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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:22 am #422535

I do suicide on warops or cult if I dont feel like playing high effort gamemodes, banning people without being 100% sure he is doing an offense seems dumb



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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby DemonFiren » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:36 am #422538

so what's wrong with the suggestion that ghosts/suicides wait 10 minutes before being eligible for ghost roles?
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby NikNakFlak » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:10 pm #422540

Ayy Lemoh wrote:
NikNakFlak wrote:making it so it doesn't announce the war until they take all they finish spending all their TCs or something is the way to go.

Let's assume that if the nuke ops press the button to open nuke op shuttle doors, the war announcement will pop up. That is the only good method I can think of besides BUY ONE ITEM AND IMMEDIATELY GET FUCKED or YOU HAVE TO SPEND ALL YOUR TC OR ELSE NOTHING HAPPENS LMAO UBER STEALTH WAR OPS IS THE META NOW LMAO. There is nothing else different. One could finish buying all their items, wait until they can go to the station, and then open the shutter.

You would have basically one minute to prepare assuming the nuke disk holder isn't getting fucked over by someone.

If it works in a way where the nuke ops have PLENTY of time to prepare but are forced to wait in the outpost for 15 minutes after the announcement pops up then the following possibilities occur:
A. If shuttle can't be called until war op announcement then people are going to know the peaceful round is war ops when they try to call the shuttle at 30 minutes and it won't let them.
B. If shuttle can be called then rest in peace peaceful shifts since they would probably just assume it's war ops if nothing happened by 00:30:00
C. this is the most boring and frustrating thing i can think of where it pisses off both people who want action and people who prefer calmer interactions.


This was one suggestion, of course it would have to be coded in a way that's still fair. Your dumb filthy frank reply isn't going to change the fact that there's a problem that needs addressing. Fuck your tl;dr

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Lazengann » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:58 pm #422543

DemonFiren wrote:so what's wrong with the suggestion that ghosts/suicides wait 10 minutes before being eligible for ghost roles?

It's a solution for a problem that doesn't exist and I don't want to waste ten minutes of my life before I can have fun again

Edit: If people are willing to risk being completely unable to play just for a chance of having fun then god bless them, maybe we should make the game mode better so they don't do that

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Grazyn » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:02 pm #422544

I usually commit suicide when ops/blob is announced not because I want to roll antag but because I'd rather observe and comment in deadchat than play those rounds

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Nabski » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:14 pm #422552

Blobs not even a mode anymore.
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Cobby » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:49 pm #422557

@Nik @Ayy

You could just have it announced on shuttle move and make the transition longer lol
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby bandit » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:10 pm #422583

iamgoofball wrote:a randomized 5-10 minute delay on going from death to ghost role would probably help here a lot


...this is actually a legitimately good idea I'm proud of you goof
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Saegrimr » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:11 pm #422584

Saegrimr wrote:As long as it doesn't fuck with ashwalker/golem/whatever ghost spawner menu roles exist. I unironically like to dick around on that rusted station full of hivebots when the round is shit.


Felt like restating.
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Dr_bee » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:18 pm #422682

bandit wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:a randomized 5-10 minute delay on going from death to ghost role would probably help here a lot


...this is actually a legitimately good idea I'm proud of you goof


Just weighting it based on time dead would be a less painful solution for the player, sure you can suicide for antag rolls but if it is a 0.0001% chance for them to get the roll for 5 minutes after death it would naturally be discouraged.

Plus it would solve the edge case of there being no other ghosts for the random ghost roll besides the one asshole who died 2 minutes ago

Dont punish all people who play ghost roles for a freaking edge case that is suiciding for random antag status.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby RogueSteampunker » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:26 pm #422993

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:why do you have to kill yourself if you hate the roundtype so intensely you cant stand to exist in it? why dont you just... tab out. boot up the other server or something.


Because joining a game roundstart and being told that all your setup is being interrupted by "that one roundtype where the captain runs around and gets slaughtered, the heads fight OPs, and the AI is guranteed to be more an antag than the actual OPs", and find that the other server had already been pillaged of resources by the assistants. Suicide is the only option without just closing out of tg, since roundstart can make all the difference, and war OPs basically tosses it out the window.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Saegrimr » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:29 pm #422994

RogueSteampunker wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:why do you have to kill yourself if you hate the roundtype so intensely you cant stand to exist in it? why dont you just... tab out. boot up the other server or something.


Because joining a game roundstart and being told that all your setup is being interrupted by "that one roundtype where the captain runs around and gets slaughtered, the heads fight OPs, and the AI is guranteed to be more an antag than the actual OPs", and find that the other server had already been pillaged of resources by the assistants. Suicide is the only option without just closing out of tg, since roundstart can make all the difference, and war OPs basically tosses it out the window.


At least with war ops you get some forward notice to not bother starting any projects unlike stealth ops or wizards that don't immediately spawn guns/events
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby ShadowDimentio » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:19 am #423321

Fucking no. Ask to be ghosted by an admin.
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Gamarr » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:49 pm #423494

To summarize bullshit,

Lumbermancer wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Why is this an issue

If the game mode makes you kill yourself, that's probably an issue.


The warops group is scaled by the stations pop. One quarter or half (just a random ass number) suicides because the mode is ass, suddenly the team is skewing that fight in its favor just by declaring war. Not including them buying reinforcements/borgs. It is kind of an issue.

D&B wrote:Ghosting is the I don't want to play anymore command.

Bingo. Bet you see similar shit in blood cult, too, as working against them or fucking off can lead to cultbans.

A cooldown on being able to use spawners after dying if you are not a direct observer from the lobby menu sounds like a fine and dandy idea but that was hardly the highlight of this whole shindig.
If it hasn't been noticed yet, there's a distaste for the mode or more specifically, shit like warops. For me? They're boring. Some people would rather opt-out, including myself, than even bother going it. So when I die when that war declaration happens, it is not to try getting on their team.

I just can't be fucking arsed to care about another damn op round.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Grazyn » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:00 pm #423504

Gamarr wrote:To summarize bullshit,

Lumbermancer wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Why is this an issue

If the game mode makes you kill yourself, that's probably an issue.


The warops group is scaled by the stations pop. One quarter or half (just a random ass number) suicides because the mode is ass, suddenly the team is skewing that fight in its favor just by declaring war. Not including them buying reinforcements/borgs. It is kind of an issue.


This is a common argument and the common response is that those who commit suicide are usually people who wouldn't have made a difference anyway against the ops, unless you used them as cannon meat to choke the nuke ops' guns

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby oranges » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:58 pm #423658

It's not as big an issue as people are making out, and it really only comes into play very early in cult and rev rounds.

Everyone arguing for any other reasons are mostly strawmanning things that don’t' matter.
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Dr_bee » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:56 am #423748

maybe the issue is the frequency of nuke ops? short rounds are nice every once and awhile, but nuke ops feels rather common, and you cant get any projects done on them or typically short round types.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby EagleWiz » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:28 am #423769

I'll just admit that on rare occasion when I've been really bored or in a murderboney mood I'd join as a greyshirt to roll for antag, and then immediately suicide to roll for ashlizard or the hopes of a quick admin-antag-spawn when I don't get antag.
Its not a regular thing, but its a thing, and I'm by no means the only player who has done this.
And the thing of it is, I can't even think of a single defense for leaving the ability to do so in the game. Its clearly just someone who already rolled for antag trying to do so again because they would rather click the spessmen until they fall down then play the game any other way, and yes I have on occasion been that asshole, but I can't defend this as a perfectly valid playstyle that should in no way be discouraged.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Cobby » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:38 am #423774

We’re not going to start gutting modes or reworking them ourselves to fit the small, however vocal they may appear on theforums, minority who suicides during them.

Also every “I want to not play as that character anymore” option whether it’s suiciding or suicide-for-the-restrained (ghosting), it should be treated the same. My only issue here is people who use any method to avoid conversion so much they had to code a pity-feature for it in at least one mode.
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Nilons » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:34 pm #423818

Should just put it as a message if you suicide on war ops, something that says suiciding purely with the intent to get nukie ghost roles is bannable and then follow up if anyone does.
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Dr_bee » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:15 pm #423826

Cobby wrote:We’re not going to start gutting modes or reworking them ourselves to fit the small, however vocal they may appear on theforums, minority who suicides during them.

Also every “I want to not play as that character anymore” option whether it’s suiciding or suicide-for-the-restrained (ghosting), it should be treated the same. My only issue here is people who use any method to avoid conversion so much they had to code a pity-feature for it in at least one mode.


Pity feature for avoiding conversion is requesting a Cult ban like me and several other people have done. I would rather play nothing at all than that shitty mode, and asking for a ban at least frees my character up for someone who enjoys playing it.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Dr_bee » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:32 pm #423829

Also I just checked the round chances and nuke ops has a 19% chance to roll. 1 in 5 rounds being nuke ops is a tad too much for how short and samey those rounds can be, dont you think? maybe drop 10% or so off of that and put 5% in extended and 5% in wizard or something.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Hathkar » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:56 pm #424145

Dr_bee wrote:Also I just checked the round chances and nuke ops has a 19% chance to roll. 1 in 5 rounds being nuke ops is a tad too much for how short and samey those rounds can be, dont you think? maybe drop 10% or so off of that and put 5% in extended and 5% in wizard or something.


Yeah, 19% feels like a bit much. I think wizard is fine at 11.9% A small bump to extended and maybe traitorchan/traitor would be a better choice in my opinion.
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:07 pm #424169

i didnt read this thread past the firs tpost

my two cents is you should always be allowed to suicide on any round type as long a syoure not blatantly rolling for antag
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:10 am #424244

Hathkar wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Also I just checked the round chances and nuke ops has a 19% chance to roll. 1 in 5 rounds being nuke ops is a tad too much for how short and samey those rounds can be, dont you think? maybe drop 10% or so off of that and put 5% in extended and 5% in wizard or something.


Yeah, 19% feels like a bit much. I think wizard is fine at 11.9% A small bump to extended and maybe traitorchan/traitor would be a better choice in my opinion.


Traitor chan is fine where it is. Changeling op cancer should stay rare. It being too high is what gave the fanbase a huge hatred for it.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Dr_bee » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:33 am #424285

Shadowflame909 wrote:
Hathkar wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Also I just checked the round chances and nuke ops has a 19% chance to roll. 1 in 5 rounds being nuke ops is a tad too much for how short and samey those rounds can be, dont you think? maybe drop 10% or so off of that and put 5% in extended and 5% in wizard or something.


Yeah, 19% feels like a bit much. I think wizard is fine at 11.9% A small bump to extended and maybe traitorchan/traitor would be a better choice in my opinion.


Traitor chan is fine where it is. Changeling op cancer should stay rare. It being too high is what gave the fanbase a huge hatred for it.


Recent changes to changeling's make the hivemind changeling deathsquad a much riskier thing to do, since lings get bonuses for eating their own and even have objectives counter to each other. Consider raising the chance of traitor/ling or add ling only mode back in so we can see how these changes work out more.

As much as I hate lings, the recent changes have been a move in the right direction and I would hate to see nuke ops see a ling level of hate.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:43 am #424298

Repeat rounds suck. But the changelings dont need to be more common. It's not fun fighting an antagonist you can't beat alone. If they're semi decent they can take out an entire sec team. The worst part is that they come in fours. So at least one person takes out your entire sec team, and you have to deal with the traitor combo that comes with them. If you're not an antag during traitor lings, you have no chance. That's all.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby EagleWiz » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:41 am #424309

Possibly outside the scope of this thread but repeat rounds suck for everything other then traitor IMO, and tweaking the RNG to make duplicate rounds less common would be a welcome change for most.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Nabski » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:16 pm #424617

BeeSting12 wrote:i didnt read this thread past the firs tpost

my two cents is you should always be allowed to suicide on any round type as long a syoure not blatantly rolling for antag


Thank you for summing up the first five posts before people dove into the minutia.
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Pizzatiger » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:50 am #424794

I don't see the problem with antag rolling during nuke ops if your not an important role. What is an virologist going to do during nuke ops that the 20 assistants who already looted the armory can't do better. Becoming a ghost role that way is still not guaranteed and offers up a healthy supply of ghosts for whatever plan the nuke ops have.

Nobody has explained why this is a bad thing or how it harms the game for the other players yet.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby subject217 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:18 am #424809

Pizzatiger wrote:Nobody has explained why this is a bad thing or how it harms the game for the other players yet.

When you allow this sort of behavior it tends to compound. A couple of people suiciding because they don't like war ops is okay, half the station suiciding is not. Even then, nobody gets banned for suiciding in the mode occasionally IMO, especially if you don't take ghost roles afterwards.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:33 am #424832

I don't think this is a war ops only issue though. You'll have roundstart suiciders every round if they don't get traitor. They're probably dead before the war ops even get announced.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Nilons » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:24 pm #424855

Shadowflame909 wrote:You'll have roundstart suiciders every round if they don't get traitor.

completely separate issue and im pretty sure people already get banned for it if they do it too much
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Grazyn » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:32 pm #424858

There should be a "return to lobby if not antag" option, this would reduce such suicides and allow them to go straight to observe if they don't want to play

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:32 pm #424868

Nilons wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:You'll have roundstart suiciders every round if they don't get traitor.

completely separate issue and im pretty sure people already get banned for it if they do it too much


Hint: It isn't, it's not actionable unless they go from sybils lobby to bagil to instantly re-roll for antag. Confirmed by several admins

Also how is this situation any different? You figure out the round type. You didnt get traitor, then you play sudoku

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Nilons » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:59 pm #424871

Shadowflame909 wrote:
Nilons wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:You'll have roundstart suiciders every round if they don't get traitor.

completely separate issue and im pretty sure people already get banned for it if they do it too much


Hint: It isn't, it's not actionable unless they go from sybils lobby to bagil to instantly re-roll for antag. Confirmed by several admins

Also how is this situation any different? You figure out the round type. You didnt get traitor, then you play sudoku

In nuke ops if they declare war you can be fairly certain there will be ghost roles right away, other gamemodes its a coin toss.

you saying it isnt actionable except for the times where it is doesn't really change the fact that it is according to policy
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Gamarr
 
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Gamarr » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:31 pm #425069

Pizzatiger wrote:Nobody has explained why this is a bad thing or how it harms the game for the other players yet.


Yes I did.
Several modes antag numbers are scaled, afaik purely, on the stations population at the start of the round. It's one of the few metrics that was used (though this could be wrong and I'd love to hear that it takes more into account but honestly doubting this). A quarter of the present crew suicides because 'lolnorantag' means that now the whole formula for the numbers are skewed entirely towards the antagonist side for said round.

So yes, them suicides matter because they joined the start, bloated the station and jacked up the changeling/traitors/op numbers, and then removed themselves from the actual mode they helped influence and create.

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby Cobby » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:58 pm #425398

@Gamarr they’re based off station numbers and math unique to the mode
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby subject217 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:55 pm #425434

Grazyn wrote:There should be a "return to lobby if not antag" option, this would reduce such suicides and allow them to go straight to observe if they don't want to play

the funny thing is this actually exists and all the experienced antag rollers use it

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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:58 pm #425437

subject217 wrote:
Pizzatiger wrote:Nobody has explained why this is a bad thing or how it harms the game for the other players yet.

When you allow this sort of behavior it tends to compound. A couple of people suiciding because they don't like war ops is okay, half the station suiciding is not. Even then, nobody gets banned for suiciding in the mode occasionally IMO, especially if you don't take ghost roles afterwards.

If half the station suicides because of the gamemode then it's a problem with the gamemode, not the players.
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Re: You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

Unread postby subject217 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:04 pm #425439

BeeSting12 wrote:If half the station suicides because of the gamemode then it's a problem with the gamemode, not the players.

If they're suiciding so that they can get antag ghost roles explicitly, I'd say that's a problem with the players. Otherwise, I'd agree.

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