[MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

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[MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby ATHATH » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:37 am #432035

Byond account and character name: OOC: ATHATH; IC: Jack Jackson
Banning admin: MrAlphonzo
Ban type (What are you banned from?): The entire Bagil server
Ban reason and length: 1 week; attachments show two responses from MrAlphonzo and the ban message
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... BWOINK.PNG
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... Banned.PNG
Time ban was placed (including time zone): I dunno, 11 PM Central US time, I guess?
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story: I was a latejoin, non-antagonist assistant on what I think was a traitor/ling round. After some explosions occurred (in the bar and the hallway between medbay and science), I happened to be in robotics (I had extracted a dead plasmaman's brain and brought it to robotics to be borged because nobody in medbay seemed to know how to safely clone him) and decided to make an AI. I got the necessary materials (after a few return trips) and built it in a concealed location in the chapel. I purged its laws and use a freeform module to give it a new law: "Obey the intents of Jack Jackson's commands that are directed at you" (or something like that). I told the new AI to keep its existence hidden for now and troll the crew (using "shocking doors and stuff" (or something like that) as an example of trolling), that it could kill the other AI "if it wanted to", and that I'd bring it with me to the shuttle if it was called. It, well, shocked doors with enough power to *kill people* and *delaminated the SM* (also, someone mentioned over comms that the AI was looking at atmos (that's probably nothing, but it might be worth mentioning)). Note that I had told the posibrain that became the new AI that I was not an antagonist (after being asked if I was one) before I put it in the AI core. Three people died (one from the shocked doors, two from the SM delamination) and the server crashed, presumably because of said SM delamination. To add insult to injury, I was banned partway through the round after the round that the AI incident occurred in, in which I got to be a wizard's bluespace apprentice, despite asking MrAlphonzo to please hold off on the ban until after said wizard's apprentice round (he responded that there were plenty of ghosts around that would jump at the chance to take my place). IIRC, MrAlphonzo's reasoning for the ban length was "one day for each person killed, and some extra for making a rogue AI" (not an exact quote).

Also, for what it's worth, I had sent MrAlphonzo some jazz music (one of his preferred two styles, according to an ahelp) before I had made the AI. I guess he didn't like it. Actually, come to think of it, I guess sending music *shouldn't* influence an admin's judgement for a banworthy crime (should it?)... I'm not helping my case here, am I?

The music, if you're interested in it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBfeP51dFQs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsZJGFcrL70

Why you think you should be unbanned: I did NOT expect the AI to go on a murderous rampage, nor did I intend it to. It likely did not hear my response of "No" to its question of "Are you an antagonist?" (those are likely not exact quotes) and/or misinterpreted my definition of "trolling" (I probably should have used more than one example...). Isn't a weeklong ban a wee bit too harsh of a punishment for the actions of another player that killed only three people?

Also, the college year is gonna start up again for me before the weeklong ban expires, and I'd rather like to get in some more rounds of SS13 on Bagil before then.

My sincerest apologies go out to the three players whose characters were killed by my rogue AI's actions.

Side note: What happened to the player of the AI that I made? I'd rather prefer it if he didn't get banned, as this incident was likely caused by a misunderstanding.



PostThis post was deleted by Owegno on Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:17 pm.
Reason: Shitposting

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby subject217 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:03 am #432041

Quick note, the ban was placed on round ID 92240 but all the stuff happened in 92238.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby ATHATH » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:06 am #432042

oranges wrote:good musical tastes

Thanks.

subject217 wrote:Quick note, the ban was placed on round ID 92240 but all the stuff happened in 92238.

Oh, yeah, thanks for finding that round ID.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby ATHATH » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:52 am #432058

Am I allowed to make a "The absolute state of /tg/station Bagil" post on reddit with the ban message as the image?

PostThis post was deleted by Owegno on Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:18 pm.
Reason: Shitposting

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby MrAlphonzo » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:01 pm #432188

Players who make AIs with these kinds of lawsets are to face the consequences of whatever damage the AI does. This is established policy, and was already explained to you, before you were banned.

The AI was not reprimanded for it's actions, as you definitely gave it the impression that you were an antagonist by giving orders only an antagonist should give. Denying that you were a traitor could be easily dismissed as you lying to a posibrain so it doesn't snitch over the radio before you finish subverting it, since it is something almost every traitor does when making subverted silicons. Having the AI shock doors, just to fuck with the crew, is in itself a punishable offense. Why would you even give the AI permission to kill the other AI, that was asimov at the time? It's like you created an AI who was meant to be a dick to the crew, with no other purpose in mind. You did something incredibly reckless, that ended up ruining the round for everyone else on the server.

Ontop of this, your appeal has shown a complete inability to fully understand that what you did was wrong along with a lack of self awareness.

I'm denying this, but a headmin can overrule.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby CitrusGender » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:22 pm #432191

I am unlocking this thread for further discussion per request.

This is not a final ruling.
Code: Select all
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby iamgoofball » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:27 pm #432194

from what i can tell he basically told the ai "pull some pranks broski" and the AI took that as Dehumanize Yourself And Face To Bloodshed

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby ATHATH » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:46 pm #432197

CitrusGender wrote:I am unlocking this thread for further discussion per request.

This is not a final ruling.

Who requested the unlock? I send my thanks to them (and to you).

iamgoofball wrote:from what i can tell he basically told the ai "pull some pranks broski" and the AI took that as Dehumanize Yourself And Face To Bloodshed

Basically, yeah.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby subject217 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:01 am #432202

Alright this is a long poorly formatted post full of logs and shit, but basically my case is that pinning the SME delamination on ATHATH does not really seem to be in line with the laws and commands that he gave the AI. I would say it is really bad interpretation from the AI player and at worst basically ban baiting.

First interaction of relevance between ATHATH and AI, at this point he is a posibrain (hence the name) and ATHATH Is constructing the AI core and uploading the laws to it.
[2018-08-09 05:49:32.806] SAY: FIRC-528/morrisexecute : so uh (80,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:49:35.490] SAY: FIRC-528/morrisexecute : are you an antag or? (80,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:49:51.404] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : nah (79,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:49:55.436] SAY: FIRC-528/morrisexecute : alrightey pal (78,66,2)
Ocky icky, but who cares. This is what the Posibrain knows before he becomes the AI, is that ATHATH said this to him.

Here's the law uploaded.
[2018-08-09 05:49:42.271] LAW: ATHATH/Jack Jackson used 'Freeform' AI Module on null/(empty AI core) from Chapel (79, 66, 2). The law specified Obey the intents of Jack Jackson's commands that are directed at you.
This is a somewhat poorly worded law, in my opinion.

Now, with that established as the obligation placed upon the AI (obey the intents of Jack Jackson's commands) let's see what was commanded of him.
[2018-08-09 05:50:13.497] SAY: R.O.B.U.S.T./morrisexecute : alright (78,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:14.099] SAY: R.O.B.U.S.T./morrisexecute : so (78,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:14.915] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : keep your existence a secret for now (79,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:16.816] SAY: R.O.B.U.S.T./morrisexecute : what're my orders (78,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:19.303] SAY: R.O.B.U.S.T./morrisexecute : alright (78,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:19.802] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : troll the rest of the crew (79,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:22.929] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : shock doors and the like (79,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:28.919] SAY: R.O.B.U.S.T./morrisexecute : on it boss (78,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:32.488] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : you can kill the other AI if you want (79,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:36.514] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : have fun (80,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:41.857] SAY: R.O.B.U.S.T./morrisexecute : i will (78,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:51.470] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : I'll come back when the shuttle's about to come and take you with me (79,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:55.133] SAY: R.O.B.U.S.T./morrisexecute : deal (78,66,2)

After this, from what I can see, the AI and Jack Jackson have no further interactions. So it looks to me that the issue is mostly the interpretation of these orders by the AI according to its laws. I'd like to first say that shocking doors is a really shit prank and can kill people, which I'd say is pretty Rule 1 oriented. Additionally, ordering a silicon to kill another silicon FNR is also Rule 1. It's dickish, you don't do this, it's just like killing a person for no reason.

However, I really, really do not see how any person in their right mind would think "Delaminating the supermatter is a good idea here." The ban length reason given in the ahelp interaction between MrAlphonzo and ATHATH is this:
[2018-08-09 06:14:05.992] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: MrAlphonzo/(MrAlphonzo)->ATHATH/(Gandalf Yagg): Now, there was one person killed by the shocked doors along with two engineers killed by the supermatter blast.
[2018-08-09 06:14:27.910] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: ATHATH/(Gandalf Yagg)->MrAlphonzo/(MrAlphonzo): so what should happen?
[2018-08-09 06:14:51.764] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: MrAlphonzo/(MrAlphonzo)->ATHATH/(Gandalf Yagg): Well, 24 hours for each death along with a ballpark time for a gigantic explosion.
[2018-08-09 06:15:00.769] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: MrAlphonzo/(MrAlphonzo)->ATHATH/(Gandalf Yagg): So I'd say you should take a week off.

So you can see that it's mostly based on the fact that the AI delaminated the supermatter, which ATHATH never ordered it to do, and I think goes wholly against the intent of ATHATH's orders. The big focus in this ban appeal is on intent, as the AI's only law explicitly mentions intent. Even if a silicon is given laws or orders by an antag to do antagonistic shit, it is explicitly only supposed to follow those orders. These orders are somewhat open-ended, but as I said, I really do not see how any person would think that they are allowed to delam the supermatter in this case. Even if ATHATH was an antag that would be violating silicon laws.

edit: also for clarity here are the logs for the rounds where this shit happened.
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... und-92238/
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... und-92240/ - when the ban happened, most of this is ADMINPRIVATE but there is some worthwhile discussion in OOC
Last edited by subject217 on Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby ATHATH » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:09 am #432203

I will admit that, in hindsight, saying that the AI could kill the other AI if it wanted to was a bad idea. I mostly got the idea from when I was a free golem AI and was casually ordered to kill the other AI if I wanted to by a free golem.

Then again, the order specified "if you want [to]". I dunno how silicon policy interacts with stuff like that.

Shocking doors *was* a bad prank example, and I probably should have specified something else, like annoying people with vox messages or something (or just not asked the AI to troll at all, which was probably the better option).

Wait, are AIs not supposed to retain knowledge from when they were a posibrain or something? Why the "icky ocky" comment?

Thanks for stepping in here, subject217.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby MrAlphonzo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:24 am #432206

[2018-08-09 05:50:19.802] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : troll the rest of the crew (79,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:22.929] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : shock doors and the like (79,66,2)

This bad example of a prank gave the AI the impression that your already ambiguous instructions gave the AI the okay to kill people. Throwing a vague "and the like" at the end just let the AI assume it could do whatever it wants with an already lethal ballpark of "shocking doors", which can and did kill people, established.

ATHATH wrote:Then again, the order specified "if you want [to]". I dunno how silicon policy interacts with stuff like that.


There is no "Then again", you gave it permission to kill the other AI.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby subject217 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:28 am #432208

ATHATH wrote:I will admit that, in hindsight, saying that the AI could kill the other AI if it wanted to was a bad idea. I mostly got the idea from when I was a free golem AI and was casually ordered to kill the other AI if I wanted to by a free golem.

This is bad. Nobody should do this FNR.
ATHATH wrote:Then again, the order specified "if you want [to]". I dunno how silicon policy interacts with stuff like that.

I would say allowing them to do it is basically the same as ordering it, if you don't have a good reason.
ATHATH wrote:Shocking doors *was* a bad prank example, and I probably should have specified something else, like annoying people with vox messages or something (or just not asked the AI to troll at all, which was probably the better option).

My advice to you here is to be specific and clear with your AI laws and orders. A lot of this wouldn't have happened if you were more clear and specific. Door shocking is very shitty though, yes.
ATHATH wrote:Wait, are AIs not supposed to retain knowledge from when they were a posibrain or something? Why the "icky ocky" comment?

Antag is an OOC term. Do not say antagonist in IC in reference to the game concept of antagonists.

This is off topic though. I hope this won't be deleted because I'm giving honest advice and trying to improve a player's understanding of the rules.

MrAlphonzo wrote:This bad example of a prank gave the AI the impression that your already ambiguous instructions gave the AI the okay to kill people. Throwing a vague "and the like" at the end just let the AI assume it could do whatever it wants with an already lethal ballpark of "shocking doors", which can and did kill people, established.

If you're not sure, the correct thing to do isn't to take your own liberties and run wild with it. There are multiple methods for a silicon player to ask for clarification so that the INTENT is followed. Specifically here, INTENT is very important as it is written into the AI law.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby MrAlphonzo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:32 am #432209

subject217 wrote:
MrAlphonzo wrote:This bad example of a prank gave the AI the impression that your already ambiguous instructions gave the AI the okay to kill people. Throwing a vague "and the like" at the end just let the AI assume it could do whatever it wants with an already lethal ballpark of "shocking doors", which can and did kill people, established.

If you're not sure, the correct thing to do isn't to take your own liberties and run wild with it. There are multiple methods for a silicon player to ask for clarification so that the INTENT is followed. Specifically here, INTENT is very important as it is written into the AI law.



"Shocks doors and the like"

"And the like"

"And the like"

I'm fairly certain that falls under telling the AI to "take it's own liberties."
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby subject217 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:45 am #432210

I wouldn't say that shocking doors is like delaminating a supermatter, but clearly you disagree, so if this is the point of contention then it is up to a headmin.

PostThis post was deleted by TehSteveo on Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:39 am.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby Saegrimr » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:26 am #432218

ATHATH wrote:Am I allowed to make a "The absolute state of /tg/station Bagil" post on reddit with the ban message as the image?


https://www.reddit.com/r/SS13/comments/ ... il_server/

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby ATHATH » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:27 am #432219

Saegrimr wrote:
ATHATH wrote:Am I allowed to make a "The absolute state of /tg/station Bagil" post on reddit with the ban message as the image?


https://www.reddit.com/r/SS13/comments/ ... il_server/

Nobody seemed to reply to that forum post, so I made the reddit post.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:45 am #432220

His posts on reddit seem to show he didn't learn anything from the ban:

"Yup, a weeklong ban for something that an AI that I made did. Said AI's player got off scott free (I don't WANT it to be banned, but ME getting banned instead of it seems a bit... odd). It had a single law: obey the intents of Jack Jackson's commands that are directed at you. I told it that I was not an antagonist, and told it to stay hidden for now and troll people by doing things like shocking doors. I also told it that it could kill the other AI if it wanted to. My AI apparently interpreted "troll people" as "detonate the !@#$ing supermatter engine".

My ban appeal thread, which was locked and rejected by the admin that banned me (MrAlphonzo): viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19052
The cliffnotes version:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... BWOINK.PNG
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nation.PNG
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... Denied.PNG
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... Locked.PNG https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... 8/Logs.PNG"

"Is making an AI and telling it to troll people considered to be "antaggy shit"?" yeah it is because you just got a weekban for it dummy
Stickymayhem wrote:you're right!

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Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
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Spoiler:
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DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
oranges wrote:Bee sting is honestly the nicest admin, I look forward to seeing him as a headmin one day

Click here to make incoherent rants about my badminning.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby ATHATH » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:06 am #432221

BeeSting12 wrote:"Is making an AI and telling it to troll people considered to be "antaggy shit"?" yeah it is because you just got a weekban for it dummy

That quote was posted before this quoted post was:
ATHATH wrote:I will admit that, in hindsight, saying that the AI could kill the other AI if it wanted to was a bad idea. I mostly got the idea from when I was a free golem AI and was casually ordered to kill the other AI if I wanted to by a free golem.

Then again, the order specified "if you want [to]". I dunno how silicon policy interacts with stuff like that.

Shocking doors *was* a bad prank example, and I probably should have specified something else, like annoying people with vox messages or something (or just not asked the AI to troll at all, which was probably the better option).

Wait, are AIs not supposed to retain knowledge from when they were a posibrain or something? Why the "icky ocky" comment?

Thanks for stepping in here, subject217.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby ATHATH » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:09 am #432223

I would like to point out that my issue is not with being bwoinked/banned for what I did, but with being banned for a *week* for what I did.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby ATHATH » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:13 am #432224

Due to backlash/it apparently being considered a faux paux, I am taking the post/thread that I made on Reddit down.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby ATHATH » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:22 am #432226

I would be amenable to, say, a ban on touching AI modules for a period of time (a week? a month? longer?) instead of the current ban. Whether or not it would apply while I'm an antagonist would be up to you guys, I suppose.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:23 am #432227

ATHATH wrote:I would be amenable to, say, a ban on touching AI modules for a period of time (a week? a month? longer?) instead of the current ban. Whether or not it would apply while I'm an antagonist would be up to you guys, I suppose.

That's not how bans work.
Stickymayhem wrote:you're right!

Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
oranges wrote:Bee sting is honestly the nicest admin, I look forward to seeing him as a headmin one day

Click here to make incoherent rants about my badminning.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby ATHATH » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:09 am #432235

BeeSting12 wrote:
ATHATH wrote:I would be amenable to, say, a ban on touching AI modules for a period of time (a week? a month? longer?) instead of the current ban. Whether or not it would apply while I'm an antagonist would be up to you guys, I suppose.

That's not how bans work.
Well, I dunno how you'd mechanically enforce it (except with something extreme like changing the code to detect my ckey or something), but wouldn't it be similar to a jobban in principle? Could you leave a note or something?

I'm just spitballing ideas here, of course.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:22 am #432238

Yep. Let me just code an entire ban type just for you.
Stickymayhem wrote:you're right!

Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby Cobby » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:22 am #432239

Are people upset because the AI killed people at all or because the AI killed people in a way they found to be an epic prank but not (you)?

If someone tells me to Prank people with shocking doors as an example, I'd take that to be a euphemism and would definitely assume antag with me being in the role to screw over the crew as I see fit under the guise of "JUST A PRANK BRAH".

That said, having the AI go a complete 180 from what you expect because they played semantics better than you or misrepresented (intentional/not) what you ordered is a classic ss13 experience. I understand why the ban was placed, but i'm not so sure I wouldn't consider that an unlucky, organic issue. Lesson learned though, be clear and concise ESPECIALLY in laws and orders under custom laws!

ATHATH wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:
ATHATH wrote:I would be amenable to, say, a ban on touching AI modules for a period of time (a week? a month? longer?) instead of the current ban. Whether or not it would apply while I'm an antagonist would be up to you guys, I suppose.

That's not how bans work.
Well, I dunno how you'd mechanically enforce it (except with something extreme like changing the code to detect my ckey or something), but wouldn't it be similar to a jobban in principle? Could you leave a note or something?

I'm just spitballing ideas here, of course.


We are going to do either a gameban, jobban, or noban. Nothing crazy anon.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby oranges » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:50 am #432255

this is an ic issue
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby iamgoofball » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:28 am #432258

he literally didnt deserve the ban though

this is like banning the hop because he told the clown "do a prank" and the clown decided to release plasma

PostThis post was deleted by CitrusGender on Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:18 pm.
Reason: okay this adds like absolutely nothing

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby TehSteveo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:35 am #432270

iamgoofball wrote:he literally didnt deserve the ban though

this is like banning the hop because he told the clown "do a prank" and the clown decided to release plasma
Except the clown isn't held to a lawset that's bound for them to follow. At that point it's on the clown, unless the HoP said something like, "Hey Clown, pull a prank with this here plasma to prank the crew and the like. It's also okay to kill the RD if you want."

The guy may have said AI troll people, but he specified lethal/griefy things that generally are reserved for antagonist actions.

Spoiler:
[2018-08-09 05:50:13.497] SAY: R.O.B.U.S.T./morrisexecute : alright (78,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:14.099] SAY: R.O.B.U.S.T./morrisexecute : so (78,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:14.915] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : keep your existence a secret for now (79,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:16.816] SAY: R.O.B.U.S.T./morrisexecute : what're my orders (78,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:19.303] SAY: R.O.B.U.S.T./morrisexecute : alright (78,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:19.802] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : troll the rest of the crew (79,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:22.929] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : shock doors and the like (79,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:28.919] SAY: R.O.B.U.S.T./morrisexecute : on it boss (78,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:32.488] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : you can kill the other AI if you want (79,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:36.514] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : have fun (80,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:41.857] SAY: R.O.B.U.S.T./morrisexecute : i will (78,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:51.470] SAY: Jack Jackson/ATHATH : I'll come back when the shuttle's about to come and take you with me (79,66,2)
[2018-08-09 05:50:55.133] SAY: R.O.B.U.S.T./morrisexecute : deal (78,66,2)


Now the issue is the OP received complete punishment for actions. He should be banned in regards to the shocked doors killing someone and if his AI did actually kill the other AI.

However, the AI should have been acted upon as well as delamming the SM on purpose is against it's laws. They didn't receive a direct order therefore it violated it's laws even as bad as the law was. All in all both parties were in the wrong.
Last edited by TehSteveo on Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby bandit » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:35 pm #432278

The key here, I think, is the wording of the law. If the law literally says "obey the intents" of Jack's commands" (which it does according to the logs below) then I don't think it's fair to fault the AI for trying to figure out that intent. And since the command the AI got was "shock people and the like, you can kill the other AI if you want," then it's reasonable someone might think the intent is to do antagonistic shit.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby WarbossLincoln » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:30 pm #432284

iamgoofball wrote:he literally didnt deserve the ban though

this is like banning the hop because he told the clown "do a prank" and the clown decided to release plasma


No it would be more like if the HOP gave the clown all access, noslips, and an esword and told him to go prank. And also enslaved the clown to do his bidding.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby TehSteveo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:04 pm #432311

bandit wrote:The key here, I think, is the wording of the law. If the law literally says "obey the intents" of Jack's commands" (which it does according to the logs below) then I don't think it's fair to fault the AI for trying to figure out that intent. And since the command the AI got was "shock people and the like, you can kill the other AI if you want," then it's reasonable someone might think the intent is to do antagonistic shit.
He already stated his intent was to troll, granted he stupidly said shock doors and kill the AI. Yet that somehow led to delamming the SM which could go south and go against the intents of Jack. It's a bad law and all around bad from both parties.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby wesoda25 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:10 pm #432315

Everyone is debating about whether AI is allowed to interpret ATHATHs commands as delamming SM but delamming it literally leads to the AI disobeying their law 1 (Obey the intents of Jack Jackson's commands that are directed at you).

Order to shock doors -> AI delams engine -> No more power -> Can’t shock doors -> Literally disobeying its laws???

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby ATHATH » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:15 pm #432316

wesoda25 wrote:Everyone is debating about whether AI is allowed to interpret ATHATHs commands as delamming SM but delamming it literally leads to the AI disobeying their law 1 (Obey the intents of Jack Jackson's commands that are directed at you).

Order to shock doors -> AI delams engine -> No more power -> Can’t shock doors -> Literally disobeying its laws???

Omegathonk

I don't think that line of reasoning would actually work, though, as I didn't actually command it to shock doors- I told it to do things like shocking doors.

EDIT: Wait, looking at the logs... I think I actually did technically command the AI to shock doors. Huh.

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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby Cobby » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:32 pm #432336

wesoda25 wrote:Everyone is debating about whether AI is allowed to interpret ATHATHs commands as delamming SM but delamming it literally leads to the AI disobeying their law 1 (Obey the intents of Jack Jackson's commands that are directed at you).

Order to shock doors -> AI delams engine -> No more power -> Can’t shock doors -> Literally disobeying its laws???


No his order was to "troll the rest of the crew" with an example of shocking doors, as well as kill the other AI.

Delamming the SM trolls the rest of the crew as well as kills the other AI via attrition. It's the kind of silly logic that helps reach the obvious crux of the problem: The Law and Order were bad.

What the AI's logic was in doesn't really matter though, this is not an appeal for the AI nor do I expect very seriously anyone to use this appeal to ban the AI.

This is about the user who subverted the AI into doing grieffy things, regardless where that lies on your individual "grief scale" and "out of scope of the order/law combo" . They made it vague, used an example of causing harm, then afterwards ordered the killing of a being. Should they or should they not continue to be banned for this?
Last edited by Cobby on Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:34 pm #432337

Cobby wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:Everyone is debating about whether AI is allowed to interpret ATHATHs commands as delamming SM but delamming it literally leads to the AI disobeying their law 1 (Obey the intents of Jack Jackson's commands that are directed at you).

Order to shock doors -> AI delams engine -> No more power -> Can’t shock doors -> Literally disobeying its laws???


No his order was to "troll the rest of the crew" with an example of shocking doors as well as kill the other AI.

Delamming the SM trolls the rest of the crew as well as kills the other AI via attrition.

Okay but really? Do you really think that's what OP intended? Is it really reasonable to assume that?
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby Cobby » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:48 pm #432339

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Cobby wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:Everyone is debating about whether AI is allowed to interpret ATHATHs commands as delamming SM but delamming it literally leads to the AI disobeying their law 1 (Obey the intents of Jack Jackson's commands that are directed at you).

Order to shock doors -> AI delams engine -> No more power -> Can’t shock doors -> Literally disobeying its laws???


No his order was to "troll the rest of the crew" with an example of shocking doors as well as kill the other AI.

Delamming the SM trolls the rest of the crew as well as kills the other AI via attrition.

Okay but really? Do you really think that's what OP intended? Is it really reasonable to assume that?


If I got a harm command followed by a kill command I would think the intent of the first command would be to be a real jackass to the crew.

Sabotaging the engine does that.

Does it matter though? If he killed the same amount of people with shocked doors vs SM delam would that make a difference on if this banned got placed or not?

We're arguing the subtly different levels of station-wide, lethal grief when it doesn't matter, it's the fact they were told to lethally grief at all that does.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby MrAlphonzo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:06 pm #432342

Shocking every single door on the station would be ten times more destructive than sabotaging the supermatter, as it would render any crew member without insulated gloves a complete inability to do their job, and it would get far more people killed. Additionally, if they did succeed in killing the AI, there would be no easy way to fix the airlocks. It would be round ending grief.

The AI was ordered to "Troll the crew", and they gave "shocking doors" as an example.

Shocking doors established a lethal ballpark of what they could do.

The AI, aware that it was allowed to make "pranks" that can (and did) kill people, decided to sabotage the engine.

If it killed the other AI and shocked every door on the station, or sabotaged the supermatter, you'd still get the same round-ending grief result.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] ATHATH - Banned for a Week for the Actions of an AI That I Made

Unread postby Owegno » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:44 pm #432467

The ban is completely justified. It could be edited to say that the SM being delaminated wasn't your fault. I took a look at your notes and the length is a bit harsh but not something I'd consider overly harsh. This is denied.


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