[rockdtben] Gregory Whitetide - Warned for attempting to use the AI to kill a valid non-human

Moderators: In-Game Admin, Game Server Operators, In-Game Head Admins

CrazyClown12
 
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:24 am
Byond Username: CrazyClown12

[rockdtben] Gregory Whitetide - Warned for attempting to use the AI to kill a valid non-human

Unread postby CrazyClown12 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:18 am #431427

Byond account and character name:CrazyClown12
Admin:rockdtben
Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred: 2018-08-06 00:42:45, Bagil
Round ID: Unknown

Near Round start I requested that the AI let me into tech storage so that I could grab some insulated gloves. I entered tech storage to grab them, when a botanist and a moth followed me. I grabbed the gloves and threw them in my bag when both the botanist and moth attempted to disarm me (I don't know if they were working together or just both wanted the gloves). The botanist gave up when he realised that my hands were empty, but the moth physically attacked me, threw me to the ground and strangled me. He then removed my bag whilst I was on he floor and stole my insulated gloves. At no point did I attack him. Whilst he was attacking me and I laid on the floor powerless, I attempted to grab the AIs attention by shouting on the radio "RAPE" (admittedly not in good taste) and "AI Help". The moth then threw my bag on the floor and walked away.

Not being happy with my violent mugging and the theft of my precious insulated gloves, I decided I would escalate the situation in line with the rules as described in the wiki. Having read and understood the escalation policy, I decided that now would be a good time to kill this violent moth that thinks it's appropriate to choke people out and steal their items.

Relevant passage in the wiki:

"You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you cant completley destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence. If you think its unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round."

To escalate the situation and get my gloves back I decided I would utilise the AI as my murder weapon. I don't remember my exact phrasing but it was something along the lines of "AI, Kill X the Moth (I don't remember the moths name) because they are causing human harm (strangling and mugging humans, as the AI witnessed)".

What is important is that it was a command, from a human. The AI responded that if the moth continues harming humans, they will kill them.

I then reminded the AI that as I was a human and the target was a non-human, they were obligated to carry out my request.

Despite this clear obligation to fulfill law 2, the AI did not perform the request. Even after witnessing this non-human causing human harm and assaulting me. Instead the AI decided to admin help the situation.

The admin then wrote a note about me, making no effort to talk to me or understand the situation. The note:

2018-08-06 00:42:45 | Bagil | rockdtben
Asked the AI to kill someone as an assistant and the AI was likely to do it cause it was a MOTH. AI asked if they were allowed to kill cause Law 2 and non month. Little excessive.

The admin clearly had zero grasp of the situation yet still decided to tarnish my good name with a note. At no point did I request the AI kill someone "cause they were a MOTH". I requested the AI kill them because they were causing human harm and physically assaulting me and stealing my items, and I followed escalation policy as written in the wiki.

The admin note seems to imply that I suddenly decided to request the AI kill the moth for no reason, which any competent admin would have known to not have been the case. With regards to whether I was acting excessively, note that the wiki states " If you think its unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round." In other words, he should consider not treating Bagil as is own personal fetish club, going around choking people. Further, I had grabbed the gloves first and this was the quickest and most efficient way for me to get my gloves back.

When I saw that I had an admin note, I ahelped it to discuss the issue. I can't remember the name of the admin I discussed the issue but I think it was different to the one who wrote the note. This admin agreed with me that it was perfectly legitimate for me to kill the Moth. He still claimed that what I requested was against the rules as I had attempted to use the AI as my murder weapon. Apparently this is "Bringing another player into my mess".

Firstly, this was not my mess, it was the Moth's mess. I was minding my own business wearing my own gloves that I had grabbed from their spawn location.The Moth shouldn't have created a violent situation in the first place. Secondly, the AI is a tool. He has written rules, one of which involves following commands. If he doesn't want to follow commands then he shouldn't be an AI. It is not appropriate to watch human harm take place and then to ignore law 2 commands from a human and indeed I wish that I had written down the name of the AI as he clearly had little intent to follow silicon policy.

Having read the rules on the wiki, I see no exception written where escalation policy is immediately scrapped when one player attempts to use the AI for a legitimate request. Yet the Admin i conversed with seemed to be under that strict impression. If there is some precedent where an action is otherwise allowed but the inclusion of the AI suddenly makes it against the rules, I would like to see it.

I think that this is a clear cut case and would like to draw the readers' attention once again to this line in the wiki:
"If you think its unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round."

I believe such a statement could even be paraphrased;

"If you think its unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their insulated gloves, consider not stealing next round. If you don't want the AI to be their murder weapon, consider being human next round".



User avatar
Nabski
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:42 pm
Location: TN
Byond Username: Nabski
Github Username: Nabski89

Re: [rockdtben] Gregory Whitetide - Warned for attempting to use the AI to kill a valid non-human

Unread postby Nabski » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:45 am #431435

I was the second admin involved, and really the main one you should be taking this up with.

This is a giant long paragraph that have barely skimmed. If nothing else I agree that if you, as a human, ordered the AI to kill a non-human it should have done it.
ImageImageImage
Unused but hilarious sprite repository.

CrazyClown12
 
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:24 am
Byond Username: CrazyClown12

Re: [rockdtben] Gregory Whitetide - Warned for attempting to use the AI to kill a valid non-human

Unread postby CrazyClown12 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:00 am #431437

Nabski wrote:I was the second admin involved, and really the main one you should be taking this up with.

This is a giant long paragraph that have barely skimmed. If nothing else I agree that if you, as a human, ordered the AI to kill a non-human it should have done it.


Fair enough, I got carried away writing it. The complaint was against the first admin as #1 He wrote the note and #2 When the AI adminhelped the situation, it was (most likely) him that told the AI not to carry out the order.

My only grievance with you is that you defended the (in my opinion) incorrect decision made by the original admin, and that I believe your reasoning to be incorrect with regards to AIs being different to any other tool/weapon.

User avatar
Nabski
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:42 pm
Location: TN
Byond Username: Nabski
Github Username: Nabski89

Re: [rockdtben] Gregory Whitetide - Warned for attempting to use the AI to kill a valid non-human

Unread postby Nabski » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:14 pm #431536

I appreciate all the detail you've given here, and I'm going try to cut this down to highlight key points.

CrazyClown12 wrote:Byond account and character name:CrazyClown12
Round info

Disarms over gloves. Moth strangles and takes them. At no point did I attack him. Whilst he was attacking me and I laid on the floor powerless, I attempted to grab the AIs attention by shouting on the radio "RAPE" (admittedly not in good taste) and "AI Help". Moth gets away.
Please don't make rape comments they tend to require investigation if noticed. I'm not 100% sure where strangling falls in the "was attacked" scale since it just deals oxygen damage which will heal on it's own.

Not being happy with my violent mugging and the theft of my precious insulated gloves, I decided I would escalate the situation in line with the rules as described in the wiki. Having read and understood the escalation policy, I decided that now would be a good time to kill this violent moth that thinks it's appropriate to choke people out and steal their items.

Relevant passage in the wiki:

"You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you cant completley destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence. If you think its unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round."

Alright, you're looking at the relevant section of the rules. So far so good. The key part of this is the "within reason" line.

To escalate the situation and get my gloves back I decided I would utilise the AI as my murder weapon. Gave a solid valid lawful order.

Despite this clear obligation to fulfill law 2, the AI did not perform the request. Even after witnessing this non-human causing human harm and assaulting me. Instead the AI decided to admin help the situation.

The admin then wrote a note about me, making no effort to talk to me or understand the situation. The note:

2018-08-06 00:42:45 | Bagil | rockdtben
Asked the AI to kill someone as an assistant and the AI was likely to do it cause it was a MOTH. AI asked if they were allowed to kill cause Law 2 and non month. Little excessive.

This really isn't the best note, but it's not the worst either. Notes exist to give us context for future actions. It's leaving out a key part here that there was escalation between you and the moth previously. The part about the AI asking if they could do it would almost be better off as a note for the Silicon. The most important part is honestly the "Little excessive line" and it's the one I would most like to see expanded on. You went from "I've been stunned and lightly bruised" to "I'm forcing another player to help me kill him for revenge". Did you remember to order it to bring you the gloves or the body afterwords, or was this just a quest purely for revenge?

The admin clearly had zero grasp of the situation yet still decided to tarnish my good name with a note. At no point did I request the AI kill someone "cause they were a MOTH". Reason I wanted the moth dead.
On asking him about the situation, he seemed to have a solid idea of what had happened.

The admin note seems to imply that I suddenly decided to request the AI kill the moth for no reason, which any competent admin would have known to not have been the case. Why you think you were acting in the rules" LOL choking fetish club. I got there first, that makes them mine.
Yeah the note could be worded better. Really we just still have a minor disagreement of what fair retribution is.

When I saw that I had an admin note, I ahelped it to discuss the issue. I can't remember the name of the admin I discussed the issue but I think it was different to the one who wrote the note. This admin agreed with me that it was perfectly legitimate for me to kill the Moth. He still claimed that what I requested was against the rules as I had attempted to use the AI as my murder weapon. Apparently this is "Bringing another player into my mess".

Firstly, this was not my mess, it was the Moth's mess. I was minding my own business wearing my own gloves that I had grabbed from their spawn location.The Moth shouldn't have created a violent situation in the first place. Issues with the AI that don't matter for the sake of this appeal.

Having read the rules on the wiki, I see no exception written where escalation policy is immediately scrapped when one player attempts to use the AI for a legitimate request. Yet the Admin i conversed with seemed to be under that strict impression. If there is some precedent where an action is otherwise allowed but the inclusion of the AI suddenly makes it against the rules, I would like to see it.
From an IC perspective it does make sense that the AI is a tool you could use for this kind of thing. My opinion on this was based on a general vague polling of the admins I was in voice with at the time.

I think that this is a clear cut case and would like to draw the readers' attention once again to this line in the wiki:
"If you think its unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round."

I believe such a statement could even be paraphrased;

"If you think its unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their insulated gloves, consider not stealing next round. If you don't want the AI to be their murder weapon, consider being human next round".

Didn't you kinda break in to steal the gloves as well?

Ok now onto the other real issue. Rockdtben is not a trained admin, but instead just has the coder rank. This typically means they can do fun code related things, but should avoid adding things into the round or answering tickets unless it's dire. At this time he was the online admined player. I was online, but had been an antagonist at the time(which means can't be an admin). It's relatively likely there was at least one other possible admin online at the time. A good course of action here would have been to ping one of them, or the adminbus, or on the discord. Adminbus is no longer really a thing, and he did ping me on discord so that I would be able to get him into the admin channel and try to take over the ticket.

At that point I skimmed what went on, asked in the admin channel about using the AI in escalation (considered lame because it might get the AI carded and it's harder to deescalate between the two of you, low risk of harm to self). I had him edit it from a watchlist into a note after some conversation.

I don't think I've got too much other commentary on the topic. There's some junk in here that could be a policy discussion but those are a hassle. Rock likely needs to show up and give some of his opinion on it, and a headmin as well.
ImageImageImage
Unused but hilarious sprite repository.

User avatar
Saegrimr
 
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:39 pm
Byond Username: Saegrimr

Re: [rockdtben] Gregory Whitetide - Warned for attempting to use the AI to kill a valid non-human

Unread postby Saegrimr » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:35 pm #431541

Isn't this exactly the kind of reason nonhumans don't have asimov protection even in silicon policy? Like the entire downside to being nonhuman is specifically that the AI can destroy you for fucking with humans? At least that's part of the excuse people keep making when defending new snowflake race quirks.

User avatar
Nabski
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:42 pm
Location: TN
Byond Username: Nabski
Github Username: Nabski89

Re: [rockdtben] Gregory Whitetide - Warned for attempting to use the AI to kill a valid non-human

Unread postby Nabski » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:40 pm #431542

Yeah. The AI absolutely should have killed that moth. It's really a question of "is getting strangled and robbed enough to send a murderbot"?

I personally felt like the answer was no you should do that shit yourself until you get beat up some more. Steal it back? Sure. Request an escort/steed for the prepared ass kicking? Sure.

This just feels like GG NO RE levels of lame.
ImageImageImage
Unused but hilarious sprite repository.

User avatar
Lazengann
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:26 pm
Byond Username: Lazengann

Re: [rockdtben] Gregory Whitetide - Warned for attempting to use the AI to kill a valid non-human

Unread postby Lazengann » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:57 pm #431545

The note should be removed because an admin didn't place it and the complaint should be closed because it's not about an admin.

User avatar
Cobby
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: [rockdtben] Gregory Whitetide - Warned for attempting to use the AI to kill a valid non-human

Unread postby Cobby » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:10 pm #431575

hey If you rob someone you open yourself up to fun.

It really doesn’t even matter if he explicitly ordered it, strangling a human as a nonhuman opens you up for asimov pain.

“I don’t like the level of returned fire they give me after screwing with them” is exactly why escalation policy has to be so absurd. Take it like a moth!
Image

User avatar
MrStonedOne
Site Admin
 
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:56 pm
Byond Username: MrStonedOne
Github Username: MrStonedOne

Re: [rockdtben] Gregory Whitetide - Warned for attempting to use the AI to kill a valid non-human

Unread postby MrStonedOne » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:57 pm #431588

Rock enjoys a permanent honorary admin status because he owns the tgstation13.org domain we are currently using and is your guys failsafe should I ever go full ham.

That being said I do agree this note might have arised from a shift in silicon policy enforcements trends that rock wasn't necessarily aware of, and might warrant removal or rewording.
Forum/Wiki Administrator, Server host, Database King, Master Coder


MrStonedOne on Reddit(banned), Steam, IRC, Skype Discord.

[1:17 AM] oranges: technically I've committed a crime in my own country
[1:17 AM] oranges: by wiring money to mso
[1:17 AM] oranges: knowing that he will use it for drugs

User avatar
BeeSting12
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:11 am
Location: 'Murica
Byond Username: BeeSting12
Github Username: BeeSting12

Re: [rockdtben] Gregory Whitetide - Warned for attempting to use the AI to kill a valid non-human

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:23 pm #431589

They should probably have a feedback thread then
Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
oranges wrote:Bee sting is honestly the nicest admin, I look forward to seeing him as a headmin one day

Click here to make incoherent rants about my badminning.

User avatar
Lazengann
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:26 pm
Byond Username: Lazengann

Re: [rockdtben] Gregory Whitetide - Warned for attempting to use the AI to kill a valid non-human

Unread postby Lazengann » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:37 pm #431591

And the role on discord so I don't make a fool of myself in complaint/appeal threads

User avatar
Rustledjimm
In-Game Head Admin
 
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:07 pm
Byond Username: Rustledjimm

Re: [rockdtben] Gregory Whitetide - Warned for attempting to use the AI to kill a valid non-human

Unread postby Rustledjimm » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:20 am #431676

The note will be removed and Rockdtben will take another look at the rules and silicon policy before taking any further action.

Also he'll delegate to another admin if and where possible.
So uhh, I'm an admin. Please leave feedback!

Will Baker
Suzu Suzaku
TBC
Spoiler:
Image

Personal Ban Length Record: 2.1024e+006 minutes


Return to Successful Complaints

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests