Moderator: In-Game Head Admins
Nilons wrote:Golem built AIs fucking with the station have led to at least 5 BoH bombings by the golems in my experience
Dr_bee wrote:If you become a big enough threat that the golems take notice of you then you are the one who fucked up, cults for example are a threat to both the golems and the station.
Dr_bee wrote:If they are on the station and dunk you after you attack them or they witness you attacking someone else, you lost fair and square, next time play better, thats normal escalation rules.
Dr_bee wrote:If they attack the station with no provocation then it falls under normal escalation rules and they are in the wrong. no need for new policy.
Dr_bee wrote:Golem AI's being shitlords falls under normal escalation policy, if they are starting shit for no reason adminhelp it, even with "yeah go do whatever" meme laws they are technically purged and shouldnt be starting shit for no reason.
Dr_bee wrote:Ghost roles exist, that means they can effect the round, play around them and stop trying to neuter them with policy threads because you are salty you got dunked, your antag round isnt fucking sacred.
Arianya wrote:"second life on the station"
Cobby wrote:Just set it to a golem kingdom or something and make it a miner/trader faction
Floiven wrote:Cobby wrote:Just set it to a golem kingdom or something and make it a miner/trader faction
Do this. Lavaland kingdom opening trade relations with the station/cargo sounds fun, provides benefits to the station while encouraging RP as well
Arianya wrote:I think the issue is less them having escalation/retaliation, and more that Golems tend to get into a shitty position where they're going on to the station for little to no reason and so stop being "chill lavaland miner race" and end up being "second life on the station", something which ghost roles aren't really meant to be.
Unfortunately it's a messy one to fix. Ideally I'd like to forbid them teleporters and AIs so that they have to go via mining to assault/board the station (and generally speaking will limit retaliatory damage to the miners who initiated on them) but I think this is a nightmare to implement and a code solution rather then a policy one.
Dr_bee wrote:Teleporters are fine, if the golems are really becoming a problem with teleporters just toss a fucking maxcap into the station teleporter set to the golem ship and the problem is solved.
subject217 wrote:Dr_bee wrote:Teleporters are fine, if the golems are really becoming a problem with teleporters just toss a fucking maxcap into the station teleporter set to the golem ship and the problem is solved.
how to get your escape shuttle boh bombed in one easy step featuring self antagging free golems
Grazyn wrote:I tossed my fair share of maxcaps into teleporters set to golem ship (back when lavaland had no bombcap and you could delete the entire z-level) and I'd never have them retaliate, either because they all died or because they understood they did something to deserve that. On the other hand, I recall many golem-crew joint endeavours fucked up by the one golem going ballistic and boh-bombing the aux base/luring megafauna and so on with no provocation.
Dr_bee wrote:This all sounds like a similar problem to the drone issue, admins arent willing to hand out long term ghost role bans for griefing. Ghost roles should be a privilege not a right, if you fuck around by griffing the station or your fellow ghost roles you really should have the privilege revoked for a long time, even if it is a first offense.
Arianya wrote:Drones weren't removed because the users were constant rule breakers. If that were the case it would have been relatively easy to droneban the worst of them and drones would still be in.
The issue is that what was meant to be a fairly straightforward ruleset, aimed at making a low investment, low impact ghost role that was as much set dressing as anything, was anything but.
subject217 wrote:Dr_bee wrote:This all sounds like a similar problem to the drone issue, admins arent willing to hand out long term ghost role bans for griefing. Ghost roles should be a privilege not a right, if you fuck around by griffing the station or your fellow ghost roles you really should have the privilege revoked for a long time, even if it is a first offense.
that's not the *drone issue* though and there were several very good posts explaining this quite concisely in that thread. here, i'll quote one.Arianya wrote:Drones weren't removed because the users were constant rule breakers. If that were the case it would have been relatively easy to droneban the worst of them and drones would still be in.
The issue is that what was meant to be a fairly straightforward ruleset, aimed at making a low investment, low impact ghost role that was as much set dressing as anything, was anything but.
Stickymayhem wrote:Refraining golems into miner/trader focused roles desiring peacefully acquired valuables seems like the perfect solution.
The conflict possibilities are there because cunts will try to steal their hoard, interaction with the station is provided without needless validhunting, and it enables interesting gimmicks.
It also doesn't remove a ghost role that can be fun if it isn't abused.
Dr_bee wrote:I like this, it can be done with some flavor-text changes. Add some lines about since being granted life by humans they became peaceful explorers and traders, and maybe some roleplay hook job ideas as examples, such as trading minerals for cargo crates, or trading fully built mechs for slime cores.
More roleplay guidance is good, adding more complex policy that will only confuse people is unhelpful.
Dr_bee wrote:Grazyn wrote:I tossed my fair share of maxcaps into teleporters set to golem ship (back when lavaland had no bombcap and you could delete the entire z-level) and I'd never have them retaliate, either because they all died or because they understood they did something to deserve that. On the other hand, I recall many golem-crew joint endeavours fucked up by the one golem going ballistic and boh-bombing the aux base/luring megafauna and so on with no provocation.
This all sounds like a similar problem to the drone issue, admins arent willing to hand out long term ghost role bans for griefing. Ghost roles should be a privilege not a right, if you fuck around by griffing the station or your fellow ghost roles you really should have the privilege revoked for a long time, even if it is a first offense.
Cobby wrote:Dr_bee wrote:Grazyn wrote:I tossed my fair share of maxcaps into teleporters set to golem ship (back when lavaland had no bombcap and you could delete the entire z-level) and I'd never have them retaliate, either because they all died or because they understood they did something to deserve that. On the other hand, I recall many golem-crew joint endeavours fucked up by the one golem going ballistic and boh-bombing the aux base/luring megafauna and so on with no provocation.
This all sounds like a similar problem to the drone issue, admins arent willing to hand out long term ghost role bans for griefing. Ghost roles should be a privilege not a right, if you fuck around by griffing the station or your fellow ghost roles you really should have the privilege revoked for a long time, even if it is a first offense.
We literally have a perma ghost role ban being appealed right now.
Cobby wrote:Feature-wise, Admins should be the (temporary) last line of defense, not the catch-all net.
I’ll play around with it this week when I return home.
Dr_bee wrote:The point of lavaland ghost roles in particular was emergent gameplay and roleplaying, so in this case admins were supposed to define what is and is not acceptable. If you start adding code barriers you might as well redesign the entire role.
also this is a policy thread, not a coding feedback thread, this point is to discuss if admin enforcement should change. Seriously can we stop with the stealth coding feedback threads in the policy forum?
Cobby wrote:The point of free golems was a science tutorial, you’re welcome to pull up the GitHub pr if you’d like.
The issue here is that science changed to not require a tutorial, but the ruin remained as is. That is not an admin issue, that is a code one. I’m not looking to bandaid secondary issues (people’s ability to exploit the as-is ruin) caused by this one.
There is nothing wrong with a code solution to admin problems. I’d rather bar things we ban for outright before people “emergent gaming” themselves to not be able to play at all. Don’t take it as we’re trying to suck the fun out of ghost roles.
Arianya wrote:Taking away your ability to make an item is not a "restriction" in the same way that "banning them from leaving the z-level" would be.
By that logic not allowing R&D on station to make eswords is restricting them from fun and interesting interactions with the game, and that we should just policy enforce science's use of them.
Lazengann wrote:does anyone object to "don't attack unless attacked"
Cobby wrote:Policy is already that
Mickyan wrote:If the captain makes an announcement to kill the clown, the clown doesn't automatically gain the privilege of freely bombing the station and going on a killing spree. Why is a ghost role, the one and only that has access to all the tools to fuck up the station no less, given less restrictions than a regular crewmember?
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