Retailation on security after valid arrest.

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Shezza
 
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Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shezza » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:51 am #426155

Whenever you put someone in perma, you place a death wish on yourself because you just became valid for them.

I honestly can't see why behaviour of validbaiting thru being jailed is allowed on the server.

Security shouldn't be punished for doing their job.
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Ayy Lemoh
 
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Ayy Lemoh » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:54 am #426157

Shezza wrote:Whenever you put someone in perma, you place a death wish on yourself because you just became valid for them.

I honestly can't see why behaviour of validbaiting thru being jailed is allowed on the server.

Security shouldn't be punished for doing their job.

Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.

if you were perma'd for a good reason then you probably shouldn't kill sec.

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:00 am #426160

ACTUALLY SHEZZA, I'D LIKE TO PLACE AN ALTERNATE STANCE ON THIS RULING. SECURITY HAS TOO MUCH POWER!

"Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons. "

Firstly, fuck security and head of staff escalation. It puts them in the right for wronging you the majority of the time. Secondly, this ruling means that anything that makes you eligible for execution by security staff. Like, being the bartender and killing someone trespassing in your bar, or the chef doing the same thing. Security can come up and kill you, and you can't use the same force unless you want a ban.

I came across this scenario while arguing with sticky one time. So I know this is true. My main point is that, literally if someone attacks you because you put them in perma. They can eat a ban for breaking escalation rules. Unless they're a traitor, that's when you give them pacifism surgery dumb-dumb.

Edit: HOLY SHIT AYY LEMOH COMMITED WHAT I WROTE BEFORE ME FUCK

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shezza » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:19 am #426164

Oh boy a shadowflame post

Lets go

Shadowflame909 wrote:"Firstly, fuck security and head of staff escalation."


We allow this because of your standard greytider. We had to clarify that greytiding without caps office ic justification roundstart makes you valid.

Shadowflame909 wrote:"It puts them in the right for wronging you the majority of the time."


Again roles that require more effort from you than banging on windows give you more power over others, such is life.

Shadowflame909 wrote:"Like, being the bartender and killing someone trespassing in your bar, or the chef doing the same thing."


Then like, don't kill people and call security after stunning trespassers (barkeep has a shotgun with staminacrit rounds and chef has cqc, both are nonlethal). If they keep bothering you security will just escalate their punishment.
Irl we jail people who think they are the judge, jury and executioner with very harsh sentences.

Shadowflame909 wrote:"Security can come up and kill you, and you can't use the same force unless you want a ban."


If you kill someone for simply trespassing and avoid getting a ban because of it, you still have to face ic consequences of your actions. The security officer doing his job arresting a murderer shouldn't be valid for escalation.


Shadowflame909 wrote:literally if someone attacks you because you put them in perma.


I've had a admin say otherwise, clearly we need a clarification on this.
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Nilons » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:26 am #426166

If you were permad for a legitimate reason I'm fairly certain you can't valid the officer for it

You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:33 am #426170

If you heard otherwise shezza then they were clearly an antagonist and the admin was just trying not to ic in ooc. But by telling you that they were allowed to retaliate they were essentially giving away antag status.

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shezza » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:06 am #426176

Shadowflame909 wrote:If you heard otherwise shezza then they were clearly an antagonist and the admin was just trying not to ic in ooc. But by telling you that they were allowed to retaliate they were essentially giving away antag status.


Yeah they were not an antag.
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:14 am #426177

I dont think its a policy problem for you then, more like being given bad info

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Luke Cox » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:55 am #426191

This is why I just execute people when they commit capital crimes
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:01 am #426192

Killing someone as the chef and getting executed by sec with no way to fight back is shit. Validhunting sec is gonna turn me into a rule lawyer then anything else in ss13.

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Nilons » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:04 am #426193

Shadowflame909 wrote:Killing someone as the chef and getting executed by sec with no way to fight back is shit. Validhunting sec is gonna turn me into a rule lawyer then anything else in ss13.

yeah but if you killed them for breaking into the kitchen a bunch security can't execute you
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:07 am #426194

The first thought of action was to space me, admin approved. Some dumb Hammurabi's code about IF YOU KILL SOMEONE FOR TRESPASS SEC HAS THE RIGHT TO KILL YOU WITHOUT COMPLAINT. XDDD

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Nilons » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:11 am #426195

Shadowflame909 wrote:The first thought of action was to space me, admin approved. Some dumb Hammurabi's code about IF YOU KILL SOMEONE FOR TRESPASS SEC HAS THE RIGHT TO KILL YOU WITHOUT COMPLAINT. XDDD

im sure thats exactly what happened with no details left out
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:32 am #426197

To be fair there was no captain or hos that round I believe. Just some shitty sec officer with a boner for execution.

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:40 am #426201

If security has valid reasoning to arrest someone and the arestee was legitimately wronged by security (Perma for self defense is one case, there are others), then it creates a unique situation where retaliation is allowed. (in my opinion. other admins handle it differently.)

Permabrig escapes can actually be really fun from both sides. Definitely gets that adrenaline pumping and creates interesting situations. The problem starts when Greyshit McChucklefuck griefs the station and gets perma'd, and then uses that as reason to escalate against security. Then it happens every round with multiple people, sometimes the same people every time, and it's a lot less fun.

You actually don't see that much these days but when I joined the community it wasn't uncommon to see a player wage war against security over some perceived grievance they brought on themselves.
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:42 am #426202

im also really tired of hearing about the "opressed security and heads of staff" when sec has a lot of freedom and theyre not held to that high of a standard compared to a year ago, two years ago, and definitely not as high of a standard as during the SoS era.
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:33 am #426212

BeeSting12 wrote:If security has valid reasoning to arrest someone and the arestee was legitimately wronged by security (Perma for self defense is one case, there are others), then it creates a unique situation where retaliation is allowed. (in my opinion. other admins handle it differently.)

Permabrig escapes can actually be really fun from both sides. Definitely gets that adrenaline pumping and creates interesting situations. The problem starts when Greyshit McChucklefuck griefs the station and gets perma'd, and then uses that as reason to escalate against security. Then it happens every round with multiple people, sometimes the same people every time, and it's a lot less fun.

You actually don't see that much these days but when I joined the community it wasn't uncommon to see a player wage war against security over some perceived grievance they brought on themselves.


I've entered doom guy mode before. I took out the captain, hos and Hop. before I died in maint by some tider.

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Luke Cox » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:01 am #426220

Shadowflame909 wrote:Killing someone as the chef and getting executed by sec with no way to fight back is shit. Validhunting sec is gonna turn me into a rule lawyer then anything else in ss13.

In that scenario, I would give you one of the HoS medals and instruct you to display his head on a pike.

Generally though, tl;dr seems to be that you can't kill sec in virtually any circumstance as a non-antag and not get in trouble for it.
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Dax Dupont » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:03 am #426251

This is extremely situational, if you perma someone for flimsy reasoning and you get the ol' soap, slip and die, I'll play world's smallest violin.

If there's valid reasoning I'd say they'd have to thread carefully. Taking it out on random officers I Wouldn't agree with either.

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Dr_bee » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:03 pm #426280

Why are people killing each other as non-antags anyway? Escalation was a fucking mistake.

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:07 pm #426281

escalation always will exist if its a ruling or not. Don't even dare say that "people shouldn't kill each other when they dont get traitor." Because I'm not gonna bend over and take it from the greytide.

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Grazyn » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:34 pm #426283

There is actually precedent for this. IIRC it was something like this

>officer arrests Bryce Pax for the usual paxxing
>Pax is permabrigged
>officer is bwoinked and told to go release Pax
>as soon as the officer enters permabrig, Pax pulls the ol' soap slip table choke
>officer somehow gains the upper hand, kills Pax
>officer is banned, appeal is denied

now, ignoring the bwoink thing, if you get banned for killing someone who attacked you, it means their attack was justified and you were valid to them. So yes, permabrigging someone can make you valid if it's excessive punishment. Tread carefully and only permabrig/execute confirmed antags and you won't be in trouble.

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Nilons » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:50 pm #426286

Grazyn wrote:There is actually precedent for this. IIRC it was something like this

>officer arrests Bryce Pax for the usual paxxing
>Pax is permabrigged
>officer is bwoinked and told to go release Pax
>as soon as the officer enters permabrig, Pax pulls the ol' soap slip table choke
>officer somehow gains the upper hand, kills Pax
>officer is banned, appeal is denied

now, ignoring the bwoink thing, if you get banned for killing someone who attacked you, it means their attack was justified and you were valid to them. So yes, permabrigging someone can make you valid if it's excessive punishment. Tread carefully and only permabrig/execute confirmed antags and you won't be in trouble.

That was Jmad so things were already not in the officers favour as far as ahelps go and it came before the current escalation policy which specifically indicates that you can't kill security for arresting you rightfully
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Arianya » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:49 pm #426334

BeeSting12 wrote:im also really tired of hearing about the "opressed security and heads of staff" when sec has a lot of freedom and theyre not held to that high of a standard compared to a year ago, two years ago, and definitely not as high of a standard as during the SoS era.


when security numbers are inexplicably lower then every other department including the alleged "overflow" role then it may be time to admit that the "freedom" you're seeing is not seen by the actual players

But no yeah sure I guess we end up with no security 70-pop rounds because of the overwhelming freedom.
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Cobby » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:35 pm #426344

Just read thread title, here is your answer:

No you cannot FOR the arrest (not what you're asking in title).

Yes you can for shitty behavior done to you after the arrest. Just because an officer arrests you doesn't make them immune from escalation by you for the rest of the round if they do something else.

Any more questions anon?
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:50 am #426367

Arianya wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:im also really tired of hearing about the "opressed security and heads of staff" when sec has a lot of freedom and theyre not held to that high of a standard compared to a year ago, two years ago, and definitely not as high of a standard as during the SoS era.


when security numbers are inexplicably lower then every other department including the alleged "overflow" role then it may be time to admit that the "freedom" you're seeing is not seen by the actual players

But no yeah sure I guess we end up with no security 70-pop rounds because of the overwhelming freedom.

I'm just pointing out that sec doesn't need any more policy protections for security when it's the most freedom theyve had in years
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Luke Cox » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:58 am #426373

Things are definitely a lot better for security than they were in the past, but a lot of people are still afraid of getting bwoinked for doing their job as a security officer. Things like the Pax scenario a few posts up are why.
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Dr_bee » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:04 am #426375

BeeSting12 wrote:
Arianya wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:im also really tired of hearing about the "opressed security and heads of staff" when sec has a lot of freedom and theyre not held to that high of a standard compared to a year ago, two years ago, and definitely not as high of a standard as during the SoS era.


when security numbers are inexplicably lower then every other department including the alleged "overflow" role then it may be time to admit that the "freedom" you're seeing is not seen by the actual players

But no yeah sure I guess we end up with no security 70-pop rounds because of the overwhelming freedom.

I'm just pointing out that sec doesn't need any more policy protections for security when it's the most freedom theyve had in years


Security is an unrewarded job and it has always been. Especially with /tg/s more greytide tolerant server culture. Escalation being a fucking mess that depends entirely on the whims of whatever admin you get doesnt help either.

Can we please have a crackdown on "minor IC crime" by admins. It is almost always just greifing by tiders anyway.

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Cobby » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:05 am #426376

use the gulag anon

I don't really have any intention to "crack down on IC crime". If it's habitual with a particular person to get into trouble to where it's basically a low level self-antag let a (head)admin know so they can be watchlisted.
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Karp » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:00 am #426415

killing security without due cause is pretty no no right now, the issue is what is considered due cause which can vary heavily admin to admin. Some think long/permanent arrests are reasons to try to murder them while others only use it in specific cases.

tl;dr you arent going to get a straight answer and it varies from admin to admin on what they consider "due cause" to be
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:02 am #426426

I don't know how the majority of the admins feel about this scenario anyways. If you kill someone for tresspassing, and then security attempts to execute and space you. You shouldn't fight back because you did commit murder in response to a crime being done to you. Or you'll receive a ban.

I dunno, is that a good policy. It seems very restrictive to me and babies sec when they start out with the best stuns in the game.

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Karp » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:58 am #426453

Shadowflame909 wrote:I don't know how the majority of the admins feel about this scenario anyways. If you kill someone for tresspassing, and then security attempts to execute and space you. You shouldn't fight back because you did commit murder in response to a crime being done to you. Or you'll receive a ban.


this concept has been discussed in other ways escalation policy so many times it's laughable

in any case like this where both parties believe they're in the right and the other party is being hostile/murdering 4nr ends up being expected ingame conflict, how it gets worked out depends and is what varies. It also varies per admin on opinions.

but if security tries to constantly murder you and you've tried to at least deescalate it most admins will give you the a-okay, but as I said it varies from admin to admin
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shezza » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:39 pm #426514

Karp wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:I don't know how the majority of the admins feel about this scenario anyways. If you kill someone for tresspassing, and then security attempts to execute and space you. You shouldn't fight back because you did commit murder in response to a crime being done to you. Or you'll receive a ban.


this concept has been discussed in other ways escalation policy so many times it's laughable

in any case like this where both parties believe they're in the right and the other party is being hostile/murdering 4nr ends up being expected ingame conflict, how it gets worked out depends and is what varies. It also varies per admin on opinions.

but if security tries to constantly murder you and you've tried to at least deescalate it most admins will give you the a-okay, but as I said it varies from admin to admin


Having to take a wild guess if you can kill/get killed by another player is really bad.
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Cobby » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:51 pm #426518

If you’re not sure the answer is no
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:53 pm #426521

MILK THE COW

Serious policy discussion post: This rule usually fucks over the non-sec officers. How did someone even get away with the opposite side, Shezza? The next time you see that admin who told you otherwise. You gotta throw the rule book at them

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:28 pm #426527

Dr_bee wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:
Arianya wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:snip snip.

snip

snip


Security is an unrewarded job and it has always been. Especially with /tg/s more greytide tolerant server culture. Escalation being a fucking mess that depends entirely on the whims of whatever admin you get doesnt help either.

Can we please have a crackdown on "minor IC crime" by admins. It is almost always just greifing by tiders anyway.

What do you mean by unrewarding? Is it not rewarding to put an assistant that's been terrorizing medical in the gulag, or to climb a mountain of revolutionary bodies?

If actual griefing is going on then adminhelp it. Just keep in mind that without nonantagonist conflict, we wouldn't have a game.
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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:33 pm #426528

Just keep in mind that the only reasons these rules exist is because security has nothing to do but be the fun police. Literally give security some sort of good boy points that they can trade in for better stuff. Like 300 good sec points for an e-shield instead of a riot shield. Securitize sec into its own form of mini cargo, make the warden the QM. That jazz.

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Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Nilons » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:19 pm #426603

Shadowflame909 wrote: security has nothing to do but be the fun police.

l o l

greytide please leave
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Atlanta-Ned
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:11 pm
Byond Username: Atlanta-ned

Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Atlanta-Ned » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:53 pm #426612

Nilons wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote: security has nothing to do but be the fun police.

l o l

greytide please leave


This but unironically.
Feedback pls (Don't bother though, because I am perfect)
### ListVarEdit by Atlanta-ned: /datum/reagents reagent_list: Water=/obj/item/weapon/gun/energy/alien
IcePacks wrote:>all you have is a taser and the cold realization that you're a haphazard bandaid over a problem that may or may not exist, applied by someone who doesn't know or care enough about their job to do it properly

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Karp
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Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:54 am
Byond Username: Ambassador Magikarp

Re: Retailation on security after valid arrest.

Unread postby Karp » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:15 am #426638

Shezza wrote:
Karp wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:I don't know how the majority of the admins feel about this scenario anyways. If you kill someone for tresspassing, and then security attempts to execute and space you. You shouldn't fight back because you did commit murder in response to a crime being done to you. Or you'll receive a ban.


this concept has been discussed in other ways escalation policy so many times it's laughable

in any case like this where both parties believe they're in the right and the other party is being hostile/murdering 4nr ends up being expected ingame conflict, how it gets worked out depends and is what varies. It also varies per admin on opinions.

but if security tries to constantly murder you and you've tried to at least deescalate it most admins will give you the a-okay, but as I said it varies from admin to admin


Having to take a wild guess if you can kill/get killed by another player is really bad.


it's a core fact of our ruleset, if you're not a fan of it you just have to do what i used to do which is log out when certain admins are on if you disagree with them

or you could ahelp and tell them you're going to murder them and go based on those responses though you may not have time
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