currently? Because of Goonchem patches it's not even realistic to split up the kit because there are only 2 patches of each type, which are single-use. There either need to be mining medkits with special contents, or something else to make up for the vastly reduced healing.

And, finally, as has been said before: Upgradable KA. The machine could dispense parts for it, even.

Beyond that line of discussion, treasure rooms DO need to be reworked into something more interesting. RNG can really shit on you sometimes. Also, the Cult Armor CAN spawn in cult treasure rooms, contrary to popular belief. I've had it and boy is mining without slowdown some surreal shit.

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:43 pm #65649

Well, he's not wrong when it comes to the exact wording of the phrase. God by machine.

But otherwise, his use of it wasn't correct.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:52 pm #65651

Raven776 wrote:Well, he's not wrong when it comes to the exact wording of the phrase. God by machine.

But otherwise, his use of it wasn't correct.

I was referring to the direct meaning, yes.

ExplosiveCrate · Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:58 pm

Game balance should never be used to justify shitty UI.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:50 pm #65721

Cecily wrote:
Raven776 wrote:Well, he's not wrong when it comes to the exact wording of the phrase. God by machine.

But otherwise, his use of it wasn't correct.
I was referring to the direct meaning, yes.

It's the direct meaning God FROM the machine? Not by

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:40 am #65866

Can confirm that it is "God from (or out of) the machine". Referring originally to Greek theatre, where, quite often, at the end the deity's actor would be crane-lifted above the stage to resolve the last piece of conflict.

soulgamer · Post by **soulgamer** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:57 pm #65899

DemonFiren wrote:Can confirm that it is "God from (or out of) the machine". Referring originally to Greek theatre, where, quite often, at the end the deity's actor would be crane-lifted above the stage to resolve the last piece of conflict.

Greek play writers were shit.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:34 pm #65938

Back then it was all new and unheard of!

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:25 pm #65958

Goof is porting plasma cutter / kinetic accellerator changes. I plan on readding the kinetic accelerator with upgrades as well and adding it to the voucher so you can choose between those two if you want to take an upgradeable route instead of pure mining. However, I believe I need to add a third option that simply MINES faster than the kinetic accelerator/resonator, because when upgraded, the kinetic accelerator can simply tear through minerals faster than most drills.

I don't think it matters too much honestly if miners can mine fast. I'm not of the opinion that digging should take an hour. We can always adjust rates and research costs if it starts to be more like dig-dug than dorf mining. But what's important here is that miners put in some effort, their job has a bit of a skill factor, and they get rewards that translate to how much effort they put into the job rather than cheesing it.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:29 pm #66035

Anyway, I have (gasp!) an idea!

A box-sized stasis device of remarkably high price that can keep a small number of hivelord cores contained within it fresh indefinitely.
It might weaken their powers, have a chance to make the user puke instead or whatever other negative effects there are, of course, in order to balance it. But it allows a miner access to some fast and not-entirely-crappy healing.

soulgamer · Post by **soulgamer** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:33 pm #66064

DemonFiren wrote:Anyway, I have (gasp!) an idea!

A box-sized stasis device of remarkably high price that can keep a small number of hivelord cores contained within it fresh indefinitely.
It might weaken their powers, have a chance to make the user puke instead or whatever other negative effects there are, of course, in order to balance it. But it allows a miner access to some fast and not-entirely-crappy healing.

Fuck hivelord cores. There is no reason why they should go bad in the first place.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:42 pm #66067

soulgamer wrote: Fuck hivelord cores. There is no reason why they should go bad in the first place.

Instant-use items that heal you to 100% HP, which can be farmed from hivelords via laz injectors, and even then they aren't that hard to kill on a normal basis.

If they didn't expire they'd be stupidly overpowered.

soulgamer · Post by **soulgamer** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:50 pm #66074

MMMiracles wrote:
soulgamer wrote: Fuck hivelord cores. There is no reason why they should go bad in the first place.
Instant-use items that heal you to 100% HP, which can be farmed from hivelords via laz injectors, and even then they aren't that hard to kill on a normal basis.

If they didn't expire they'd be stupidly overpowered.

1. They shouldn't be farmable with LI.
2. If they MUST expire at least give more than a fucking minute to do so.
3. On their own they are not hard to deal with. However they run from you(usually down tunnels) and if you want to stop the constant annoying stream of shit coming at you you have to hunt them down. Usually into a goliath.

Also hey pap when are we getting a mining mob that just latches onto people and drains their blood?

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:30 am #66234

Either one of these would be fantastic:

Alex Crimson wrote:Hell, some kind of ore satchel of holding would be nice. No more lugging around an ore crate.

AnonymousNow wrote:I'd like one that functions like an ore scoop, so that it will immediately pick up any ore that it's dragged over instead of standing over it for a few seconds, scratching its rusty chin with a scraping sound.

Picking up ores is the most tedious part of mining... and it actually takes up quite a lot of your time too. If the scoop worked in a 3x3 by area, you could just mine with a drill and scoop in hand. A bit like a budget-ripley.

deathhoof · Post by **deathhoof** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:13 pm #66250

Why not let miners smelt swords as an incentive for mining? A high quality sword should be something like 50 metal sheets (to create the best possible steel or something). Best quality sword should be something like 20 diamonds 100 metal sheets and 50 plasma sheets. Best sword would do as much as fire axe and could be used to pry open doors. For 500 metal sheets (because japanese metal folding techniques or something) one could make a low quality katana that would do toolbox tier damage but could deflect projectiles. For 200 plasma and 50 metal one could make a flamberge which would do low damage but would set people on fire.

deathhoof · Post by **deathhoof** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:38 pm #66254

Violaceus wrote:Your katana is underpowered.

Spoiler:

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:14 pm #66264

Eswords are pretty shit against Durands though.

KAP · Post by **KAP** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:31 pm #68070

Violaceus wrote:
deathhoof wrote:
Violaceus wrote:Your katana is underpowered.

Spoiler:
katanas are a shit weapon

Mining smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to man- and lizard-kind. Katanas are thrice as sharp as eswords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything an esword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a durand mech with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why Syndicate never bothered conquering Mining? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined miners and their katanas of destruction.

My sides.

But no, this is a terrible idea. The last thing the station and science needs is to have the minerals from mining stolen by fifty assistants so they can make diamond swords and robust the clown.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:32 pm #68071

That's why the ore redemption machine is ID-locked.

AnonymousNow · Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:57 pm

Whilst we're proposing mining changes, can we make the cyborg diamond drill more accessible, please?

Maybe make it so that cyborgs can claim a drill unlock module (remote-signal-firmware-update-thing) for 1000 points worth of material in the ore redeemer. Since currently illegal/hacked module equipment is accepted to be inside the cyborg already, just inaccessible due to some sort of firmware restraining bolt, this gives a non-subverted cyborg a better incentive to mine, perhaps.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:39 pm #68094

What do rogue minerborgs get, then?

AnonymousNow · Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:52 pm

DemonFiren wrote:What do rogue minerborgs get, then?

They start with a sonic jackhammer; being emagged or hacked by a malfunctioning AI gives them a stun arm and, for some reason, a diamond mining drill. That drill would be so much more useful if it didn't require illegal tech to get.