[POLL]Should the Assistant role have reduced Antag status?

[tunderchief]

As most everyone knows, we are currently drowning in a permanent greytide composed of the most experienced players in the game going perma-Assistant to get a higher chance of Antag roles, or to screw off without being expected to do anything productive should they fail to obtain an Antag role, leaving important technical and Head roles untaken or open for the newfriends that are supposed to be Assistants to begin with.

We would like to get a Community poll on whether the Assistant job should be reduced in eligibility or made entirely ineligible for Antag roles in order to reduce the desirability of being an Assistant, thus enticing the experienced freeloaders to get a goddamned job, and allowing Assistants to be what they were supposed to be from the beginning; jobs for new players to learn the game without expectations.

[Timbrewolf]

Continuing the discussion from the idea thread:

Assistant is supposed to be a job for players who genuinely have no idea what the fuck they're doing to kind of wander around and gawk at the station, maybe accompany another player into their department and look over their shoulder while they do things.

Instead it's become a resting place for people who want to hang around on the station without any responsibility or "work" while still rolling for antag, antag-hunting, or just general grey-tiding. While there are some players who like to play assistant and generally aren't part of the problem, it's the job that most often causes problems for others on the station, and the job most of the players who like to cause trouble prefer.

The intent behind restricting their access to antag roles is to drive those players into other jobs and the accompanying responsibility. Our perception of a medical doctor or random botanist running around smashing into everything and starting fights is different from an assistant, and this will make those repeat offenders (if they choose to continue to be shit and not actually play along) that much more obvious. There's no "lol but I'm an assistant tho" excuse (that in my opinion shouldn't exist in the first place but does anyway).

It doesn't prevent anyone from playing as an assistant that genuinely likes the role and roleplays as an assistant. It doesn't change the "reward" of being a traitor so that it becomes something for people that actually intend to do something on the station instead of run around aimlessly in a grey jumpsuit.

Tl;dr if you're playing the job-type that is supposed to be the "training wheels" of the game, then you're going to be at least seeded in the antag roles as if you are someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

[paprika]

They don't get a higher chance of antag roles.

Whoever started this rumor needs to fucking leave forever.

[tunderchief]

They don't get a higher chance of antag roles.

Whoever started this rumor needs to fucking leave forever.

Even if it isn't true, which I am fairly sure it is, the Assistant role needs to be made less desirable, and returned to the training job it was intended to be.

[paprika]

"even if it isn't true, which is an easily provable thing by looking at the code/asking in coderbus..."

just fuck off already tunderchief

also i agree with you

[Incoming]

People will always just default to the next lowest priority job for antag rolls anyways, Grey tide becomes yellow tide, then you remove antag from yellow tide and it becomes white tide, and so on and so forth until there's nowhere left to go and every round is extended.

You can't code against player behavior.

If people are greytide rolling for antag then suiciding that means they aren't getting enough enjoyment out of nonantag play, which is a completely different problem.

[paprika]

You literally can code against player behavior, look at baystation. All of the limitations there encourage a specific kind of player and playstyle and they're largely successful in achieving that.

[Incoming]

You literally can code against player behavior, look at baystation. All of the limitations there encourage a specific kind of player and playstyle and they're largely successful in achieving that.

Yes but that's because that player base accepts those sorts of limitations and THAT'S because they've been running it like that for years. You try to pull that shit here and people will do their damnedest to work around it, bitch endlessly, or just leave. I mean you remember the speed change right? We're STILL dealing with the fallout from that.

Speaking of why is this being suggested for TGstation? This really feels like more an NT sort of suggestion.

[paprika]

Has the speed change or implanted roles not having antag ever been reverted on /tg/? Has sybil's population suffered at all? I rest my case.

People will bitch all they want but they're yelling at a brick wall. Necessary code changes will happen whether the lowest common denominator likes it or not because they're fucking disposable shitters that don't contribute anything anyway. "I want antag assistant" is all they'll say, without any real logical argument so they'll be ignored. NT was apparently formed SOLEY in the wake of HG's changes(this isn't true at all) but after playing there for a few months most players have come to realize how shitty sanic oldspeed is and play on sybil now anyway. HG's changes were disliked because they were implemented poorly not because they were a bad idea. Simple mobs moved lightning fast in comparison, for example, but that was eventually fixed so at least HG stayed on to support his changes.

[Incoming]

All I'm saying is if people find the antag game fun and the non antag game boring you're not going to be able to force any of the roll for antag greys to convert to "proper players" no matter what you do.

All this would do is ostracize a significant portion of the player base just because "they're playing the game wrong!".

[paprika]

If people play ss13 to only play antag and suicide or grey tide if they don't get that then yes they are objectively playing the game wrong and need to fuck off.

[Timbrewolf]

If people play ss13 to only play antag and suicide or grey tide if they don't get that then yes they are objectively playing the game wrong and need to fuck off.

This.

We're playing a game that requires a bit of give and take. Imagine sitting down to play hide and go seek with your friends. Randomly it's determined that it's your turn to be the seeker, and half the kids get up and leave in disgust because they don't want to play if they have to hide.

Would you invite them over again to play more games?

[Incoming]

I've always maintained that a steady stream of argumentative and corrosive assholes is an intrinsic part of the ss13 experience, so yeah, probably. I won't say anything more in this thread because I don't want to derail it. You got my opinion.

[iamgoofball]

FUN FACT:

GOING ASSISTANT DOES NOT GIVE YOU PRIORITY IN ROLLING ANTAG.

There is no code in place to do this.

Lemme show you the code for making antags.

Code: Select all

/datum/game_mode/proc/get_players_for_role(var/role)
	var/list/players = list()
	var/list/candidates = list()
	var/list/drafted = list()
	var/datum/mind/applicant = null

	var/roletext
	switch(role)
		if(BE_CHANGELING)	roletext="changeling"
		if(BE_TRAITOR)		roletext="traitor"
		if(BE_OPERATIVE)	roletext="operative"
		if(BE_WIZARD)		roletext="wizard"
		if(BE_REV)			roletext="revolutionary"
		if(BE_CULTIST)		roletext="cultist"


	// Ultimate randomizing code right here
	for(var/mob/new_player/player in player_list)
		if(player.client && player.ready)
			players += player

	// Shuffling, the players list is now ping-independent!!!
	// Goodbye antag dante
	players = shuffle(players)

	for(var/mob/new_player/player in players)
		if(player.client && player.ready)
			if(player.client.prefs.be_special & role)
				if(!jobban_isbanned(player, "Syndicate") && !jobban_isbanned(player, roletext)) //Nodrak/Carn: Antag Job-bans
					candidates += player.mind				// Get a list of all the people who want to be the antagonist for this round

	if(restricted_jobs)
		for(var/datum/mind/player in candidates)
			for(var/job in restricted_jobs)					// Remove people who want to be antagonist but have a job already that precludes it
				if(player.assigned_role == job)
					candidates -= player

	if(candidates.len < recommended_enemies)
		for(var/mob/new_player/player in players)
			if(player.client && player.ready)
				if(!(player.client.prefs.be_special & role)) // We don't have enough people who want to be antagonist, make a seperate list of people who don't want to be one
					if(!jobban_isbanned(player, "Syndicate") && !jobban_isbanned(player, roletext)) //Nodrak/Carn: Antag Job-bans
						drafted += player.mind

	if(restricted_jobs)
		for(var/datum/mind/player in drafted)				// Remove people who can't be an antagonist
			for(var/job in restricted_jobs)
				if(player.assigned_role == job)
					drafted -= player

	drafted = shuffle(drafted) // Will hopefully increase randomness, Donkie

	while(candidates.len < recommended_enemies)				// Pick randomlly just the number of people we need and add them to our list of candidates
		if(drafted.len > 0)
			applicant = pick(drafted)
			if(applicant)
				candidates += applicant
				drafted.Remove(applicant)

		else												// Not enough scrubs, ABORT ABORT ABORT
			break
/*
	if(candidates.len < recommended_enemies && override_jobbans) //If we still don't have enough people, we're going to start drafting banned people.
		for(var/mob/new_player/player in players)
			if (player.client && player.ready)
				if(jobban_isbanned(player, "Syndicate") || jobban_isbanned(player, roletext)) //Nodrak/Carn: Antag Job-bans
					drafted += player.mind
*/
	if(restricted_jobs)
		for(var/datum/mind/player in drafted)				// Remove people who can't be an antagonist
			for(var/job in restricted_jobs)
				if(player.assigned_role == job)
					drafted -= player

	drafted = shuffle(drafted) // Will hopefully increase randomness, Donkie

	while(candidates.len < recommended_enemies)				// Pick randomlly just the number of people we need and add them to our list of candidates
		if(drafted.len > 0)
			applicant = pick(drafted)
			if(applicant)
				candidates += applicant
				drafted.Remove(applicant)

		else												// Not enough scrubs, ABORT ABORT ABORT
			break

	return candidates		// Returns: The number of people who had the antagonist role set to yes, regardless of recomended_enemies, if that number is greater than recommended_enemies
							//			recommended_enemies if the number of people with that role set to yes is less than recomended_enemies,
							//			Less if there are not enough valid players in the game entirely to make recommended_enemies.

You see the word "assistant" in there? No? Then fuck off about it.

There are two outcomes to this that won't result in speshul snoflaek.

1. Assistant cannot be rolled for on station antag slots.

2. Assistant can be rolled for on station antag slots.

You pick one or the other.

[paprika]

start packing your bags

[tunderchief]

start packing your bags

If you refer to the previous discussion, plenty of folks, including those who I believe are pretty experienced with the server, stated that Greyshirts have increased Antag odds. I'm just relaying the prior discussion.

[iamgoofball]

If greyshirts have increased antag spawning chances, then give me some numbers. As I got code right here saying that's bullshit.

For all we fucking know this could just be BYOND being BYOND.

[paprika]

It's the placebo effect tunder.

Wizard rounds aren't actually coded to happen right after each other, but it still happens.

[tunderchief]

It's the placebo effect tunder.

Perhaps, but you know as well as I do it doesn't change the fact that Assistants need to be made less desirable.

[paprika]

We should make them amputees in wheelchairs

[Lovecraft]

What if it's because more people play Assistants so the numbers go up versus say a Virologist
since there's only one job slot for Virology there's going to be a small chance that the Virologist is an antagonist
but if there's a hoard of Assistants on station there's a more likely chance that one of them's an antagonist because there's more of them.
That may all sound really simple and dumb, but the idea that one role is weighted in favor of antagonist slots over the other is already a really stupid thing to get behind so I don't care.

[Jalleo]

Snip

You have quoted the absolute placebo effect of assistants well done Lovecraft this is what we should be stopping from occuring maybe the only way to truly deal with this and to catch out the antagamers are to force this to occur a policy enforcement needs to occur aswell though it cannot be done seperately.

[Stickymayhem]

I think greytiding needs a crackdown, or things need to stay as they are. Assistants are a fun part of the game for myself, especially when I'm not playing one. When an assistant can either save your life, cave your head in with a toolbox or become the acting Captain and you have no idea what the fuck their motivation is for doing so, it adds to the game, even if it means the occasional assistant is looting armory.

Especially recently I've noticed a lot more bans handed out more liberally for that shitty kind of behaviour that results in nothing being added to the round, but I feel like this would actually increase without antag.

Where does the worst shit occur? Extended, when no one at all gets antag and everyone acts out of boredom. The map simply doesn't support enough people in jobs that there won't have to be assistants on the server. So those assistants will act out.

[Gun Hog]

Perhaps Assistants have "higher" chances to be antagonist because there are more Assistants than there are of any other job type. If half the station crew is composed of Assistants, then it should not come as a surprise when half the traitor population are Assistants.

[Timbrewolf]

Code: Select all

    // Ultimate randomizing code right here
   for(var/mob/new_player/player in player_list)
      if(player.client && player.ready)
         players += player

   // Shuffling, the players list is now ping-independent!!!
   // Goodbye antag dante
   players = shuffle(players)

Goofball, the code doesn't have to explicitly state assistants for it to inadvertently give preference to them. The actual randomization process is hidden behind that shuffle function. Is that something we coded or is a part of BYOND itself?

The way it was explained to me how it favors assistants is that when the process is going down the list giving people jobs, people who have signed up as assistants only go through the process first and are stacked at the top of the deck. They're the first people the system confirms are present, have a job, and are ready. It's an unintended glitch. I'm not trying to say there's some conspiracy that purposely gives assistants a higher chance by name. That's just what I was told, and I don't see anything immediately that jumps out to prove/disprove that. The shuffle function seems to be the key process here, the comment implies it doesn't have anything to do with the order you're prepared in. Do we know what the shuffle function does to randomize the player list?

Regardless

there are more Assistants than there are of any other job type

is a major problem. Typically in this past this meant there weren't enough job slots open for our population, but that's not the case anymore. The issue is a large portion of our playerbase just doesn't want to do anything but roll antag and greytide. We need to push them towards playing actual jobs any way we can, and if that doesn't work, start cracking down on greytiding and showing people out the door.

[Cipher3]

As most everyone knows, we are currently drowning in a permanent greytide composed of the most experienced players in the game

This is ridiculously alarmist. Rein yourself in there, cowboy.

So have we established that the code only favors assistants as much as it does in a random probability of drawing a blue marble out of a bag with 16 marbles, 8 blue, 3 red, and 5 yellow?

The way it was explained to me how it favors assistants is that when the process is going down the list giving people jobs, people who have signed up as assistants only go through the process first and are stacked at the top of the deck. They're the first people the system confirms are present, have a job, and are ready. It's an unintended glitch. I'm not trying to say there's some conspiracy that purposely gives assistants a higher chance by name. That's just what I was told, and I don't see anything immediately that jumps out to prove/disprove that. The shuffle function seems to be the key process here, the comment implies it doesn't have anything to do with the order you're prepared in. Do we know what the shuffle function does to randomize the player list?

The only way this setup would favor assistants though is that the yes/no roll of the dice for each player's antag status would reach the desired number of traitors before it has gone through all the rolls. So if this magical shuffle function was thoughtfully assembled, it also would randomize the player list to not favor based on job. Then again, we can hardly assume thoughtfulness in the matter. Investigation, go!

[Incoming]

Goofball, the code doesn't have to explicitly state assistants for it to inadvertently give preference to them. The actual randomization process is hidden behind that shuffle function. Is that something we coded or is a part of BYOND itself?

It's both!

Code: Select all

/proc/shuffle(var/list/shufflelist)
	if(!shufflelist)
		return
	var/list/new_list = list()
	var/list/old_list = shufflelist.Copy()
	while(old_list.len)
		var/item = pick(old_list)
		new_list += item
		old_list -= item

That's shuffle, but what shuffle is relies on pick() chosing randomly through a list, and pick() is a byond rng proc we can't really look at. I'm pretty sure people have run huge runs of pick() to see if it was fair, and the results were that yes, they were.

[iamgoofball]

Idea:

For every 3 people who are in a job other then assistant, a assistant slot opens. Assistants are job assigned last to ensure this works.

Not counting assistants we have enough job slots for 54 players not counting the roundstart AI or cyborg.

Therefore, if all the job slots on Sybil are full up, we get a max of 18 assistants. This way it's not "34 assistants, 10 crewmembers."

[Cipher3]

Except what if a new person joins and can't be assistant?

[iamgoofball]

port MoMMIs from VG

prevent hearing/seeing humans on them

ping all mommis when an assistant slot shows up so they can self destruct which will immediately send them back to lobby.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

Question tho, why don't we try to fill job slots that have no been filled with people currently set as assistants? I know it's technically against their wishes but assistant, to my understanding is more of an overflow role that is given because all the other roles are filled, right? Somehow it feels wrong that someone would go assistant while there is still an important slot remaining.

[Steelpoint]

I'm against forcing players who picked Assistant into playing another role, people playing Assistant may well be new players and the last thing they want is to suddenly be thrusted into a Security or Engineering role, or they may just be someone wanting to goof of and have no responsibilities.

I think that simply heaving reducing Assistants chances, if not outright removing, of being a antag will discourage people from rolling Assistant for the antag slot.

Assistant should be a role if you want to relax or are new, not as the defacto Antag slot to use so you can suicide if you don't get antag.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

Well reducing might be okay but entirely removing... the thing is that, regardless of who actually play assistant, having little to no access makes the challenge for the antag. Captain antag is nowhere as difficult as librarian antag for instance.

My problem is when we have a bunch of people goofing around as assistant, and yet have no chef, no botanist and no chaplain.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

>little to no access
>maint, access to full powergaming toolset which allows you to open any door
Ha.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

Whether assistants have maint access or not is a server setting tho. But yeah i understand.

[Alex Crimson]

is a major problem. Typically in this past this meant there weren't enough job slots open for our population, but that's not the case anymore. The issue is a large portion of our playerbase just doesn't want to do anything but roll antag and greytide. We need to push them towards playing actual jobs any way we can, and if that doesn't work, start cracking down on greytiding and showing people out the door.

Not everyone who plays Assistant is a greytiding, powergaming shit. Some of us just like it because we do not need to do any defined job. You cannot just force people to play a role when they do not want to. People can do whatever they want, as long as it is within the scope of the rules.

As far as i know, greytiding is already a bannable offense. What more do you want? Rather than sucking all the fun out of Assistant role, how about we make other jobs more appealing?

[Kyrah Abattoir]

I still think there should be some kind of incentive to take an active role on the station rather than letting others "deal with that shit".

[Gun Hog]

You do not want people playing Assistant any more, or you want to make it less appealing? Ask SoS to remove their maintenance access. The config option is found in: "Config" folder -> "game_options.txt" -> "ASSISTANTS_HAVE_MAINT_ACCESS".

Just remember though, any actions to nerf the Assistant role can and will be met with player displeasure and resistance. Expect people to leave the server, by will or by force.

[cedarbridge]

You do not want people playing Assistant any more, or you want to make it less appealing? Ask SoS to remove their maintenance access. The config option is found in: "Config" folder -> "game_options.txt" -> "ASSISTANTS_HAVE_MAINT_ACCESS".

Just remember though, any actions to nerf the Assistant role can and will be met with player displeasure and resistance. Expect people to leave the server, by will or by force.

Literally every change is met with "but people will be sad." If the only thing players are around for is to roll for antag and then break shit when they don't get it by tiding around then these aren't really the sorts of people I'd want to be playing with in the first place.

[bandit]

Here's a radical idea: Why not just ban the people who are continually shit as assistant?

[MisterPerson]

This idea's poll is very enlightening. Much more divisive than I thought it would be.

[Scott]

If the point is getting people to play a useful job, then just force it at the selection screen. No assistant slots while there are other job slots available. This way there is no metagaming problem.

[Cipher3]

If the point is getting people to play a useful job, then just force it at the selection screen. No assistant slots while there are other job slots available. This way there is no metagaming problem.

I love how many people can repeat this same idea and totally miss the point of assistant.

[paprika]

The problem with assistants being able to be shitters and antag means that if you ban someone from assistant for being a shitter they're effectively banned from latejoining during extremely high pop and this is kind of a bad thing and while I fully support banning people from assistant I think making assistant less desirable would be a much better way to go about it instead of just banning people from assistant that main assistant.

[Rolan7]

The problem with assistants being able to be shitters and antag means that if you ban someone from assistant for being a shitter they're effectively banned from latejoining during extremely high pop and this is kind of a bad thing and while I fully support banning people from assistant I think making assistant less desirable would be a much better way to go about it instead of just banning people from assistant that main assistant.

> A shitter can't latejoin during extremely high pop
boo freaking hoo

[paprika]

It's kind of a legitimate concern when it comes to grey bans which are being handed out more frequently now (thank god)

[kosmos]

You do not want people playing Assistant any more, or you want to make it less appealing? Ask SoS to remove their maintenance access. The config option is found in: "Config" folder -> "game_options.txt" -> "ASSISTANTS_HAVE_MAINT_ACCESS".

Just remember though, any actions to nerf the Assistant role can and will be met with player displeasure and resistance. Expect people to leave the server, by will or by force.

I would be absolutely okay with this, along with antag-nerf of -50% (or more) smaller chance of getting antag as an assistants.

And for some people leaving the community... Those people are EXACTLY the powergaming antaghunters and/or shitlords. Do we really want those people to stay so much?

These nerfs would do absolutely no harm to the newbies or to the people who just want to have a chill round while actually assisting people, which is what the assistant job slot is for. If you want to build your own maint fort, you can roll for Station Engineer, set up the engine and after that you're absolutely free after that to build your fort and do what you please.

[paprika]

>there are actually people who think the lowest ranking crewmembers on the station should have maint access when medical doctors don't and they have to actually save people dead in maint often

cancer

[Stickymayhem]

I love the greytide, regardless of what I'm playing.

I enjoy that as part of my routine as captain I grab the disk, give the pinpointed to the HoS and toss out two Greys before I get my first cup of coffee.

I like the human rat infestation that is the greytide, and that assistants are totally expendable yet robust sub-humans that you can throw by the dozen at any major threat.

[paprika]

you also love participating in grey tide frequently from what i've seen