Transparency

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lmwevil
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Transparency

Unread postby lmwevil » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:33 am #437477

Since nobody else asked, how transparent do you believe the headmins should be to the admins and playerbase (answer separately for each please).



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Re: Transparency

Unread postby jcll » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:38 am #437481

To admins. Extremely. Apart from times when sensitive info is involved. Being open is extremely important.
To players. Extremely. Apart from times when sensitive info is involved or it leads to harmful and unnecessary info about players being released. Since our players deserve some level of privacy. And we don't want another goof mess where misinterpreted info and lack of communication lead to a large issue.

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Re: Transparency

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:56 am #437482

admins: yea there isnt much i can think of to keep secret from admins. what we know is what theyll know for the most part unless a player makes a private complaint

players: players will be kept up to date on current event on the server including config changes, big policy changes, and decisions regarding deadminnings/demotions/punishments for admins should those be necessary. most importantly, theyll get why these changes are happening with the full story. sensitive info such as IPs, CIDs, and stuff that could put someone at risk will of course be kept secret.
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Re: Transparency

Unread postby Shezza » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:01 am #437483

There were a few instances this year where lack of transparency created a lot of negative outcomes, i believe headmins failed to properly handle these issues and its what i aim to avoid doing myself.

In summary, people will know whats necessary for them to not sit in the dark and wonder what is happening.
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Re: Transparency

Unread postby CitrusGender » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:18 am #437484

Shezza wrote:There were a few instances this year where lack of transparency created a lot of negative outcomes, i believe headmins failed to properly handle these issues and its what i aim to avoid doing myself.

In summary, people will know whats necessary for them to not sit in the dark and wonder what is happening.


It still makes me laugh that people talk about there being "bad transparency" when, in reality, stuff was just released that probably wouldn't have been released by previous headmin terms. People then have the foresight to think that, because things were previously hidden from them, transparency is bad.

Honestly, this type of mentality just encourages people to keep shit secret more if we're going to go down this route (or release absolutely everything the moment it happens.) You're going to realize that some information such as personal details should be kept secret (I can't imagine you'd want to release them to the world.)

People who think they're going to tell everyone everything are just deluding themselves.
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Re: Transparency

Unread postby wubli » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:46 am #437493

Regarding admins: I wouldn't like to keep things from them at all, and only an extreme case that involved, for example, someone's personal information being leaked would stop me from talking with them, at least until everything's figured out or unless the person didn't mind.

Obviously, if an admin was being investigated it would also be kept a secret until a decision was made - but the full logic behind the conclusion would be announced. This also goes for players. I hope to have a trusting relationship with other admins!

The only true difference between players and admins regarding transparency is that admins would probably find out first, since we would be basically representing the team in a way.

Regarding players: We had a situation in which communication was a mess between headmins and admins and headmins and players. While this damaged some people's trust in them, and I agree that it could have been handled better, I believe it wasn't a complete mistake - their intentions were good, but the lack of communication messed things up.

I'd like to be completely open regarding decisions - but that doesn't mean I'd announce "we've banned X for sexually harassing Y". We've had a case before, which was thoroughly investigated before a decision was made, and thankfully, no problems afterward.

This means I won't be reckless when making decisions and I hardly doubt I'd ever need to keep information hidden because thankfully, at least since I became an admin, we haven't had many cases like that. Saying I'd be 100% transparent disregarding consequences would be a blatant lie and I don't honestly believe any other candidate wouldn't take context into consideration.
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Re: Transparency

Unread postby Shezza » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:19 pm #437694

CitrusGender wrote:
Shezza wrote:There were a few instances this year where lack of transparency created a lot of negative outcomes, i believe headmins failed to properly handle these issues and its what i aim to avoid doing myself.

In summary, people will know whats necessary for them to not sit in the dark and wonder what is happening.


It still makes me laugh that people talk about there being "bad transparency" when, in reality, stuff was just released that probably wouldn't have been released by previous headmin terms. People then have the foresight to think that, because things were previously hidden from them, transparency is bad.

Honestly, this type of mentality just encourages people to keep shit secret more if we're going to go down this route (or release absolutely everything the moment it happens.) You're going to realize that some information such as personal details should be kept secret (I can't imagine you'd want to release them to the world.)

People who think they're going to tell everyone everything are just deluding themselves.


I still think that if it wasn't for the leak and outrage of people the goofball ban would've been swept under the rug just because he's seen as one of the "undesireables" by most.
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Re: Transparency

Unread postby Doctor Pork » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:53 am #437798

Shezza wrote:
CitrusGender wrote:
Shezza wrote:There were a few instances this year where lack of transparency created a lot of negative outcomes, i believe headmins failed to properly handle these issues and its what i aim to avoid doing myself.

In summary, people will know whats necessary for them to not sit in the dark and wonder what is happening.


It still makes me laugh that people talk about there being "bad transparency" when, in reality, stuff was just released that probably wouldn't have been released by previous headmin terms. People then have the foresight to think that, because things were previously hidden from them, transparency is bad.

Honestly, this type of mentality just encourages people to keep shit secret more if we're going to go down this route (or release absolutely everything the moment it happens.) You're going to realize that some information such as personal details should be kept secret (I can't imagine you'd want to release them to the world.)

People who think they're going to tell everyone everything are just deluding themselves.


I still think that if it wasn't for the leak and outrage of people the goofball ban would've been swept under the rug just because he's seen as one of the "undesireables" by most.

I'd agree with this, I think if it wasn't for the leak things would've unfolded in a much more planned out way on the headmin's part so the community would stomach it better and to me that's frankly a little scary considering what the actual situation was. Like of course no if there is some real sensitive shit that needs to be private but that's something to be handled on a case-by-case basis and is a lot different from what happened with the goof incident. IMHO I think going down a road of shadow-y bans on people we don't like for issues that have already been resolved and then refusing to tell anyone -including the admin team- anything until the community and admin team force a statement is a poor road to go down in the future. To say that this sort of thing "makes you laugh" just seems really callous and crass when it was a clear bungle from the start. Although I will say I was in touch with Jimm quite a bit during the incident and his heart was in the right place, imo once the truth was out he handled it a lot better.

OK NOW TO ANSWER THE ACTUAL DEBATE QUESTION:

Admins: Open as much as possible. Any admins who were on the team with me during the incident know this as they all saw me pitch a shitfit every day until we got a statement. When I say "as much as possible" I mean largely what wubli said. It's a lot harder to investigate someone when they know they're under investigation and its a lot harder to protect from a dox if everyone knows a dox is being threatened. Although admins would most likely be the first to know so that when people came with questions the admins wouldn't be like "wait what?" and not be able to help.

Players: Public bans are a no for me. The way I see it is that it's your ban and if you want to share it fine, appeal it fantastic, and if not that's okay to. The admin-player trust is a little bit shaky right now from all the drama this past term but I don't think it's too late to repair it. The players would ideally find out about community issues shortly after the admin team so that all the information is still fresh and to help foster trust with the playerbase. You guys have a right to know when it comes to a lot of stuff in my opinion and in a perfect world I would try to keep everyone out of the dark as much as possible.
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Re: Transparency

Unread postby CitrusGender » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:54 am #437816

Doctor Pork wrote:I still think that if it wasn't for the leak and outrage of people the goofball ban would've been swept under the rug just because he's seen as one of the "undesireables" by most.
I'd agree with this, I think if it wasn't for the leak things would've unfolded in a much more planned out way on the headmin's part so the community would stomach it better and to me that's frankly a little scary considering what the actual situation was. Like of course no if there is some real sensitive shit that needs to be private but that's something to be handled on a case-by-case basis and is a lot different from what happened with the goof incident. IMHO I think going down a road of shadow-y bans on people we don't like for issues that have already been resolved and then refusing to tell anyone -including the admin team- anything until the community and admin team force a statement is a poor road to go down in the future. To say that this sort of thing "makes you laugh" just seems really callous and crass when it was a clear bungle from the start. Although I will say I was in touch with Jimm quite a bit during the incident and his heart was in the right place, imo once the truth was out he handled it a lot better.

>Clear bungle from the start
I talked with every gamemaster about the incident and they reccomended that we release the information in a controlled manner. I spent hours attempting to write the statement that was written just so the community could be better informed about the issue. I discussed the issue with as many admins as I could and the issue wasn't forced by any means. If you intend to use a situation that you have benefit of hindsight with as you issue to beat up on the previous administration, you're nothing but callous yourself.

I literarly reached out to HG and goof myself after I had another headmin quit and neither the Host nor other headmin at the time was online.

If you're going to have an opinion on the situation, stop being bias for your own political gain.

Edit: Also, looking back, you didn't even participate in any of the conversations at the time about the issue. You're literally just speaking from hindsight.
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Re: Transparency

Unread postby Arianya » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:43 am #437820

Doctor Pork wrote: The admin-player trust is a little bit shaky right now from all the drama this past term but I don't think it's too late to repair it.


I'm curious what gives you this impression, as discussions I've had with players both in and out of game have not given me any impression that your average player has "shaky" trust in the administration.

I appreciate the NTR Hut "doesn't play very often" faction can be very loud and insistent but I've genuinely not had anyone give me concern about their trust in the general administration, at worst concerns about a particular admin or the like.

As to my own answers, transparency with admins is very important since it helps ensure that both the admins and headmins are in tune with reality. It does no good if the admins are thinking one thing while the headmins think another. There will of course be times when we have to restrict info where things concern personal information or the like (GDPR!) but generally speaking these are going to be the minority of situations.

I'm not sure I'd change much wrt transparency with players. What we currently have isn't broke, for the most part, and public bans or the like don't strike me as being beneficial for either side.
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Re: Transparency

Unread postby Nervere » Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:44 pm #438286

For players: There's absolutely no reason to hide anything from the playerbase unless someone's safety or personal information is at risk.
Players should know as soon as admins do about policy updates, staffing changes (promotions AND demotions), headmin rulings, and so on.
My general philosophy on the matter is this: the administration is an extension of the community, not the other way around. If the administration begins to unnecessarily hide things
from the community, it's doing a bad job. I pledge to be as open as possible with the community on all matters, except those where someone's info/safety is at stake.

For admins: I feel like transparency to the admin team has been mostly good this term. Some things could definitely have gone better, as others have listed above, but
so long as all admins continue to be informed of what the headmins are thinking about/debating and have a say in the matter, admin transparency is mostly fine. Admins can be assured
that they'll know of all developments before they happen so they can give input and adjust appropriately.

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Re: Transparency

Unread postby Doctor Pork » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:55 pm #438495

CitrusGender wrote:
Doctor Pork wrote:I still think that if it wasn't for the leak and outrage of people the goofball ban would've been swept under the rug just because he's seen as one of the "undesireables" by most.
I'd agree with this, I think if it wasn't for the leak things would've unfolded in a much more planned out way on the headmin's part so the community would stomach it better and to me that's frankly a little scary considering what the actual situation was. Like of course no if there is some real sensitive shit that needs to be private but that's something to be handled on a case-by-case basis and is a lot different from what happened with the goof incident. IMHO I think going down a road of shadow-y bans on people we don't like for issues that have already been resolved and then refusing to tell anyone -including the admin team- anything until the community and admin team force a statement is a poor road to go down in the future. To say that this sort of thing "makes you laugh" just seems really callous and crass when it was a clear bungle from the start. Although I will say I was in touch with Jimm quite a bit during the incident and his heart was in the right place, imo once the truth was out he handled it a lot better.

no u

Sorry I didn't participate in your closed door conversations. Although maybe you don't seem to remember me badgering you and Jimm that whole week trying to find out what was happening, you know since we were pretty much in the dark, only to be met with brick-wall responses such as "The information is still too sensitive" or "we're trying to protect the victim" or actual factual silence from you up until the point a statement was forced. Weird.

Also if you reached out to HG and goof and everything was hunky-dory why did events unfold as they did? Cmon, man. You can't claim I'm doing this for political pursuits when I've been saying this shit the whole term. It's not my fault you don't listen to certain members of your team. So really the question I have is do you think you handled this well or did you make a mistake?

P.s. You can't blame Arm for everything.
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Re: Transparency

Unread postby CitrusGender » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:48 pm #438539

Doctor Pork wrote:
Spoiler:
Sorry I didn't participate in your closed door conversations. Although maybe you don't seem to remember me badgering you and Jimm that whole week trying to find out what was happening, you know since we were pretty much in the dark, only to be met with brick-wall responses such as "The information is still too sensitive" or "we're trying to protect the victim" or actual factual silence from you up until the point a statement was forced. Weird.

Also if you reached out to HG and goof and everything was hunky-dory why did events unfold as they did? Cmon, man. You can't claim I'm doing this for political pursuits when I've been saying this shit the whole term. It's not my fault you don't listen to certain members of your team. So really the question I have is do you think you handled this well or did you make a mistake?

P.s. You can't blame Arm for everything.


Er, I posted the transcript of the entire conversation I had with them. Perhaps if you were around for the whole ordeal, you would know that. Just say you didn't participate in a discussion instead of conflicting yourself by saying 'I didn't participate' and 'I badgered you and Jimm the whole week.' There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm confused about this random hostility pork. I haven't heard much from you all term and then you start to say "you've been doing it the entire time." I honestly heard more from Arm all term than I heard from you (and he was only here for half the term.)
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Re: Transparency

Unread postby Rustledjimm » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:03 pm #438551

Doctor Pork wrote:
P.s. You can't blame Arm for everything.



Can I try?

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Re: Transparency

Unread postby Doctor Pork » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:20 pm #438621

CitrusGender wrote:
Doctor Pork wrote:
Spoiler:
Sorry I didn't participate in your closed door conversations. Although maybe you don't seem to remember me badgering you and Jimm that whole week trying to find out what was happening, you know since we were pretty much in the dark, only to be met with brick-wall responses such as "The information is still too sensitive" or "we're trying to protect the victim" or actual factual silence from you up until the point a statement was forced. Weird.

Also if you reached out to HG and goof and everything was hunky-dory why did events unfold as they did? Cmon, man. You can't claim I'm doing this for political pursuits when I've been saying this shit the whole term. It's not my fault you don't listen to certain members of your team. So really the question I have is do you think you handled this well or did you make a mistake?

P.s. You can't blame Arm for everything.


Er, I posted the transcript of the entire conversation I had with them. Perhaps if you were around for the whole ordeal, you would know that. Just say you didn't participate in a discussion instead of conflicting yourself by saying 'I didn't participate' and 'I badgered you and Jimm the whole week.' There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm confused about this random hostility pork. I haven't heard much from you all term and then you start to say "you've been doing it the entire time." I honestly heard more from Arm all term than I heard from you (and he was only here for half the term.)

There is no axe to grind. The topic of this thread is transparency and the relevant issue is the goof incident, an incident you admittedly a large part of handling. To shrug this all off as "hostility" is a cop out and frankly PKP summed it up best in response to your endorsement on my campaign thread. I was however present during the incident and if you somehow missed my prying at the headmin team during the whole mess it "is what it is".

In any case, would you be willing to answer the question in my previous post? I just want to know your take on it.
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Re: Transparency

Unread postby CitrusGender » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:42 pm #438626

Doctor Pork wrote:
CitrusGender wrote:
Doctor Pork wrote:
Spoiler:
Sorry I didn't participate in your closed door conversations. Although maybe you don't seem to remember me badgering you and Jimm that whole week trying to find out what was happening, you know since we were pretty much in the dark, only to be met with brick-wall responses such as "The information is still too sensitive" or "we're trying to protect the victim" or actual factual silence from you up until the point a statement was forced. Weird.

Also if you reached out to HG and goof and everything was hunky-dory why did events unfold as they did? Cmon, man. You can't claim I'm doing this for political pursuits when I've been saying this shit the whole term. It's not my fault you don't listen to certain members of your team. So really the question I have is do you think you handled this well or did you make a mistake?

P.s. You can't blame Arm for everything.


Er, I posted the transcript of the entire conversation I had with them. Perhaps if you were around for the whole ordeal, you would know that. Just say you didn't participate in a discussion instead of conflicting yourself by saying 'I didn't participate' and 'I badgered you and Jimm the whole week.' There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm confused about this random hostility pork. I haven't heard much from you all term and then you start to say "you've been doing it the entire time." I honestly heard more from Arm all term than I heard from you (and he was only here for half the term.)

There is no axe to grind. The topic of this thread is transparency and the relevant issue is the goof incident, an incident you admittedly a large part of handling. To shrug this all off as "hostility" is a cop out and frankly PKP summed it up best in response to your endorsement on my campaign thread. I was however present during the incident and if you somehow missed my prying at the headmin team during the whole mess it "is what it is".

In any case, would you be willing to answer the question in my previous post? I just want to know your take on it.


yeah we weren't perfect.

I wrote the body of the headmin statement and I don't particularly think there was a correct solution to the situation with the amount of information that was flying around. I'm not exactly easy on myself in that statement either.

We were juggling the wishes of many different people who didn't want to be involved in the situation, other people withholding information, and people leaving during the course of it that made the matter much more complicated and time consuming.

All I can say is that the information would have been released no matter what, the only matter was just the time that it would take since there were so many things going on that week and there were a lot of people who wanted to put their hand into the pot.
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Re: Transparency

Unread postby Doctor Pork » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:58 pm #438676

-snip-

Thank you.

I appreciate you taking the time to debate with me this past week~ and hopefully moving forward we can be a more cohesive team if/when situations such as this arise. Hopefully whoever the elects turn out to be share this belief of openness with the team and your willingness to make tough decisions. I'm glad to work alongside someone like you Citrus.
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