Atmos Modifications

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun May 25, 2014 11:59 pm #8972

Bottom post of the previous page:

There's been some disagreement within adminbus on exactly where the line should be drawn for "Atmos Metagaming". The main point of contention specifically is whether or not replacing pumps with manual valves should be bannable.

A lot of admins have been forbidding the use of manual valves in atmos, mostly because it's perceived to screw over the AI, but I have to disagree on this point. Manual pumps are hardly permanent, and are easily replaced. Most AIs have or will have engineering borgs that can replace these pumps and make the gas flow again. The AI honestly has enough going for it without having an admin-protected ability to gas the station at any time.

Atmos techs have barely anything else to do, especially if we're going to restrict what they can or can not do to their own departments. It may be an upsetting thing to happen but I don't believe it's something we should be getting the admins involved with. I'd just like us to give atmos techs a little more leeway with what they do in their own department.

I am hoping that we can come to a consensus with an official policy from a head admin.

Post by **oranges** » Tue May 27, 2014 12:15 am #9250

There is some thought amongst the coders that we should try to involve atmospherics more in the power generation, so that they have something to do other than improving the atmosperics area to be AI proof. Because right now thats basically their entire job, along with cleaning up after toxin spills.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Tue May 27, 2014 1:10 am #9257

Fatal wrote:Remove the meta-protection, if you want to set fire to the station, you should have to work for it, atmos shouldn't be FORCED to be a fire waiting to happen

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue May 27, 2014 1:33 am #9265

Experienced atmos tehcnicians shouldn't be FORCED to not metagame for the good of the rest of the players!

Or you could just not be a fucking asshole

We should just remove manual valves, they aren't used unless an AI attempts to flood plasma or atmos technicians are metagaming and after that point the AI is killed/etc and there's a better way of stopping the AI plasma flooding which is cutting the cameras/apc access anyway.

Neerti · Post by **Neerti** » Tue May 27, 2014 2:01 am #9268

Replacing them w/ digital valves (as in remove manual and make digital be able to be made, and work normally) would be acceptable.

Only problem is >touching atmos code.

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Tue May 27, 2014 2:37 am #9271

Neerti wrote:Replacing them w/ digital valves (as in remove manual and make digital be able to be made, and work normally) would be acceptable.

Only problem is >touching atmos code.

Assuming atmos and pipes are decently written OOP code, it should be possible to make the needed changes without looking outside the files you'll be changing.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue May 27, 2014 4:15 am #9283

Control F, search in included files in dream maker when you're code hunting, saves a lot of time.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Tue May 27, 2014 5:37 am #9302

Aurx wrote:
Neerti wrote:Replacing them w/ digital valves (as in remove manual and make digital be able to be made, and work normally) would be acceptable.

Only problem is >touching atmos code.
Assuming atmos and pipes are decently written OOP code

LaughingSpacemen.img

Decently written. Atmos. In SS13. C'mon man you know better than that.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Tue May 27, 2014 5:56 am #9310

Oh its pretty fucking meta alright.

By that logic, go ahead and bolt down/weld the the armory shut at round start.

Traitors might be on the station and decide to break in, and use the guns to kill people.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue May 27, 2014 7:18 am #9325

The Armoury and Secure Tech Storage are assumed to already be well fortified (Which is false) thus that is why securing the contents without a good IC reason is banable.

HOWEVER! I have never been warned for further fortifying the Armoury, the guns are still there but you have to go to greater effort to loot the guns.

You can also fortify engineering/the sing near round start, I've even seen complex arrays of shield walls and rows of Rwalls blocking off the sing in the past.

Yet atmo is off limits to any form of fortification on terms of preventing a gas flood.

I have to say, if you want the EZ way of ending the round by lagging the server to hell, you should have to put in a token of effort. AIs that know how to plasma flood the station are usually not idiots that need hand holding.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:05 am #9360

do people make the same logical leap of saying it's meta when they make the logical leap of thinking in character, 'oh hey this gas system can be exploited for plasma flooding and I know AI's can flood plasma but it'll never happen to me nah, I'll just leave it like this'.

It's like the guy who found out about Heartbleed saying, 'oh I found this vulnerability which can be exploited and I know people who find out about it will exploit it but it'll never happen, I'll just leave it like this'.

a) stop calling it meta
b) if you really want to implement hugbox protection for specific antag actions, put it in the fucking policy already, instead of keeping it unwritten

edit- no one has mentioned things like swapping the direction of valves to counteract anything from the mix tank going into distro or god forbid, some sort of autism project that sucks plasma out the distro pipes while still letting the AI flood the mix tank with plasma.

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Tue May 27, 2014 1:16 pm #9378

imblyings wrote:do people make the same logical leap of saying it's meta when they make the logical leap of thinking in character, 'oh hey this gas system can be exploited for plasma flooding and I know AI's can flood plasma but it'll never happen to me nah, I'll just leave it like this'.

It's like the guy who found out about Heartbleed saying, 'oh I found this vulnerability which can be exploited and I know people who find out about it will exploit it but it'll never happen, I'll just leave it like this'.

a) stop calling it meta
b) if you really want to implement hugbox protection for specific antag actions, put it in the fucking policy already, instead of keeping it unwritten

edit- no one has mentioned things like swapping the direction of valves to counteract anything from the mix tank going into distro or god forbid, some sort of autism project that sucks plasma out the distro pipes while still letting the AI flood the mix tank with plasma.

Or wardens who think 'oh hey, armory is, like, 2 doors from maintenace, and the guns are just lying there on showcases and I know traitors have emags, but nah'.
Or AIs who think 'oh hey, secure tech storage can be broken into by making one hidden wall and hacking one door, maybe I should ask humans to move the boards somewhere safe, but nah'.
Or...

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Tue May 27, 2014 3:43 pm #9393

I don't care either way.

What I do care is that people stop calling things meta which aren't meta and put any specific hugbox protection for specific antag behaviour into writing where people can clearly see.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:13 pm #9431

Aurx wrote: Assuming atmos and pipes are decently written OOP code, it should be possible to make the needed changes without looking outside the files you'll be changing.

It's not. It's a lot better on /vg/ than here though. Might make sense to port their shit over.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Wed May 28, 2014 1:43 am #9463

imblyings wrote:It's like the guy who found out about Heartbleed saying, 'oh I found this vulnerability which can be exploited and I know people who find out about it will exploit it but it'll never happen, I'll just leave it like this'.

this is essentially nanotrasen's fluff rationale for literally everything on the death trap of a station

Apsis · Post by **Apsis** » Wed May 28, 2014 11:38 pm #9634

Moving the armory is dumb anyway. Usually wardens always get away with barricading weak points, and I've even seen a force field put in the armory so it's more protected from space. Same shit happens with the engine too. The problem is there needs to be more an atmos tech can fix up and change that is supported by fluff so it isn't meta. Why the hell should an AI flooding plasma be given special attention anyway? No one cares when antags are stomped with regular old meta sense. It's called being smart.

Blonkz · Post by **Blonkz** » Thu May 29, 2014 7:51 am #9707

Removing AI interactable parts from atmos is sabotage and stops the AI from preventing a plasmaflood.
It should be handled IC.

Fuck you policy-mongers.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Thu May 29, 2014 8:50 pm #9790

Blonkz wrote:Removing AI interactable parts from atmos is sabotage and stops the AI from preventing a plasmaflood.
It should be handled IC.

Fuck you policy-mongers.

Not possible. Everyone in-game would give them a medal.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri May 30, 2014 2:25 am #9823

Yeah metagame isn't IC

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Fri May 30, 2014 2:48 pm #9908

So, question, what does manual valving do?

Who or what does it prevent from flooding?

One player.

This is an action, that prevents literately one player from being able to fuck with atmos.

So, to everybody that wants to be able to manual valve the plasma at round start: Why is it so important for you to be able to fuck over the AI's tator/malf/subversion round?

I see people saying, well, the engiborg can just swap it out. So now we have a case where one player, and one player only, can't flood without it being known that they did it (borgs can't turn manual valves on), and literately every other player can flood without it being known they did it. This is assuming one, they have a borg at all, and two, it chose the engineering module set.

Why do atmos techs seem to want to fuck over the ai tator fun, but not other player's tator fun?

If you want to prevent flooding in atmos, and not be a dick in the process thats only only targeting one player, volume pump the distro/air line, go around maint and turn on those air tank's manual valves (the big red air tanks all over maint), now atmos will have 20 canisters worth of air in the distro line that have to get used before any plasma will get used, and oh hey, you actually have IC reason to do it, just say something something backup atmos something something power failure.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Fri May 30, 2014 6:28 pm #9940

MrStonedOne wrote: Why is it so important for you to be able to fuck over the AI's tator/malf/subversion round?

Consider the following - AIs are notorious for plasma floods, far more so than any other role. Even atmo techs. Yes, an Assistant can break into atmo and set up a flood, but ninety nine times out of a hundred they don't. Meanwhile, an antag AI that knows atmo will flood plasma far, far more often than not. AIs are the leading cause of atmospherics sabotage, and are far more capable at it than atmo techs because of air alarms. If this wasn't meta-policy, I'd expect atmo techs to put a manual valve somewhere in the line as part of their setup routine, and I'd want a darn good reason if they didn't.

MrStonedOne wrote:Why do atmos techs seem to want to fuck over the ai tator fun, but not other player's tator fun?

Because its their job. See above - Preventing atmo sabotage is their onejob, and the AI is the leading cause of that. AI-proofing the harmful gas tanks is a sound decision that makes a lot of sense from an IC perspective.

Don't cry to me because antag AIs would have to actually work for their station-consuming round-ending plasma fires and not be able to do it every round. This should never have been a special case in the first place.

Incomptinence · Sat May 31, 2014 7:37 am

Manual valves might as well be an item with a negative antag check considering how they are being used by blatant meta gamers.

It is like if a traitor couldn't operate a taser but they could operate a baton then officers decided to only carry tasers, this is moronic and abyss level game play.

Almost like the inverse of the syndicake problem, it didn't need to be but here we are. They say to just always have an engineering borg, guess what would happen if an engineering borg changed one precious manual valve back? They would squeal like a piggy.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 31, 2014 8:12 am #10085

Manual valves are intended for replacement and creating things similar to the incinerator easily, abusing them by using them to meta-lock AIs out of atmos is such bad no-fun atmos tech play it's a wonder this thread has gone on for this long without anyone even bothering to realize. Are people just this ignorant if it means they can ruin an antag's strategy before it happens? Cmon. Yeah floods suck but if you learned how to actually fix AI floods (easy as fuck) and set up the loop for faster toxin cleaning you wouldn't be in this position.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat May 31, 2014 8:13 am #10086

>metagaming

>that word being thrown around again

please don't use words you don't understand or worse, deliberately mis-use to add to your argument.

arguing for specific OOC protection for certain antags doing certain actions is fine. Arguing for a temporary loss of common sense and memory in characters, for the benefit of antags being able to cause plasma fires and create 'fun!!' is fine too. But those are the only two possible (and reasonable) angles for arguing why installing manual valves at roundstart should be banned. Please do not slip into calling it metagaming or 'antag checks'.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 31, 2014 8:21 am #10091

"It's so bad why can't people see this"

AIs should not have special treatment.
Plasma fires should not be a special case.
People shouldn't have to pretend to be bad at their jobs to cater to special roles.

All antags must commit to plans and courses of action to some extent; The AI should be no different.

If you're a traitor in genetics, TK-Hulk rampage is an option that's open to you. If you're not in genetics, it's not, barring special circumstances.
If you're a traitor AI with an Engiborg, grand atmo and/or RCD fuckery is an option that's open to you.
If not, you probably have a secborg, which means that laserborg murderbone is an option that's open to you.
Considering that both these options are very powerful, an AI ought not to be able to do both reliably - A choice should be forced.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 31, 2014 8:22 am #10092

Temporary memory loss of what? What fucking reason do atmos techs have to believe an AI is rogue every single fucking round and lock them out of atmos?

That's like cutting the AI out of the singulo every round. Stop with this stupid fucking argument already. It's metagaming.

PLASMA FIRES ARE NOT A SPECIAL CASE. RELEASING THE SINGULO IS THE SAME FUCKING THING AND WE BAN PEOPLE WHO CUT THE AI OUT OF THE SINGULO APC EVERY ROUND.

Psyentific wrote:A choice should be forced.

Holy fuck opinion discarded.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 31, 2014 8:28 am #10096

paprika wrote:Temporary memory loss of what? What fucking reason do atmos techs have to believe an AI is rogue every single fucking round and lock them out of atmos?

Under no circumstances should the AI be fucking with 'Plasma To Mix'

paprika wrote:
Psyentific wrote:A choice should be forced.
Holy fuck opinion discarded.

Traitor anything. I have 10TCs and two objectives. If I choose to spend TCs, I must do so wisely. Often, this means committing to a plan and spending TCs in line with that plan.
Changeling. I have, what, six powers? Rerolling those is a risky process that involves standing still for a prolonged period of time and taking someone out of the round. If I toss that around willy nilly, I'm going to get fucked.

An AIs borgs control, to an extent, its abilities while unsubverted. They ought to do the same while subverted; Engiborg means you get to do real atmos wizardry instead of panic syphons.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 31, 2014 8:51 am #10104

AI traitors should be able to kill people or prevent people from getting on the shuttle without any borgs, this is how it's balanced, but not when metafaggots shit all over atmos because hurr durr the ai always fluds plasma i've seen a lot of atmos in my day

btw this is ic knowledge not metaknowledge!! my character has survived over 300 rogue ai plasma floods!

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 31, 2014 8:54 am #10107

Psyentific wrote:
MrStonedOne wrote: Why is it so important for you to be able to fuck over the AI's tator/malf/subversion round?
Consider the following - AIs are notorious for plasma floods, far more so than any other role. Even atmo techs. Yes, an Assistant can break into atmo and set up a flood, but ninety nine times out of a hundred they don't. Meanwhile, an antag AI that knows atmo will flood plasma far, far more often than not. AIs are the leading cause of atmospherics sabotage, and are far more capable at it than atmo techs because of air alarms. If this wasn't meta-policy, I'd expect atmo techs to put a manual valve somewhere in the line as part of their setup routine, and I'd want a darn good reason if they didn't.

MrStonedOne wrote:Why do atmos techs seem to want to fuck over the ai tator fun, but not other player's tator fun?
Because its their job. See above - Preventing atmo sabotage is their onejob, and the AI is the leading cause of that. AI-proofing the harmful gas tanks is a sound decision that makes a lot of sense from an IC perspective.

Don't cry to me because antag AIs would have to actually work for their station-consuming round-ending plasma fires and not be able to do it every round. This should never have been a special case in the first place.

I don't really know how to refute that pile of words, so let me quote a previous post.

Both of us have made our points, and neither of us is any closer to convincing the other.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat May 31, 2014 9:57 am #10142

I've amply explained it before and it's something that can't and hasn't been refuted.

We have no official canon or IC regarding end-of-round mindwipes. This is a fact.
Nor do we have any official canon or IC regarding the control or spread of information from stations. This is a fact.
Therefore, there is nothing stopping a character from remembering AIs being able to plasma flood. This too, is a fact.

You can oppose or ridicule these facts but you'd be far more productive in suggesting canon or IC backstories that support you to be official. Until then, it is entirely plausible that no knowledge only known to the player is used, which means that manual valve replacing cannot be called metagaming. Don't interpret this wrongly. I'm simply saying that this isn't metagaming, not that the actual act of replacing pipes isn't wrong.

There are arguments to be made for banning it. The fact that borg-less antag AI's are almost useless without plasma flood capability and that antag AI players should have a 'fair' chance. The fact that plasma floods are a source of conflict and 'fun!!' that despite their potential bodycount and lag, do lead to a lot of potential fun that would be otherwise ruined because of manual valves. There are arguments for allowing it too. Plasma floods are potentially complete and utter round-ruiners. It also does make sense for an atmos tech to fix vulnerabilities in atmos- although I'd counter by saying that an actually competent fix would involve both a digital and manual valve, allowing interaction from both humans and the AI.

If this thread actually wants to go anywhere, focus on the arguments mentioned just above or start suggesting official canon and backstories for admins to enforce. Most likely though, no policy changes will result from this thread, this thread will get ignored, and unwritten policies that should be put into writing are left unwritten.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 31, 2014 10:12 am #10146

It's literally as simple as asking yourself if cutting the AI out of the singulo APC every round or hiding the armory is against the rules or not. We ban for that too, even if people have 'ic knowledge' and previous round knowledge.

It's not IC post-round knowledge, and using that as an excuse for metagame is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's already been decided that it's metagame, source? ALL THE BANS APPLIED TO PEOPLE USING THAT AS AN EXCUSE?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming

Try to bullshit that this isn't the direct fucking definition of metagame all you want but there's no such thing as IC knowledge carrying over and that has never, ever been a thing that's okay when it comes to things like this and has ALWAYS been defined as metagame. (See: armory hiding, tech storage bolting, eva bolting, etc) The game's token paranoia is supposed to build over the round, not start at the beginning with everyone meta-fortifying atmos and armory and tech storage from antags, that's why we ban for hiding the armory/bolting tech storage. You keep saying these 'facts' that I'm quite literally telling you are not facts and these are things that have been decided a long time ago after bans were applied to people who did shit like this.

Yeah, it's an unwritten policy, but it's there nonetheless, and I'm reminding you of its existence so you can stop implying that metagame with an 'ic knowledge' excuse is some kind of okay thing to do which it never has been, and anyone with any shred of experience in these servers would fucking know that. Hell, there's even admins saying that it's metagame, why the fuck are you even doubting this? Those facts you posted aren't facts and are literally just your lack of experience with bans that have been applied for this shit in the past.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat May 31, 2014 10:16 am #10148

We ban for hiding the armoury, we don't ban for fortifying the armoury so traitors have to make more of a effort to steal the guns.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 31, 2014 10:19 am #10149

Nah man, this isn't crew traitors, this is the AI, which you have literally zero reason to suspect would be a traitor/rogue at roundstart unless you're metagaming. After all, manual valve replacement is ONLY to block out the AI, period. Might as well cut AI control wires on all the important doors and cut him out of APCs while you're at it, can't have him tampering with things, after all, he's a free-thinking crewmember and not a machine!

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 31, 2014 10:27 am #10151

http://www.wiki.hoggit.us/tgstation/php ... 2b#p176068
Kor agrees manual valving is meta.

http://www.wiki.hoggit.us/tgstation/php ... 2b#p148659
Another post string on it.

Pay close attention, guys, this is the last time I'm saying it: it's metagame, REGARDLESS of your stupid paranoia because the AI flooded plasma last round. This is quite literally the ONLY job of the atmos tech, to fix these things when they happen, so stop trying to make atmos even more boring.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat May 31, 2014 10:35 am #10155

Oh, I think AI-proofing atmo without reasonable suspicious is dickish and metagaming. The in game lore presents malfunctioning AI's as a event that has NEVER happened, as far as Nanotrasen and the crew are aware the station AI is impeccable (Unless someone screws with its laws).

The only possible in character way I could possibly justify replacing the digital valves, is if the digital valves did not work if there was a power outage, if that is the case then that is a plausible (and sketchy) excuse, though that could easily be defeated by just leaving a manual valves lying around to replace if power did go out.

I can get away with fortifying the armoury because I have reasonable and in game suspicion to assume people may attempt to break into the armoury, I don't have any in game way of suspecting the Silicon's from round start as far as the lore and presentation is concerned.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat May 31, 2014 10:53 am #10161

Wikipedia wrote:In simple terms, it is the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions.

which is the definition that I've been using.

>It's literally as simple as asking yourself if cutting the AI out of the singulo APC every round or hiding the armory is against the rules or not. We ban for that too, even if people have 'ic knowledge' and previous round knowledge.

If you look closely at my posts, you'll see that the overriding theme has been to stop the wrong usage of the term 'metagaming' and to get unwritten policies into writing. Not disputing whether something was against the rules or not.

>It's not IC post-round knowledge, and using that as an excuse for metagame is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's already been decided that it's metagame, source? ALL THE BANS APPLIED TO PEOPLE USING THAT AS AN EXCUSE?
http://www.wiki.hoggit.us/tgstation/php ... 2b#p176068
http://www.wiki.hoggit.us/tgstation/php ... 2b#p148659

Are then examples of where bans should have more accurately reflected what they were banning for. It was not metagaming, it was a violation of OOC protection given to certain antags doing certain things. The fact that people were mistaken in the past does not change how the term 'metagaming' can be used.

>Try to bullshit that this isn't the direct fucking definition of metagame all you want but there's no such thing as IC knowledge carrying over and that has never, ever been a thing that's okay when it comes to things like this and has ALWAYS been defined as metagame. (See: armory hiding, tech storage bolting, eva bolting, etc) The game's token paranoia is supposed to build over the round, not start at the beginning with everyone meta-fortifying atmos and armory and tech storage from antags, that's why we ban for hiding the armory/bolting tech storage. You keep saying these 'facts' that I'm quite literally telling you are not facts and these are things that have been decided a long time ago after bans were applied to people who did shit like this.

The examples you post are all examples of unwritten (with the exception of the armoury one) policy having evolved to deter strategies to counter antags early on through the use of OOC policy. My facts still remain facts as no official canon or lore exists which state people are mindwiped or information flow is restricted. For you to tell me it's not a fact, you would also need to find a post or wiki page of some kind that details canon and lore that everyone must abide to.

>Yeah, it's an unwritten policy, but it's there nonetheless, and I'm reminding you of its existence so you can stop implying that metagame with an 'ic knowledge' excuse is some kind of okay thing to do which it never has been, and anyone with any shred of experience in these servers would fucking know that. Hell, there's even admins saying that it's metagame, why the fuck are you even doubting this? Those facts you posted aren't facts and are literally just your lack of experience with bans that have been applied for this shit in the past.

I've pointed out that it is not metagaming, not that it isn't wrong. I've been pushing to have these policies, which I am aware of, put into writing so other people can be aware of them. Furthermore, admins calling it metagaming are wrong, as has been explained, and would do well to be more clear and understanding of the policies they enforce. Admins enforcing this policy would be enforcing policy on OOC protection for specific antags and specific actions, not policy on metagaming.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat May 31, 2014 10:56 am #10165

Then why don't we do what Baystation does and have a official page of information on all the different kinds of antagonists, and what anyone is allowed and not allowed to know about them at round start? That would solve a a big chunk of the issues.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 31, 2014 10:57 am #10166

Most of my points revolve around OOC protection for specific antags being bad and wrong. The admins and the rules are not there to hold your hand.
The other thing I consistently bring up is that, compared to other antags, antag AI is much stronger, but more importantly much less limited.

Strength, who cares - It's the AI. It's the limits that I'm picky about - If traitors & ops are limited to their TC, changelings to their power selection, why isn't the AI limited in its methods for mass destruction/murder? Why is one of the easiest, quickest, and most accessible ways to do this outright banned? Because it steps on an antag AI's toes? Boo hoo, get an engiborg or shut up and deal.

Steelpoint wrote:Then why don't we do what Baystation does and have a official page of information on all the different kinds of antagonists, and what anyone is allowed and not allowed to know about them at round start? That would solve a a big chunk of the issues.

Because muh meta. As much as I'd like noslips and AI Detector multitools and similar subtle items to not be instantly recognizable permahe (Because that's half their entire point), that really doesn't fit the playstyle of TGstation.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat May 31, 2014 10:57 am #10167

Steelpoint wrote: The in game lore presents malfunctioning AI's as a event that has NEVER happened, as far as Nanotrasen and the crew are aware

Which wouldn't explain crew members knowing what blue apcs are or what shunting is or what hacked modules are.

Before someone misunderstands, this post solely points out the fact that we have no real canon and certainly no officially enforced ones.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat May 31, 2014 11:00 am #10168

Steelpoint wrote:Then why don't we do what Baystation does and have a official page of information on all the different kinds of antagonists, and what anyone is allowed and not allowed to know about them at round start? That would solve a a big chunk of the issues.

It would.

Bay has these rules however, because the trade off of normal crew being less able to hinder antags is that antags do less to hinder normal crewmen. They have a mutual agreement between non-antags and antags there, where both put roleplay and fun ahead of objectives or killing people. This system works for them.

If we want their system, we will need to want their mutual agreement as well, which would come into conflict with our do-anything-you-want antag licenses.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat May 31, 2014 11:01 am #10170

imblyings wrote:
Which wouldn't explain crew members knowing what blue apcs are or what shunting is or what hacked modules are.

Before someone misunderstands, this post solely points out the fact that we have no real canon and certainly no officially enforced ones.

Because as you pointed out, there is no ruling on what information players are allowed to retain throughout rounds nor any major restrictions on antag knowledge. The ONLY restriction on antag knowledge that I know of is using the Suit Sensors to discern a person using a rune and damaging themselves consistently.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 31, 2014 11:06 am #10172

Then we've established that "unrestricted" is generally the theme of policy, with regards to antags, actions involving antags, and knowledge of antags.

Why, then, is acting to counter one of the most common and most effective sources of round-ending plasma floods a special case?
A non-rogue AI has no reason to touch 'Plasma Output' in any given scenario. Even in the case of plasma in distro, there's still going to be pumps the AI can turn off between the plasma tank itself and distro input. It's not as if this is cutting cameras here.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 31, 2014 11:10 am #10176

You're not countering round-ending plasma floods at all.

You're countering plasma floods by the AI, and only the AI, because that's all manual valve replacement does.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 31, 2014 11:12 am #10179

And I've seen one round-ending plasma flood in recent memory that was not the AI, as opposed to how many that was?
If the AI is the number one cause of plasma floods, far and away, it makes sense to take steps to counter that specific threat. If a rogue AI wants to cry about that? Boo hoo, get an engiborg or shut up and deal.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat May 31, 2014 11:13 am #10180

Can Cyborgs interact with manual valves? If not then it also counters Cyborgs (Unless they are a engi borg).

In addition, you can say fortifying the armoury only counters humans, or traitors. Securing the Nuke Disk only counters Nuke Ops. Etc etc.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 31, 2014 11:17 am #10183

Steelpoint wrote:Can Cyborgs interact with manual valves? If not then it also counters Cyborgs (Unless they are a engi borg).

I believe not, which is what I'm saying. If an AI wants to roll atmos, get a goddamn engiborg. Maybe then they'll have something to do that isn't punch holes in the floor or spam doors like a faggot.

Steelpoint wrote: In addition, you can say fortifying the armoury only counters humans, or traitors. Securing the Nuke Disk only counters Nuke Ops. Etc etc.

Fortifying the brig is the other half of the Warden's job - If, at some point, I don't see security barriers in the weak spots and/or cleverly placed flashers, I'm going to have doubts about the warden's competence. Once, I saw a turret in the armory. An honest to god fires at nonsec only stun turret. Yes, fortifying the armory and brig is the warden's job, yes, he's expected to do it.

Likewise, securing the disk is the Captain's one job above any and all else. Actual Captaining is optional - Guard the disk with your life. Bonus points for actually leading the crew, bonus points for stripping the access from or hiding the spare ID because that's the main reason people break in and make a mess of your office.

Floodproofing atmos is half of the atmo techs job - If they cannot do basic preventative measures like this, they should not be a dedicated atmospheric technician.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 31, 2014 11:19 am #10184

Why do I have to do this run around because you are incapable of common sense with this and keep trying to find justifications for metagame?

Once again! Manual valves only prevent flooding by rogue AIs which you have no reason to suspect as being rogue unless you're metagaming!

Silicons have no past history of malfunctioning, aka, why malfunctioning is an actual thing in the first place. This is canon. Want to know why?

If AIs had a history of malfunctioning or being traitors they wouldn't be on the fucking station with access to atmos, the singulo, the station runtimes, or the ability to nuke the fucking station.

Humans, of course, you have a decent reason to suspect as being traitors, agents, etc, because humans have an entire million-year history of being shitters to each other. WHICH IS WHY WE HAVE DIFFERENT ACCESS RESTRICTIONS AND RANKS FOR HUMANS BUT NOT THE AI.

Holy fuck how is this shit getting past the common sense part of your brain, I should not have to spoonfeed this.

One more fucking time, putting manual valves in atmos is not floodproofing, it's AI-exclusive floodproofing for no reason other than to be a dick because the AI flooded plasma a few rounds ago. Stop doing it.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 31, 2014 11:26 am #10185

paprika wrote:Why do I have to do this run around because you are incapable of common sense with this and keep trying to find justifications for metagame?

Because it's not fucking metagame we've been over this

Once again! Manual valves only prevent flooding by rogue AIs which you have no reason to suspect as being rogue unless you're metagaming!
Silicons have no past history of malfunctioning, aka, why malfunctioning is an actual thing in the first place. This is canon. Want to know why?

There's two cases - Either silicons have no past history, which means nobody remembers the bajillion times they've fucked everyone (And, by extension, post-round mindwipes are in effect, if only selectively)
OR silicons have past history, in which case the tells for a rogue AI and the tells for a malf AI are semi-common knowledge, and crew can be expected to act accordingly. I've always assumed the latter; it's much more in line with other antags.

If AIs had a history of malfunctioning or being traitors they wouldn't be on the fucking station with access to atmos, the singulo, the station runtimes, or the ability to nuke the fucking station.

NANOTRASEN, Yes they fucking would and we both know it.

One more fucking time, putting manual valves in atmos is not floodproofing, it's AI-exclusive floodproofing for no reason other than to be a dick because the AI flooded plasma a few rounds ago. Stop doing it.

But I've never done it. You know me, I don't play atmo tech. Hell, I don't even know atmos. My logic is quite simple 1) The AI causes more plasma floods than any other source. 2) The Atmo tech's job is to prevent plasma floods. 3) Therefore, a competent atmo tech ought to AI-proof atmos to some extent.

If the AI wants to flood, he ought to work for it like everyone else; He certainly shouldn't get special treatment through OOC rules & policy.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 31, 2014 11:28 am #10186

Fuck it I give up, someone who doesn't play atmos tech is arguing that assuming that AI-proofing atmos with no reason to suspect an AI as rogue is not metagame.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 31, 2014 11:30 am #10187

What, because I don't play atmos? People can weigh in plenty on Cargo if they don't play it, what makes this different?

It's competence, not metagaming >:I

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 31, 2014 11:37 am #10188

sure ok

Incomptinence · Sat May 31, 2014 11:39 am

Yes you are allowed to know about antags. No you are not meant to prepare to shaft one specific antag every round because it might happen, you KNOW it is a might not an ALWAYS. Forcing a "choice" is removing a choice, if a meticulous metagamer changed these valves every round AIs would near never flood plasma that is simply how it would go down.

This would be like a scientist carrying a PAI signaller bomb combo every round because ooh someone might murder me better redtext em.