/tg/Station 13

by **leibniz** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:27 pm #39607

A slowdown of space movement has happened as part of this change. https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5477
Please do not slow down space movement. Being slow is not fun.

Supposeldy, one of the reasons for this change is nuke ops "moving so fast they can't see each other as they head to the station".
This is not a good reason.
Nuke ops only need to follow these simple steps to not get lost to the station:
1. Actually know the station layout before enabling this antagonist, this isnt much to ask
2. Do not forget to take and turn on your pinpointer like a retard, this will point towards the station
3. Supposedly you have something that resembles a plan, which contains a point of entry, or the first place to attack. Go there.
4. If the previous steps fail, use your radio to ask someone for their location.

Please restore speed. Space is an important part of the game and time spent there should not be filled with agony.

by **Hornygranny** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:03 pm #39619

This concern has been raised with the author, please refrain from bandwagoning ITT until he does something.

by **RG4** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:01 pm #39634

Space update is probably the worst update since movement speed. Like what is point of going to space now or doing creative traitoring/bombings if you move at the slowest possible speed. Hell it even broke buckling in escape pods.

Spoiler:

by **Durkel** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:24 am #39645

Potentially related? No gravity makes travel within the station a herculean task. You move slow as balls when hugging the walls with gravity off. REALLY ANNOYING.

by **RG4** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:10 am #39653

Durkel wrote:Potentially related? No gravity makes travel within the station a herculean task. You move slow as balls when hugging the walls with gravity off. REALLY ANNOYING.

Throwing shit doesn't even help.

by **Gun Hog** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:23 am #39675

Hyperzine seems to be ignored by magboots as well. Also, I believe that it is intended that holding things in your hands while hugging a wall slows you down further.

by **MisterPerson** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:59 am #39679

It might be too slow. These things are hard to gauge alone. Jetpacking might also be too slow specifically, but I feel my "nuke ops don't form teams because they can't follow each other" theory is at least plausible enough to try for a week. Speed stuff is trivial to tweak and I hope other people who feel strongly about this feel free to change the numbers around. I'd hate to see spacemovement actually get faster than running though, much less back to what it once was.

I was always annoyed that spacemovement was fast, which just defied all logic and design sense. How is maneuvering yourself in zero g by crawling along a wall with your hands somehow faster than running? Additionally it created this scenario where anyone in space could maneuver around the station faster than someone actually on it and enabled those always hated "criminal in space marauding around, ambushing people, and fleeing to space where they can't get caught" tactics that security hates so much. There was also the fact that turning the gravity gen off was superior to having it on, which was just retarded on so many levels. Now there's a really good reason to have it on making it fitting of its super secure location.

Yes there were bugs introduced, I've already fixed them. This isn't even the right place to report them.

And don't act like this was my idea Hornygranny you're the one who suggested it in the first place. I was going to leave things alone until you said you wanted slower space movement speed.

by **paprika** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:17 am #39682

Is current space speed as fast as default runspeed on the station?

by **Incomptinence** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:30 am #39684

Nuke ops were performing pretty well anyway.

As for how space movement could be quicker than running in an atmosphere. There are things like no drag, no gravity pulling you back down and the fact that there are points in human movement in terrestrial environments where humans exert brief bursts of speed before falling down again like say jumping.

by **MisterPerson** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:05 am #39690

paprika wrote:Is current space speed as fast as default runspeed on the station?

It's as about as slow as being hungry.

Incomptinence wrote:Nuke ops were performing pretty well anyway.

As for how space movement could be quicker than running in an atmosphere. There are things like no drag, no gravity pulling you back down and the fact that there are points in human movement in terrestrial environments where humans exert brief bursts of speed before falling down again like say jumping.

Do you seriously think you could move around that fast and not accidentally slip and fall off the station? If you'd like, assume that I simply reduced the chances of spaceslipping when in walk mode (which is what I was going to do originally) and then automatically put everyone in walk mode when in space because you would literally never want to run.

Besides let's cut the realism argument and focus on the one anybody actually gives a shit about, the gameplay one.

by **Incomptinence** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:27 am #39703

Well you brought realism up first but okay sure I am always for discarding that to focus on game play.

by **RG4** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:37 pm #39738

Being able to move quickly in space produced a fun gameplay aspect, if you were an antag you'd be able to escape the law or valid hunters trying to game at you or you can just be the hero the station needs looking out for the antags. Only way you can ever enter space without dying eventually is having a space suit or hard suit, jetpacks were only mandatory if you wanted to be able to maneuver and go faster. You would be able to throw items or use a fire extinguisher as a jury rigged jetpack to aide in movement but you'd be able unable to change direction without those. On the topic of Nuke Ops has that really been that big of an issue that they weren't able to see each other getting to the station? Mostly recently I've seen Ops get lost because everyone split up or someone drifted too far.

by **cedarbridge** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:45 pm #39751

RG4 wrote:On the topic of Nuke Ops has that really been that big of an issue that they weren't able to see each other getting to the station? Mostly recently I've seen Ops get lost because everyone split up or someone drifted too far.

This is what I want to know. I feel like this is another "fix" for a problem that didn't exist in the first place.

by **RG4** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:26 pm #39765

cedarbridge wrote:
RG4 wrote:On the topic of Nuke Ops has that really been that big of an issue that they weren't able to see each other getting to the station? Mostly recently I've seen Ops get lost because everyone split up or someone drifted too far.

This is what I want to know. I feel like this is another "fix" for a problem that didn't exist in the first place.

If you want Nukes Ops to be slower in space then make their harness be slower than an actual jetpack, don't fuck over everything else.

by **MisterPerson** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:49 pm #39774

Why do you need to move so goddamn fast through space?

by **Aranclanos** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:56 pm #39777

I had a nuke round today, I really liked how nobody got instantly lost and everyone was able to stay together, at least before arriving the station. But still it feels kinda slow, I didn't have one yet with the new speed, but spacebattles were kinda exiting for the high speeds. What are the speeds ranges that we can get?

by **Cipher3** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:08 pm #39805

MisterPerson wrote:Why do you need to move so goddamn fast through space?

Because otherwise going just around part of the station takes forever. Plus this ruins theoretical odds of perma escapes. And honestly, I've almost never had trouble keeping up with other nuke ops except when for my first time or theirs.

by **RG4** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:50 pm #39813

Hell you loose more jetpack fuel than you keep now since they go at a snails pace. If you using you can go from max tank to half tank in a few minutes. So regardless why and what was the need of making space slow as fuck and literally no fun at all? So Nuke Ops don't get lost, they got radios and 9/10 they end up at the same airlock,because they get lost and drift off into space, that has. to happen to everyone at some point.

by **Incomptinence** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:49 pm #39828

Maybe give nuke ops a ping like drones so they can group up again more easily? They are implanted to blow up why not have a side perk.

by **Dorsidwarf** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:50 pm #39829

1) there seems to be a lot of a handful of people agreeing with each other over and over
2) Jetpacks should be fast, so you have a reason to sacrifice your back slot for it
3) nuke op packs can just be slower then, or use their radios for once
4) literally everything else is good
5) turning off gravity should make your sprite prone for das real-isms.

by **Incomptinence** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:54 pm #39832

I dunno spending more time drifting semi helplessly sounds like terrible game play.

by **MMMiracles** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:39 pm #39850

This change more or less destroys any chance of a perma prisoner even getting remotely close to freedom if they attempt a space breakout. Same with the those who get stunned and chucked out an airlock. In both scenarios before, it was possible to make it back into the station, maybe nearly dead, but back in noneless.

Now, with how ungodly slow you move, by time you even reach the general area of an airlock, you've probably dropped into critical and left to die. Not a big fan of the change, pls revert/fix.

you can keep the slipping away though, its god awful.

by **Saegrimr** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:42 pm #39851

MMMiracles wrote:Now, with how ungodly slow you move, by time you even reach the general area of an airlock, you've probably dropped into critical and left to die. Not a big fan of the change, pls revert/fix.

Actually I doubt you'd make it to the sec lockers window. The slowdown from space cold + damage stacks with the slowed space movement.
Even slower than walking while near crit on the station.

by **RG4** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:36 am #39867

Saegrimr wrote:
MMMiracles wrote:Now, with how ungodly slow you move, by time you even reach the general area of an airlock, you've probably dropped into critical and left to die. Not a big fan of the change, pls revert/fix.

Actually I doubt you'd make it to the sec lockers window. The slowdown from space cold + damage stacks with the slowed space movement.
Even slower than walking while near crit on the station.

Now add space carp to the mix of things and you got a recipe for fun.

by **LNGLY** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:29 am #39880

Someone said that the reason for raping space movement was to 'make it so nuke ops can stick together in space instead of losing each other because of how fast they are.'

If that's the case, just code and sprite this as part of the Syndicate kit and put it near the exit hatch.

by **Oldman Robustin** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:50 am #39924

Plz don't ruin space because flukeops

Flukeops lose each other on station if they don't in space, it's a non-issue trying to make bad players better.

Even jetpacks feels like I'm trying to push through space in a fucking wheelchair.

by **Lumbermancer** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:17 am #39941

Welp.

Space sucks even harder now.

by **Random Players** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:56 pm #39956

I personally like slow space. But I'm also the kind of person that wants a hull breach to litterally suck the air and anyone standing too close out.

by **Kavaloosh** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:35 pm #40001

welp, escaping perma is impossible now

good work

by **TheWiznard** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:31 am #40119

I like slow space...sorta kinda

I think on station w/o gravity it's the best to be really slow, because then all the fuckers who run around 24/7 on not help intent get their shit wrecked when they wind up pushing an officer across the hallway etc.

I think in space space though the magboots and jetpack should allow you to move sanic.

I'm not gonna say that walking across the asteroid was slow but now you have the choice of 3 minutes on the asteroid or 5 minutes taking the "shortcut" through space.

by **cedarbridge** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:22 am #40140

TheWiznard wrote:I like slow space...sorta kinda

I think on station w/o gravity it's the best to be really slow, because then all the fuckers who run around 24/7 on not help intent get their shit wrecked when they wind up pushing an officer across the hallway etc.

I think in space space though the magboots and jetpack should allow you to move sanic.

I'm not gonna say that walking across the asteroid was slow but now you have the choice of 3 minutes on the asteroid or 5 minutes taking the "shortcut" through space.

Magboots should be standard run/walk speed. They're just allowing you to walk normally without slipping (which no longer exists) and without drifting on walkable tiles. Since you already don't drift in space areas (solars) they're ironically not really that useful outside of the station anymore.)

Jetpacks going slow makes no sense at all though. I mean, I always thought it was silly that a jetpack didn't rocket you down a hallway uncontrolled if activated in normal station conditions. Having them lurch you slowly through space as though it were custard or something just doesn't make sense to me.

by **Steelpoint** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:09 am #40164

I should note from my experience that this change has not made it harder for Nuke Ops to lose each other.

by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:02 am #40170

How the hell would it, it doesn't really matter if they all go equally fast or equally slow. That's a really funny reasoning.

by **Steelpoint** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:10 am #40185

In addition, this change has severally neutered space based antagonists, since they are so painfully slow its extremely easy to cut them off not to mention they are painfully unable to do anything. Or it turns into a game of wasting 10 minutes watching a Wizard slowly move across the station exterior.

by **LNGLY** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:20 pm #40207

If the author knows that this is a problem why hasn't it been changed yet, it should take around five minutes to do

Coders really ought to stop ignoring the entire community when they say 'that change you made SUCKED COCK'. The server doesn't exist to cater to you solely, coderdudes.

by **TheWiznard** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:05 pm #40235

LNGLY wrote:If the author knows that this is a problem why hasn't it been changed yet, it should take around five minutes to do

Coders really ought to stop ignoring the entire community when they say 'that change you made SUCKED COCK'. The server doesn't exist to cater to you solely, coderdudes.

Some coders might do shit that everyone hates, but they are doing it not cause they hate everyone who plays the game. The people who code for the server do it out of their own free time, and I don't really have a problem with them doing what they want most of the time. It's perfectly fine to complain about changes they make that may or may not be good, but in some ways yes the server does need to cater to or catch the coders interest; because without them where do you think we would be?

by **Miauw** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:03 pm #40256

TheWiznard wrote:If the author knows that this is a problem why hasn't it been changed yet, it should take around five minutes to do

because sos does not update the server every five minutes.

by **RG4** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:02 pm #40263

The only good thing with the space update is that Lord Singlo is an even bigger threat than any antag ever now.

by **leibniz** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:07 pm #40264

RG4 wrote:The only good thing with the space update is that Lord Singlo is an even bigger threat than any antag ever now.

I dont think most of us have an issue with the drifting, this thread is mainly about the speed change that was done

by **RG4** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:08 pm #40285

leibniz wrote:
RG4 wrote:The only good thing with the space update is that Lord Singlo is an even bigger threat than any antag ever now.

I dont think most of us have an issue with the drifting, this thread is mainly about the speed change that was done

Which needs to be changed back.

by **kevinthezhang** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:16 pm #40302

Man low speed sucks so bad how this probably extended the time it takes to make a full station traversal (from the outside) by like 8x

by **lumipharon** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:05 pm #40317

This is exceedingly no fun, and making EVA a massive chore. It also makes no sense for drifting through space, where logically Ishould beable to just push off as hard as I can,and zoom off.

And I don't know if this is related/has even changed, but yesterday I was in a space fight with a traitor, and when I was firing my e-gun while drifting, it was propelling me as if I was firing bullets, not firing a laser gun (or are taser shots supposed to not be energy like actual lasers?

by **Saegrimr** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:10 pm #40319

Taserwalking has kind of been a thing for a while for the unlucky secborg who spaced himself.

by **Braincake** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:13 pm #40338

That was only because of taser electrodes counting as something you could push off of, so the borg could spam them and keep a direction key pressed for a small push. Incredibly unreliable, though.

With this new spacedrifting stuff I've gotten stuck in space a few times, and throwing something only pushed me 1 or 2 tiles away before stopping again. Is this intended?

by **Oldman Robustin** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:50 am #40435

Another HILARIOUS side-effect of this awful change:

Altering your move speed (through chemicals or faster space suits) make you faster in space. Hyperzine somehow makes your jetpack super effective.

by **MisterPerson** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:02 am #40707

Sadly it seem slow jetpacking did nothing to help nuke ops, based on the feedback I've gotten. The current plan is to make jetpacking fast again and try something else to keep nuke ops together. Also the general slow on nogravity movement is a bit much, so I'll raise that up a bit too too.

kevinthezhang wrote:Man low speed sucks so bad how this probably extended the time it takes to make a full station traversal (from the outside) by like 8x

WAD, go inside and risk getting seen if you want to go fast. Being in space is for when you want to hide and be safe. Now you have to pick one instead of getting both.

Steelpoint wrote:In addition, this change has severally neutered space based antagonists, since they are so painfully slow its extremely easy to cut them off not to mention they are painfully unable to do anything. Or it turns into a game of wasting 10 minutes watching a Wizard slowly move across the station exterior.

The gem encrusted hardsuit is more so you have somewhere to hide than moving around quickly. If you just wanted to traverse the station, take jaunt or teleport. Lings got unnecessarily nerfed, agree with that. The lingsuit ability was already marginal and now it's just awful. Same applies to the spacesuit-in-a-box for traitors. Nuke ops I discussed above, I was thinking the increased chance of sticking together and general slowdown of everyone else would offset their loss of speed, but that wasn't the case. So yeah they got nerfed too and that'll be fixed. You say people in space are MORE likely to get noticed? Good, that nullifies the fears I had about rev where it would be the other way around and hiding heads of staff would be impossible to catch because the people searching wouldn't be able to cover much ground.

by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:52 am #40767

MisterPerson wrote:I'll raise that up a bit too too.

Why not just bloody revert it, what purpose does it serve?

Who the hell actually uses space for hiding?

by **MisterPerson** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:19 am #40795

All the people bitching about how slow it is, for one.

by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:55 am #40799

Okay, can you just tell everyone what problem did you try to fix and how this fixed it and why is it worth huge hate towards this change and people dying to 1x1 space tile hull breach in packs. Seriously, just yesterday I saw 4 corpses near one broken window.

by **MisterPerson** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:24 pm #40804

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Okay, can you just tell everyone what problem did you try to fix and how this fixed it and why is it worth huge hate towards this change and people dying to 1x1 space tile hull breach in packs. Seriously, just yesterday I saw 4 corpses near one broken window.

Antagonists hiding in space, mostly. I wanted to make that an unattractive option vs staying on the station or at least an option with some legitimate downsides.

Had a discussion with the second issue and the consensus seemed to be that the cold slowdown was needed to make hull breaches sufficiently dangerous.