Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

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Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby CitrusGender » Tue May 15, 2018 1:09 am #410447

Context: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=17609&view=unread#unread

I've talked to Jaz about this and I felt like the question of whether or not there should be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry has come up. The server essentially has developed its own culture of being almost "medium rp/medium chaos" without a change in the ruleset (which is very cool!) However, there are some concerns about whether or not we should have different expectations of admins and/or players for things such as:

• Events
• Ending the round after a certain point
• Admin conduct
and to a much less extent
• Murder justification

There probably are more things I could add onto here but I'll leave that to the thread to discuss.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Nabski » Tue May 15, 2018 1:18 am #410449

I was one of the original 3 terrymins, but haven't been on as much lately because it's typically covered now. I'll edit this post later with more depth.

Events:
Most of my events one of three categories: Keeping the round moving, Returning dead players to the round, or ending the round.

Ending the round after a certain point:
I strongly felt that rounds shouldn't make it longer than 4 hours ever. I would typically start trying to end the round around the 2 or 3 hour mark. This was mostly so that other people got chances at antagonist as well and people could respawn. The number of players did actively start to creep up when I was active on the server, but now it seems to have gone lower again. Granted I have never been peak European hours.

Admin Conduct:
The key here is to keep things IC. I've pulled off things I could never pull off on the other servers just because the players are chill enough and slow enough to not just jump straight to murder where things look valid.

Murder Justification:
This one largely falls back to rule 1 of don't be a dick. Because the rounds are so much longer being dead is REALLY lame. This one ties back to admin conduct but I was much more permissive of IC fights and conflicts on Terry as long as the players ended up both back in the round.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby DemonFiren » Tue May 15, 2018 1:23 am #410452

Nabski wrote:I strongly felt that rounds shouldn't make it longer than 4 hours ever.

post-2014, everyone

realtalk though, six-hour rounds used to be regular on basil and they were comfy as fuck and "giving people a chance to reroll for antag" being a valid justification just shows how low this place has sunk
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PostThis post was deleted by Nabski on Tue May 15, 2018 1:28 am.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Owegno » Tue May 15, 2018 3:42 am #410491

If you decide a round needs to end after a certain time you are a terrible admin and I support deadminning you immediately. Your job is to be a GM and not just an admin. So use those GM skills to return players who are dead to the round instead of deciding that because the round length has passed an arbitrary number the round must end no matter what. If the round has turned into just a single antag recalling the shuttle so they can do more stuff after murdering a ton of people then yes, force it to end regardless of if the round has gone on for 5 minutes or 5 hours. The length a round is should never be a factor in deciding if you should end the round.

This goes for all servers but especially lowpop servers like Terry. I used to play on basil when it was nearly always sub 20 it was fucking awful to be having fun on a long low pop round only to have an admin log on and decide that they were going to end the round by sending event after event until we gave up and called it quits because the GM was on a power trip and we couldn't win no matter what we did.

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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Ispiria » Tue May 15, 2018 4:14 am #410499

Some of my favorite rounds in this game have been the ridiculous early-morning-weekday 6-hour Sybil extended rounds. Hours long grinds where (most of) the crew come together to cooperate and work on some huge project, whether it's blowing up half of lavaland and then ourselves with the BSA or pimping out the entire whiteship into basically a whole new self-sustaining station more adequate for our crew size. There are always a handful of detractors in these situations, those self-interested dickheads who want the shuttle called so they can roll for their antag, but more often than not these types end up bucklecuffed in the whiteship's shower and then forgotten about until they agree to grab their bucket and shovel and play nicely with the rest of the kids.

If Terry has reached a state of equilibrium where the majority of its lowpop regulars are accustomed to and comfortable with the slower, more casual nature of consistent lowpop rounds, I say godspeed to them and would frown heavily on anyone who might try to encourage them to hurry up and get antagrolling. There's fun to be had in the frantic high energy situations of 80-person Bagil nuke ops, but it seems to me that if the Terry regulars were desperate for that sort of experience, they'd just hop on Bagil for a little while and get their buzz, no? The counterargument here could be that European players deserve that same sort of experience without having to suffer international lag, but life's not perfect.

Regardless, forcibly restarting a 5-hour lowpop traitor round on Terry isn't going to somehow magically inject energy and excitement into the following round. It's just going to reset the process of growing into another 5-hour lowpop traitor round. Until we begin hearing a larger portion of the Terry community actively calling for shorter, faster rounds, it's not right for anyone to try herding them along into playing the way the denser servers do. Not everyone has fun the same way, and just because what Terry may consider fun isn't what a Bagil player might consider fun is no reason to sabotage what Terry's got going on.

All that being said - if an admin wanted to hop on Terry at the beginning of one of their rounds, rather than six hours into it, and actively narrate and guide the round in such a way that it was kept shorter while adding excitement and conflict through admin means, rather than just forcing it to end because "it's been too long", I can't imagine any of Terry's regulars would complain about this. There's a difference between running an event and forcing an event, and this is the line that has to be drawn if anyone's going to have any real fun.

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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby BebeYoshi » Tue May 15, 2018 6:00 am #410506

Ispiria said it all, the best rounds I had were > 2 hours pseudo-extended or extended rounds, pressing a lot of button because the round is going for too long is not something cool unless you have been tracking their progress since the beginning.
But about murder justification, since rounds last longer, players should have better reasons to murdering someone without trying to bring them back to the round since they last longer and beign a ghost is not nice unless there are some cool ghost roles.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby cedarbridge » Tue May 15, 2018 7:37 am #410512

DemonFiren wrote:
Nabski wrote:I strongly felt that rounds shouldn't make it longer than 4 hours ever.

post-2014, everyone

realtalk though, six-hour rounds used to be regular on basil and they were comfy as fuck and "giving people a chance to reroll for antag" being a valid justification just shows how low this place has sunk

I don't think I'm legally allowed to agree with you. Please stop having sensible opinions.

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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Lazengann » Tue May 15, 2018 8:35 am #410514

There's three servers, if you get bored go play on the other two, no need to force a round end. The game has a lot of content that can only shine in those really long rounds.

edit: I'm not referring to just terry

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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby DemonFiren » Tue May 15, 2018 9:45 am #410524

cedarbridge wrote:
DemonFiren wrote:
Nabski wrote:I strongly felt that rounds shouldn't make it longer than 4 hours ever.

post-2014, everyone

realtalk though, six-hour rounds used to be regular on basil and they were comfy as fuck and "giving people a chance to reroll for antag" being a valid justification just shows how low this place has sunk

I don't think I'm legally allowed to agree with you. Please stop having sensible opinions.

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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Gigapuddi420 » Tue May 15, 2018 10:45 am #410533

As someone who has played a bit on Terry but not really enough to be a regular, I might as well throw down on the topic.

On events, it's kind of a tricky balance; people will almost never complain if the event is something passive like a trader or plasma-man embassy, such events don't really hijack a round and provide players something extra to interact with. More ambitious events can be welcome but might want to gauge interest with players beforehand, maybe the round before in OOC? Events always seem kind of hit or miss, they rely on good ideas and players being engaged. I suspect, but can't be sure, that Terry likes events so I wouldn't want to discourage them on my own misgivings. The Terry regulars seem fairly close with admins and like them to take part and typically spawn them things they don't always see.

On round length: I don't really like very long rounds unless I've gone into the round with a big project in mind. Personal preference, I wouldn't enforce a round length on any server because I prefer that rounds are organic and end when players choose. That said, I'm fairly sure servers start to have issues when rounds are extremely long, sometimes see problems with the MC after two or more hours. If there is no problem with stability then rounds should go as long as they organically go for. If I'm a antag and I want my greentext, I will often start fucking the station up until people want to go home or I die. Its a issue that often solves itself.

Admin conduct for Terry should be mostly the same as other servers. I don't mind Terry having a close relationship with admins, some of the players seem a bit entitled on what they expect admins to do for them at any given time. Keep things in character, deal with people breaking the rules and all that usual good stuff. Things can be a bit fast and loose on low pop due to low security, it's good to keep players in the game but my only complaint is to actually look at a problem the station has before it's fixed so I don't have to ahelp again when Centcom offers to fix a engine I broke intentionally.

Escalation and murdering should also work mostly as it does on other servers. Maybe crack down on rule 1 a bit more if people are aggressively escalating a situation to kill another player. Honestly I've rarely come across this problem on Terry. Most people seem cautious and rarely seem to pick fights with me even when I'm from the Delta Lab in space and technically don't belong on their station. I've had a couple situations where I tried to put people down (mostly as AI against a non-human who couldn't grasp that non-humans are a thing) but they were usually resolved peacefully. Sure it's annoying when people die but there are a lot of ways back into the game and damn if some people don't try really hard to die. Like breaking into armory to get lethal weapons to take revenge on someone kind of trying to die.

To sum up, I think Terry should be handled like other servers and their culture should grow organically. Eventually they might get more people and change for better or worse, or maybe they will stay as the same dozen or so players. Treating them with kid-gloves just leads to odd expectations about what admins should be doing for them, otherwise I don't have a issue with Terry getting more admin events and interaction, those 3 hour long shifts get dull.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Bluespace » Tue May 15, 2018 11:29 am #410541

terry should just be no-admin fuckery
sybil should be medium
bagil should be 1 hour shit fests
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Not-Dorsidarf » Tue May 15, 2018 12:14 pm #410546

"There's three servers, if you get bored go play on the other two, no need to force a round end. The game has a lot of content that can only shine in those really long rounds."
this is a pretty good point actually. If you're so bad you're dead on all three servers at once, maybe you should take a nap
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Wyzack » Tue May 15, 2018 1:30 pm #410556

This is literally the exact dillemma we had with bagil before the hub and population swap. Making longbowman mini headmin of basil and giving him some control over it made the server a little nicer while it lasted
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Nabski » Tue May 15, 2018 1:41 pm #410557

I was going to edit my post, but people replied to comments I made. Maybe one day I'll learn that what I say in the short abbreviated version is going to stick and type nilons lengths pages the first time.

There was a large amount of catching on my picking 3-4 hours as an arbitrary time to start restarting the round. There's some comments about server lag/stability as it gets long and that's somewhat true, but really I picked that number because that's when the number of dead disconnected players started to outnumber dead and active (and active is an important thing here, as was commented above if you're not willing to go along with the gang of players that all play together and know each other you just get shoved in a corner and not by security because that never seems to exist). Typically if the crew resisted whatever I did I would back off and send another big thing in another hour. Alot of this would depend on what the traitor (if there was one) was up to. I didn't have much patience for when I would see the one traitor of the round as a changeling with angel wings. I honestly believe that in this situation as a traitor you NEED to be to be making the round more interesting in some way, not just getting your slime extract and moving along. I would often create more traitors if none of the current ones were active, and I think the highest this ever got was 9/14 players were antag. It was fantastic, because despite the fact that more than half the station is traitors no-one started murdering randomly.

The key to "ending the round" well tended to be engagement and foreshadowing, so that people realize this is an issue worth calling the shuttle for. My personal favorite tended to by a team of nuke ops after the crew ordered their 50th round of null crates, with an announcement that the syndicate had tracked their station location somewhere. I was also fond of the slow roll blob. Spawn some pods on the edge of the station, spawn a blobbernaut, spawn just a node (since nodes auto attack and grow in the area), spawn a real blob (depending on player gear and such I often would tell them to stay within some limit). If I had at least 3-5 dead and active in deadchat I would do meteors then sent an ERT with the purpose to help repair the station and call the shuttle. Pirates is an underrated event, because it spawns in 3 players (or more if you make it happen), and they don't have to be dead to ready up and join. Most tended to be semi-friendly (aka not going in guns blazing) and that led to me liking it.

Bad events: The worst two events are Ninja and Slaughter Demon, and both for the same reason. They tend to be high damage, high mobility antagonists that when they win a fight their target is is out of the round for good (ninja net and eating the bodies). Sentient Virus is equally terrible because it has no real way to interact with the crew other than "oh hey we are sick", and there typically aren't enough players to unlock all the types.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Nabski » Tue May 15, 2018 2:00 pm #410558

Another issue/frustration I had was round sameness. If left alone the rounds will only ever trigger traitor and extended. There's some magic to forcing the other modes, but honestly many of them just aren't worth it. Here's what I found did and didn't work.

Monkey - You would be amazing if you weren't broken, because typically it's a conversion that no-one has to die for. If humans win then there'd need to be a bit of respawning going on, or hopefully they will debrain and clone.
Changelings - At most add one of these, they're too frustrating to kill if competent and hivemind with multiples leaves it as just the lings doing their own thing.
Internal Affairs - All murder objectives with no reason to interact with the rest of the crew. I hope you enjoy sitting out for 5 hours or playing golems.
Revolution - YES, but timing is everything on this. It's important to look at how many heads/security there are before triggering this. If the heads and security are being nice reasonable people there'd be no reason for a revolution. The largest cause for this was when there were legitimate IC issues between the crew and heads/security. Keep in mind this means almost everyone will be a revolutionary by the end, and the round does not end. This is my biggest disappointment on the other servers where they honestly don't care about the status of the station when the revolution ends.
Cult(Clock) - Expect everyone to end up converted eventually. Clockwork can be fun if done without the summoning objective because it gives additional ways to build.
Cult(Blood) - You barely have enough players to summon but it can be incredible sometimes. It's like building the DNA vault/BSA, but for summoning an elder god instead. Think of it as a station goal that ends the round. It's worth running every now and then but no more than once per 2 weeks. Again make sure there is a valid sacrifice target. If there isn't one spawn yourself in as the warden and just sit there expecting to die. If you do this do not go hunting, you're there to lose.
Wizard - There's a bunch of off meta wizard builds that can work and be balanced for low pop. The fun here is picking the spells as the admin, deleting the book, then offering it up. For this and many other things I found myself using a dice roller to pick a random player, since some players would observe when they saw me online because they figured out I was offering things to ghosts. The one time I let a fully fledged wizard on the station I regretted it. Even giving them 4 points leads to fireball + something for a bad time. Non-destruction apprentices are also solid. Announcements telling the crew a wizard is coming are a good idea.
Abductors - Yes. Helps lead to special interactions and freedom from rules.
Blood Brothers - Yes. Helps lead to special interactions and freedom from rules.
Revenant - Don't tell me this isn't a game mode. When you've only got 5 crew a good one of these can force a shuttle call. Honestly the hardest part here for the revenant is having enough corpses to unlock any abilities. This works best after about 2 hours once every's settled into whatever they are up to, and maybe with some minor event earlier to introduce corpses. (Crashed clown shuttle is a good one here as it also gives the crew bananrium to work with)
Alien Infestation - Not that good unless you plan to call an ERT. The dream is 1 survivor vs a bunch of aliens who barely makes it out on the shuttle. The reality is you have a bunch of players who now have nothing to kill and no hands.
Blob - Commented in the post above. It also works as just a roundstart antagonist. Make sure you find a way for whomever was the blob to get back in the round after they lose. Going the old route where the person pops into a blob is cool. I've also done it where there's something in the vents.
Nuke Ops - Nuking the station objectives should only be done if you want the round to end. The crew needs basically a declaration of war with no extra TC for there to be any chance, and even then it's still garbage. Budget OPs on the other hand can be fun. Obejectives like "kidnap this player, steal these documents, blow up that specific thing" where they're back and forth to the ship with limited gear is fun. The kidnapped players get to join the crew typically. That being said they're hyper lethal and thus not fun. If they aren't lethal they aren't being seen, which again is not fun. There's things you can do here, but they are hard. There are other/better ruins you can spawn for similar effects of a nearby enemy base.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Tue May 15, 2018 2:15 pm #410559

Events: Events should be well thought out. Spawning a slaughter demon for the lolz to end the round is not well thought out. This would probably disqualify some events that would be well received on Sybil or Bagil. The population needs to be taken into account as well. A team based event will not work since the team would probably be half the server.

Ending the round after a certain point: There should be no real time point when you do this. Only when it gets too laggy. I can really only echo what Owegno said. I do think that doing events to spice things up is fine. Giving RnD a reason to use their toys etc.

Admin conduct: I found an interesting proposal that might work for Terry.

Murder justification: Should be no different than the current rule set for the other servers.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Nabski » Tue May 15, 2018 2:32 pm #410561

Killing someone for killing a dog is valid on the other servers. I disagree that that's acceptable when the round is going to take 3+ hours.

My biggest amusement here is that I loved admining terry because I could just leave it in the background with all chat on and come back every 15-20 minutes to see what everyone has been doing/talking about. I'd always just observe and typically stay out of it unless I was doing an event. I tried playing two or three times but just couldn't do the slower pace.

On the other servers I'll always ready up/join in unless there's a specific event I want to run where being on the station when I hit it makes me a badmin.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby D&B » Tue May 15, 2018 2:51 pm #410562

Seems dumb and honestly stupid that some admins and headmins expect rules to be enforced the same (which was the case before Terry was introduced and Bagil was opened to the hub) and now a thread is opened for an arbitrary enforcement of rules most players won't know unless they have a forum account to keep up (Which frankly speaking most players don't have as can be seen during elections.)

Either set it in hard stone or prepare for a future avalanche of policy discussion threads regarding how "b-b-buh the rules are the same as the other two servers wtf!"
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Armhulen » Tue May 15, 2018 3:21 pm #410569

In a much nicer way I agree with repukan. We worked pretty hard on unified configs, it'd be a shame to reintroduce the confusion with new rules

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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby SpaceInaba » Tue May 15, 2018 3:25 pm #410570

configs =/= policy last I checked
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Armhulen » Tue May 15, 2018 4:02 pm #410572

SpaceInaba wrote:configs =/= policy last I checked

You'd be surprised how much the configs can matter like for example one server having moodlets might change escalation if trolling also deteriorated your mood.

But it doesn't even matter that you're wrong, because at the bottom level having two rule sets for admins and players to remember isn't a good idea

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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Nabski » Tue May 15, 2018 4:48 pm #410576

The rules are still the same. The only difference is where the line is drawing for rule 1.

Bagil where there's 15 traitors and 4 lings executing the guy who has an emag without even notifying a head of staff, trying to figure out if he really "found it in maint", or considering a trial then letting his body rot is par for course.

Doing that on Terry, would be a dick move. At the very least take them to get borged. Congratulations you killed the only traitor of the round! Enjoy your null crates now.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Tue May 15, 2018 4:51 pm #410578

That's not drawing a line, that's directly conflicting with other rules (rule 4).
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby RandomMarine » Tue May 15, 2018 5:25 pm #410584

Admins shouldn't be mashing buttons with intent to put a round to a screeching stop under any normal circumstance.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Nabski » Tue May 15, 2018 6:00 pm #410591

BeeSting12 wrote:That's not drawing a line, that's directly conflicting with other rules (rule 4).


I think you were unclear that I was talking about security's handling of traitors. That being said we have plenty of times where rule four doesn't fully apply. Internals Affairs is the biggest one of those. I've spawned plenty of antagonists and told them "don't do this" and they followed it, but I suppose that falls under rule 0 of listen to the admins.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Owegno » Tue May 15, 2018 6:31 pm #410600

Having different rule enforcement for different servers didn't work in the past on post hub Basil, its not going to do anything here. If the players on Terry already play with more sportsmanship than other servers good on them then, there is no need to enforce the rules differently just because they play differently. If they don't play with more sportsmanship than the players on other servers why suddenly try (and likely fail) to force them to play the game differently?

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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Nilons » Tue May 15, 2018 6:55 pm #410610

owegno is correct
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Tue May 15, 2018 7:39 pm #410624

Nabski wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:That's not drawing a line, that's directly conflicting with other rules (rule 4).


I think you were unclear that I was talking about security's handling of traitors. That being said we have plenty of times where rule four doesn't fully apply. Internals Affairs is the biggest one of those. I've spawned plenty of antagonists and told them "don't do this" and they followed it, but I suppose that falls under rule 0 of listen to the admins.

I'm sorry? Security is not exempted from rule 4 either. It's disappointing to see a lack of understanding of the rules from someone enforcing them tbh.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Limski » Tue May 15, 2018 8:16 pm #410630

no

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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby CitrusGender » Tue May 15, 2018 8:29 pm #410631

I have little to no opinion on the situation of Terry other than I have an appreciation for any attempts to preserve the culture of the server. Perhaps that requires no rule change, maybe some people disagree.

I want to get some input from Terry Admins, however. Terry is a new server that has different expectations than the other ones and there will always be conflicts with rules and precedents in an attempt to preserve some aspect of the server. Whether or not they're valid changes is a different question.

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Honestly, that's what Jazaen is for the server right now. I trust their judgement since they were one of the first people on the server and they're basically a senior to all the Terry admins.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby oranges » Tue May 15, 2018 9:27 pm #410649

treating servers differently further complicates the human nature of the admin team because now rulings are explicitly different between servers, it's only a recipe for further admin drama
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Cobby » Wed May 16, 2018 11:03 pm #410887

DemonFiren wrote:
Nabski wrote:I strongly felt that rounds shouldn't make it longer than 4 hours ever.

post-2014, everyone

realtalk though, six-hour rounds used to be regular on basil and they were comfy as fuck and "giving people a chance to reroll for antag" being a valid justification just shows how low this place has sunk


> Gate most of the cool features and new updates behind being an antag
> Basically can do whatever without having to lookup the Citrusgender-Kor chart of admins

> surprised when people want to play the role

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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby D&B » Wed May 16, 2018 11:13 pm #410889

There shouldn't be a separation as "Sybil admins" or "Bagil admins" or "Terry admins."

They're held to the same standard during candidacy, trial, and acceptance. They're held under the same rules and expectations.

Why somehow furthering the issue of arbitrary enforcement seems like a good idea is beyond me.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby kevinz000 » Mon May 21, 2018 7:14 pm #412093

ending the round because it's gone on "too long" is not great.
throw things for the crew to tackle, but make it reasonable. If they want to keep taking you on, let them and keep it reasonable. Having events going on so it's not just 15 idle powergamers twiddling their thumbs with 2 mechs each is fun. Pressing round enders for the sole purpose of forcefully ending the round is not.

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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Cobby » Mon May 21, 2018 10:21 pm #412128

Terry uses the same configuration/defines as the other servers so it makes sense that 2 hours+ is shitty on Terry despite the roleplay highground when the game is literally balanced currently for <hour long rounds.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to not like being done with the game except for “””””roleplay””””” and wanting to leave to start anew.

I mean you could just leave the server, but at that point why wouldn’t you just stay off terry if you know it happens literally every round lol.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Tue May 22, 2018 12:30 am #412168

Cobby wrote:
DemonFiren wrote:
Nabski wrote:I strongly felt that rounds shouldn't make it longer than 4 hours ever.

post-2014, everyone

realtalk though, six-hour rounds used to be regular on basil and they were comfy as fuck and "giving people a chance to reroll for antag" being a valid justification just shows how low this place has sunk


> Gate most of the cool features and new updates behind being an antag
> Basically can do whatever without having to lookup the Citrusgender-Kor chart of admins

> surprised when people want to play the role

Your pedestal is made of plastic like the rest of your habitat dumb lissssard

Odd, the last part of what the lizard said, just shows how low this place has sunk might have saved you some hassle on explaining why rerolls are used for shuttle justification.

Maybe we need a collaborated code project to give roles that aren't antag more content that isn't even anti-antag.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Tue May 22, 2018 12:57 am #412171

CitrusGender wrote:• Events
• Ending the round after a certain point
• Admin conduct
and to a much less extent
• Murder justification

There probably are more things I could add onto here but I'll leave that to the thread to discuss.

I assume it wouldn't be hard to draw up basic rules for what each server is. If bagil is the half hour self destruct, sybil is normal and terry is arr pee for hooours then you can leave a note out for the admins on what flavour each server is and they'll know what the rub is, after all, the excessive rule page that makes people give up before reading it is to stop players from rules lawyering, not admins, right?

  • events should be obvious as per the tone - button spam is reserved for sawrge, post catgirl disable.
  • ending the round is always permitted provided the method is justified, don't trialmins learn this in adminschool? Immediate end when the game's excessively broken but operable enough to not call MSO, escape shuttle handout with Centcom announcement when everything's gone to heck & no-one has comms console access, meteors when you're running a round start-to-end event that is meteors and a call by Centcom for the crew to stuff the shuttle full of as many goodies as they can to have a party at Centcom (it's the Deathsquad's collective birthday, bring them a cake!) when the crew have done everything/are bored/there are ghosts moping "I'm booored" with all antags dead. It's that easy to run through in your head for any /tg/station RP level, right?
  • admin conduct should be as per the situation, you don't have a big da rules page for admins besides don't spam buttons, right? If you need to tell admins RESTRAIN YOURSELVES! then maybe they shouldn't be an admin or shouldn't ever leave bagil?
  • murder justification should run as normal, probably, otherwise you're going to have to start setting up ban lists per server. It's not even hard, antag item = kill, you're antag = you can kill, you don't know they're antag = don't kill, back off, take them to medbay or the roboticist, whichever's more appropriate if you horizontal them, if they come back at you afterwards then it's all IC from therein. Any muddying the waters means more rules and a culture of players that can't get along if one server goes down.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Shezza » Tue May 22, 2018 10:18 pm #412315

I honestly think that we should allow erp on terry

JUST TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby EvilJackCarver » Tue May 22, 2018 10:46 pm #412327

Shezza wrote:I honestly think that we should allow erp on terry

JUST TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS.


if you really want to shag kevinz just start your own private server and use like ngrok or some shit to get past router port forwarding, dude
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Shezza » Tue May 22, 2018 11:30 pm #412335

EvilJackCarver wrote:
Shezza wrote:I honestly think that we should allow erp on terry

JUST TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS.


if you really want to shag kevinz just start your own private server and use like ngrok or some shit to get past router port forwarding, dude


Tbh i like catgirls more
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Cobby » Wed May 23, 2018 2:18 am #412353

CosmicScientist wrote:
Cobby wrote:
DemonFiren wrote:
Nabski wrote:I strongly felt that rounds shouldn't make it longer than 4 hours ever.

post-2014, everyone

realtalk though, six-hour rounds used to be regular on basil and they were comfy as fuck and "giving people a chance to reroll for antag" being a valid justification just shows how low this place has sunk


> Gate most of the cool features and new updates behind being an antag
> Basically can do whatever without having to lookup the Citrusgender-Kor chart of admins

> surprised when people want to play the role

Your pedestal is made of plastic like the rest of your habitat dumb lissssard

Odd, the last part of what the lizard said, just shows how low this place has sunk might have saved you some hassle on explaining why rerolls are used for shuttle justification.

Maybe we need a collaborated code project to give roles that aren't antag more content that isn't even anti-antag.


No matter how much you throw to nonantag, there’s still going to be a desire to be free from knowing you have to deal with admins for just about anything you do.

This is a problem with having to deal with 50+ random people on the internet and why nostalgiaboys live in a fantasy land where they played with 10-20 people, half of them being their metafriends through previous interactions both before playing and during their stay.

I don’t think there’s a nice answer for that.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Wed May 23, 2018 12:00 pm #412407

That's very absolute. The more there is to occupy players not playing antag, e.g. if you're antag you don't have the time to sit in your department to do your job (even cook currently takes too long to bother poisoning anyone with food, especially during admin events), the less they'll care about having a griff licence.

These jobs always (sometimes with imagination) have something to do in a normal game without antags:
  • Chief Engineer
  • Station Engineer
  • Research Director
  • Scientist
  • Roboticist
  • Geneticist
  • Virologist
  • Chemist
  • Janitor
  • Cook
  • Botanist
  • Quartermaster
  • Shaft Miner

These jobs require willing players and often an imagination to have something to do:
  • Captain
  • Head of Personnel
  • Chief Medical Officer
  • Cargo Technician
  • Medical Doctor
  • Bartender
  • Clown
  • Mime
  • Chaplain
  • Curator
  • AI
  • Cyborg
  • Personal AI

These jobs require antags or greytiders to have something to do and can include all of the last section if they had no imagination or willing players:
  • Head of Security
  • Security Officer
  • Warden
  • Detective
  • Atmospheric Technician
  • Assistant
  • Lawyer


It's hard for me to take, at face value, that giving jobs more things to do, won't reduce BORED NOW CALL SHUTTLE fatigue when last I checked, 2/3rds of jobs, let alone role counts, have nothing to do when there's no antag doing something and that something can include being caught by a golden bolt and given summary execution since that at least gives one member of sec a brief job. There's the station build to do but I only saw that happen on low pop; might as well RP, all access Captain does everything rounds. At least three of the middle section have gained anti-antag gear over the past year and the last three jobs in the bottom list haven't, and prove me wrong, got any gameplay at all.

And much editing was had because this post confused me somehow. To be free from admins is to cause undue shittery and make other players horizontal. Every other rule still applies. Look at the jobs listed above as to who has a consolation prize for not rolling antag and who will shout ;CALL SHUTTLE AM BORED first and then see how many of those fit the pattern I've given.
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jesus.

couldn't have said it better myself.

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this is a REALLY good thread, thank you cosmic

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You now have one "get out of ban free" card

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It's like one of my "whos who in NTR" but with ACTUAL thought and creativity. Good job!

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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby TehSteveo » Wed May 23, 2018 12:51 pm #412416

Don't try to shoehorn different rulesets on different servers. If you do that, you need exclusive admins that know the rules of those servers and nothing else. The past with Bagil didn't work out as expected, as while the mini-headmin position that Longbowman had helped in that he was able to recruit specific admins helped sustain and grow it, it made it really awkward when other admins hopped on the server seeing things enforced that weren't enforced on Sybil. There was an obvious breakdown in that they were admins for /TG/ and not admins for either Sybil or Bagil exclusive, even though admins have their preferences, it caused issues if an admin who wasn't involved in the culture of said server came on and made a ruling to only get cursed out for being a piece of shit Sybil/Bagil admin. The specific configs and what not did not help matters either and further complicating things was the overaggressive attempt to grow Bagil and/or attempt to shutter Sybil from newer players. Obviously it caused the population shift as reality is...players follow where numbers are.

Honestly, if one were to attempt to do separate things with the servers, and have separate rules and configs; there needs to be places where information is stated and admin.txt would have to be divided where one admin doesn't have admin powers on another server, unless granted by leadership or some such. This option honestly I find too much work and I'd advise to just keep everything the same across the board.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Cobby » Thu May 24, 2018 3:38 am #412605

CosmicScientist wrote:That's very absolute. The more there is to occupy players not playing antag, e.g. if you're antag you don't have the time to sit in your department to do your job (even cook currently takes too long to bother poisoning anyone with food, especially during admin events), the less they'll care about having a griff licence.

These jobs always (sometimes with imagination) have something to do in a normal game without antags:
  • Chief Engineer
  • Station Engineer
  • Research Director
  • Scientist
  • Roboticist
  • Geneticist
  • Virologist
  • Chemist
  • Janitor
  • Cook
  • Botanist
  • Quartermaster
  • Shaft Miner

These jobs require willing players and often an imagination to have something to do:
  • Captain
  • Head of Personnel
  • Chief Medical Officer
  • Cargo Technician
  • Medical Doctor
  • Bartender
  • Clown
  • Mime
  • Chaplain
  • Curator
  • AI
  • Cyborg
  • Personal AI

These jobs require antags or greytiders to have something to do and can include all of the last section if they had no imagination or willing players:
  • Head of Security
  • Security Officer
  • Warden
  • Detective
  • Atmospheric Technician
  • Assistant
  • Lawyer


It's hard for me to take, at face value, that giving jobs more things to do, won't reduce BORED NOW CALL SHUTTLE fatigue when last I checked, 2/3rds of jobs, let alone role counts, have nothing to do when there's no antag doing something and that something can include being caught by a golden bolt and given summary execution since that at least gives one member of sec a brief job. There's the station build to do but I only saw that happen on low pop; might as well RP, all access Captain does everything rounds. At least three of the middle section have gained anti-antag gear over the past year and the last three jobs in the bottom list haven't, and prove me wrong, got any gameplay at all.

And much editing was had because this post confused me somehow. To be free from admins is to cause undue shittery and make other players horizontal. Every other rule still applies. Look at the jobs listed above as to who has a consolation prize for not rolling antag and who will shout ;CALL SHUTTLE AM BORED first and then see how many of those fit the pattern I've given.


Yes I agree that it’s not 100% I’m sorry if you felt obligated to post so much.
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Shadowflame909
 
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Thu May 24, 2018 6:47 am #412622

If this does happen, the 0 tc traitor blood-brother mode would be perfect for the atmosphere that terry is at. You can't say that there won't be cool roleplaying scenarios when the atmosphere is already set for you!

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DemonFiren
 
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby DemonFiren » Thu May 24, 2018 11:50 am #412650

>atmos tech requires antag
lmao no
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CosmicScientist
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Thu May 24, 2018 1:03 pm #412660

Cobby wrote:Yes I agree that it’s not 100% I’m sorry if you felt obligated to post so much.

It just looks muchly because I made a list with a bundle of jobs copy/pasted from the wiki.


DemonFiren wrote:>atmos tech requires antag
lmao no

Did they stop taking the hardsuit and fireaxe before buggering off all shift until the scrubbers are needed and then bugger off all shift once the scrubbers are scrubbing?
Go appreciate Nienhaus.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby TehSteveo » Thu May 24, 2018 1:38 pm #412665

CosmicScientist wrote:
DemonFiren wrote:>atmos tech requires antag
lmao no

Did they stop taking the hardsuit and fireaxe before buggering off all shift until the scrubbers are needed and then bugger off all shift once the scrubbers are scrubbing?
Most of those players just go atmos tech hoping for antagonist or something. Honestly, with Atmos Tech you can do some sort of project that can eat a lot time.
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Re: Should there be different expectations of admins and/or players on Terry?

Unread postby Ivan Issaccs » Mon May 28, 2018 2:04 am #413468

I do feel that some oversite on round duration is warranted.
Two or three people can hold essentially a dead round hostage for three hours or more when half the crews suicided or logged out for boredom.
The admins I've seen on Terry seem to be pretty spot on about getting proportional "events" going to get rounds drawn to a conclusion in these cases.
Saw something the other day where a guy had made his own autism fort inside the AI core and was recalling not wanting to leave.
So long as the admins feel fine to come and resolve this without fear of "Waaaaah Terrymeme ruined muh round of roleplaying starving to death inside an armoured server room while my actions just kill the potential of Terry as a server deadmin they post haste!"
I'll be happy.

Generally speaking I'm happy so long as the admins feel comfortable to act as DM's instead of just rules lawyers.
Doesn't mean I want them making themselves godmode antags but they don't have to do that to accomplish this either.

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