[PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

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[PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:55 pm #438466

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/40195
Supplementary Video:


Isn't this just Gang?
Fuck no. Only thing similar is tagging turf and the fact gangs are involved. This mode is completely different otherwise.

Shit, where do I sign up?
Ask a family member where their Signup Point is, and then simply click on it with an open hand. You'll be signed up for the family instantly, and given some sick threads and a spraycan for tagging.

How do I rep my family?
Wear your gang's uniform or colors similar.

What does it mean to roll with a crew?
Travel in a group of four or more for bonus points towards your gang.
However, you receive less for having eight or more, so be careful. Try to spread your crews out!

I'm an X, what do?
Gangster: Yeah, go do whatever. Wanna backstab your gang? Go for it. You can switch sides at any time by clicking on an enemy gang's sign up point. Wanna murder some snitch because they ratted you out to the pigs? Do it. Wanna pressure the locals into supplying you with goods to export? Emergent gameplay.
Security: They can join up with gangs. Nothing is stopping them, implants aren't involved at all. This gamemode is intended to see how well players organize and stay united, or if they backstab eachother. It's all emergent gameplay.
Civillians: Wanna join a gang? Go for it. Try to stay out of the Gangster's spotlight, but if you're repping someone else's colors, don't expect to be given a free pass. After all, uniforms are the only way to really identify a gang member.

No huds? How can I tell if someone's part of my group?
Tough shit, man. I hope you like trust.

In short, this gamemode will be a fun exercise in how far the playerbase can go in regards to trusting eachother and unifying to meet a common goal for their group with no rules, gameplay mechanics, or anything actively forcing them to work together.

I'm an admin, what do I need to know about the valids?
Gangster VS Gangster: Valid. All times. Even if it's same-team. These crime families aren't exactly known for their stability or rigid code of honor.
Gangster VS Civvie: Don't fuck with people who aren't repping colors. Unless they start shit with you.
Civvie VS Gangster: Don't start shit for no good reason.
Security: Security IS civvies for all intents and purposes. Unless they join up with a gang.

updated rules as of 9:24 am on 9/9/18
Don't start mass murdering gangs unless you have a good reason. THIS GOES FOR ALL PLAYERS.

Security should only fuck with gangsters when they start actually breaking the law, or bring them in for vandalism or whatever.

If a gang is in your workplace and you want to throw them out, go for it. If it ends badly for you, that's life. If not, you won.

If someone's not wearing a gang outfit or gang colors, don't treat them like a gangster. Assume they're a civvie. If they pull out a shank and start going for you, just fall back on normal escalation rules.

Quite frankly, just use standard Escalation rules, with one exception:

No mass destruction/gas flooding.
Last edited by iamgoofball on Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:40 pm, edited 6 times in total.



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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Lumbermancer » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:04 pm #438469

I was about to ask what will stop Sec from murdering everyone, then I've read your solution is a game-mode specific abridgement of server rules? How do you think it will work out?
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Mickyan » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:14 pm #438471

So gangster vs gangster is always valid even for unrestricted teamkilling but gangster vs civvie is not despite the fact neither can tell which is which

Yes this will end well

We're going to need an entire page of rules and policy for this mode alone and that might just be a sign that this isn't such a well-thought idea

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:19 pm #438476

Lumbermancer wrote:I was about to ask what will stop Sec from murdering everyone, then I've read your solution is a game-mode specific abridgement of server rules? How do you think it will work out?

I think it'll be fine, honestly.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:21 pm #438477

Mickyan wrote:So gangster vs gangster is always valid even for unrestricted teamkilling but gangster vs civvie is not despite the fact neither can tell which is which

Shit, you right. Lemme update it real quick.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Lumbermancer » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:32 pm #438480

iamgoofball wrote:I think it'll be fine, honestly.


I don't think it will. If you have to explain your valid rules to admins, you will then have to explain them to players, then you expect admins to enforce them because the whole mode hinges on this working. I think you would have to hard-code ROE yourself, if you want for it to work out.
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:04 pm #438483

Lumbermancer wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:I think it'll be fine, honestly.


I don't think it will. If you have to explain your valid rules to admins, you will then have to explain them to players, then you expect admins to enforce them because the whole mode hinges on this working. I think you would have to hard-code ROE yourself, if you want for it to work out.

We just had a round of this get ran, overall it's good in short small bursts.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Arianya » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:07 pm #438484

Thoughts from a testmerged round:

  • General timer inaccuracy (near-shift-start announcement happened too early and round ended too late)
  • Coder sprites
    Spoiler:
    Image
  • Security/implanted people can become gang members (this is very very bad)
  • No admin-hud symbol for gang members
  • Voluntary sign up means people are functionally self-antagging
  • Your round-related rules amendments would turn the round into functionally TDM

In general my view of this is that it's inferior both to old-gangs and overthrow, even if the more obvious WIP points were addressed.
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:13 pm #438485

Arianya wrote:Thoughts from a testmerged round:

  • General timer inaccuracy (near-shift-start announcement happened too early and round ended too late)
  • Coder sprites
    Spoiler:
    Image
  • Security/implanted people can become gang members (this is very very bad)
  • No admin-hud symbol for gang members
  • Voluntary sign up means people are functionally self-antagging
  • Your round-related rules amendments would turn the round into functionally TDM

In general my view of this is that it's inferior both to old-gangs and overthrow, even if the more obvious WIP points were addressed.

>General timer inaccuracy (near-shift-start announcement happened too early and round ended too late)

It was accurately timed on local testing, cant do too much about it in live due to lag.

>Coder sprites

My spriter requested I get the PR first before spriting to make sure it's real.

>No admin hud

You have view antag, I can probably add one though.

>Voluntary Sign Ups

Yes, this is a core gameplay feature, being able to switch sides at any time. Adds to the emergent gameplay and roleplay of it. People don't join gangs by getting stabbed with a pen and brainwashed, it's dumb. I want players to join gangs of their free will, and to potentially betray those gangs out of free will. I'm going to up the round timer to 1 hour instead of 30 minutes, too.

>Your round-related rules amendments would turn the round into functionally TDM

This only turns into TDM if you approach it from a play to win attitude.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Arianya » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:23 pm #438486

iamgoofball wrote:>Voluntary Sign Ups

Yes, this is a core gameplay feature, being able to switch sides at any time. Adds to the emergent gameplay and roleplay of it. People don't join gangs by getting stabbed with a pen and brainwashed, it's dumb. I want players to join gangs of their free will, and to potentially betray those gangs out of free will. I'm going to up the round timer to 1 hour instead of 30 minutes, too.


I appreciate that you have a certain vision of this mode but take it from me in the best possible way that this isn't going to result in emergent gameplay and roleplay, it's going to result in people seeing the mode as a stress relief "fuck the rules kill everyone" round.

>Your round-related rules amendments would turn the round into functionally TDM

This only turns into TDM if you approach it from a play to win attitude.


Similar to the above, take it from me that the people who don't want to approach it as TDM will be killed by the people that do.
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:36 pm #438488

Arianya wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:>Voluntary Sign Ups

Yes, this is a core gameplay feature, being able to switch sides at any time. Adds to the emergent gameplay and roleplay of it. People don't join gangs by getting stabbed with a pen and brainwashed, it's dumb. I want players to join gangs of their free will, and to potentially betray those gangs out of free will. I'm going to up the round timer to 1 hour instead of 30 minutes, too.


I appreciate that you have a certain vision of this mode but take it from me in the best possible way that this isn't going to result in emergent gameplay and roleplay, it's going to result in people seeing the mode as a stress relief "fuck the rules kill everyone" round.

>Your round-related rules amendments would turn the round into functionally TDM

This only turns into TDM if you approach it from a play to win attitude.


Similar to the above, take it from me that the people who don't want to approach it as TDM will be killed by the people that do.


I have faith in our players. You should really have faith in them too.

What matters is that the players are having fun. If they decide to have fun in a different way with it, I don't have a problem with it.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Grazyn » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:51 pm #438492

gang A vs gang B: valid
gang A vs gang A: valid
gang vs civvie: valid
civvie vs gang: valid
self ganging: valid

It's not even TDM, it's basically DM if people want to play it as such.

it will require admins to put their foot down and stomp anyone who goes "Yes I killed everyone because it's valid"

I don't think our server is ready for this but if you say the test merge went ok then eeeh, let's give it a shot

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Cobby » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:57 pm #438520

The only thing I would have to enforce really is no murderbone unless you have very good reason
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:05 pm #438525

I've updated the rulez

now civvie on gangster violence and vice versa is a NO-GO unless you've got a really fucking good reason

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Arianya » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:21 pm #438531

iamgoofball wrote:I have faith in our players. You should really have faith in them too.

What matters is that the players are having fun. If they decide to have fun in a different way with it, I don't have a problem with it.


Image

I appreciate you toning down the proposed rules for the round but it still leaves a lot of stuff unclear. If a gang is hanging out in my workplace is that reason enough to kick them out/start shit as a civvie? Can Security arrest gangsters as they would any other antagonist? What burden of proof do I need as a gangster to presume a "civvie" is actually an undercover gangster?

For reference, the second round of this resulted in a fair amount of ill feeling in dchat/OOC, a bombing, station wide power loss, plasmafloods, and the above mentioned lesser ash drake going rampant, and then people kind of milled about boredly on the hostile enviroment escape shuttle till the timer ran out.
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:31 pm #438533

Arianya wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:I have faith in our players. You should really have faith in them too.

What matters is that the players are having fun. If they decide to have fun in a different way with it, I don't have a problem with it.


Image

I appreciate you toning down the proposed rules for the round but it still leaves a lot of stuff unclear. If a gang is hanging out in my workplace is that reason enough to kick them out/start shit as a civvie? Can Security arrest gangsters as they would any other antagonist? What burden of proof do I need as a gangster to presume a "civvie" is actually an undercover gangster?

For reference, the second round of this resulted in a fair amount of ill feeling in dchat/OOC, a bombing, station wide power loss, plasmafloods, and the above mentioned lesser ash drake going rampant, and then people kind of milled about boredly on the hostile enviroment escape shuttle till the timer ran out.


I made the mistake of upping the timer to 60 minutes from 30, and that was overkill. I've dropped it back down to 30 minutes.

Don't go murderboning people if you don't have a good reason. Follow escalation.

Security should only fuck with gangsters when they start actually breaking the law, or bring them in for vandalism or whatever.

If a gang is in your workplace and you want to throw them out, go for it. If it ends badly for you, that's life. If not, you won.

If someone's not wearing a gang outfit or gang colors, don't treat them like a gangster. Assume they're a civvie. If they pull out a shank and start going for you, just fall back on normal escalation rules.

Quite frankly, just use standard Escalation rules, with one exception:

No mass destruction/gas flooding.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Lumbermancer » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:54 pm #438544

What if everyone started as an assistant, and from that gangs and cliques were formed. People would break in, scavenge, do what gangs do in a dilapidated area. Space Detroit.
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Mickyan » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:01 pm #438549

So it's an opt-in deathmatch where non partecipants have to use escalation policy against antags

And you somehow think people that aren't interested in participating aren't just going to suicide at roundstart knowing the round will be over in 30 minutes

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:07 pm #438553

Sounds real boring (oh boy opt in grief with no real reason to antagonize for a full hour) and really flawed in a lot of ways. For example if I wanted to win as crew I'd just ask where the volunteer area is and wall it off/camp it out.
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:16 pm #438561

Suspending rule four for this game mode is a crutch for a poorly designed mode.
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:21 pm #438567

Mickyan wrote:So it's an opt-in deathmatch where non partecipants have to use escalation policy against antags


its not an opt in deathmatch jesus christ stop thinking of it as a deathmatch when nothing directly rewards you for killing

there is no incentive to kill coded in this gamemode

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Rustledjimm » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:29 pm #438568

A game mode that requires altering our rules before implementation doesn't seem like one that is going to get very far.

Not saying this is useless and dumb, just perhaps needs some rethinking or tweaking.
Last edited by Rustledjimm on Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Mickyan » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:32 pm #438569

iamgoofball wrote:there is no incentive to kill coded in this gamemode

The thing you don't seem to get is you don't need to give people an excuse to start killing, you just need to give them permission

We need rules that are an essay long because it's a well documented fact that strangers on the internet will fuck things up for everyone no matter how nicely you ask them not to, and gamemodes need to be designed with that in mind

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Lumbermancer » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:28 pm #438583

iamgoofball wrote:its not an opt in deathmatch jesus christ stop thinking of it as a deathmatch when nothing directly rewards you for killing

there is no incentive to kill coded in this gamemode


I'm confused. Isn't the whole point getting more score than enemy gang? Thus having more people? Thus killing enemy gang benefits yours?
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:45 pm #438586

iamgoofball wrote:
Mickyan wrote:So it's an opt-in deathmatch where non partecipants have to use escalation policy against antags


its not an opt in deathmatch jesus christ stop thinking of it as a deathmatch when nothing directly rewards you for killing

there is no incentive to kill coded in this gamemode

There is really no incentive to actually antagonize is all I'm reading here. What I mean by "antagonize" is a type of action that creates a round-driving conflict.
No, spraying graffiti is not antagonistic. It's easy to ignore and inconveniences nobody. There's no conflict in that.
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby BebeYoshi » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:26 pm #438591

I'm going to be direct, the win conditions seems really boring since, as we learnt from clock cult, having a fixed round time is a really bad ideia and is not fun for anyone, it's either too long (round is over by 10 minutes or so) or too short(nothing happens etc). I don't have any better ideia for a win condition in mind but this should probably be worked on, same with the conflict with some rules. Great job despite these facts!
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Fatal » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:46 pm #438608

I like the idea of the gamemode but it really doesn't suit our playerbase and low RP style

Given the chance the majority of people will choose to be an antagonist, and the two rounds we played today were pretty horrific

First round, I was AI, which is always going to be hell in such a gamemode, but the Captain and half the security force joined gang sides which basically fucked the balance up

Second round, medbay / robotics got bombed and some dick plasma flooded the entire station leaving everyone to basically go afk for 15 minutes in a corner until the round ended

I know you addressed the issue of mass destruction but, the server just can't handle the mode

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Ayy Lemoh » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:07 pm #438656

Fatal wrote:I like the idea of the gamemode but it really doesn't suit our playerbase and low RP style

Given the chance the majority of people will choose to be an antagonist, and the two rounds we played today were pretty horrific

First round, I was AI, which is always going to be hell in such a gamemode, but the Captain and half the security force joined gang sides which basically fucked the balance up

Second round, medbay / robotics got bombed and some dick plasma flooded the entire station leaving everyone to basically go afk for 15 minutes in a corner until the round ended

I know you addressed the issue of mass destruction but, the server just can't handle the mode

Sometimes the admins have to put a line in the sand.

You have fair criticism however if the issue is 'even if mass destruction isn't allowed, we can't handle it' then that just means a rule has to be enforced.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Nalzul » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:06 pm #438920

A few QoL changes that I feel would make the game mode a lot more enjoyable for everyone.

Security cannot join gangs.
It makes no sense and removes the validity for actual arrests. Currently there's no reason to NOT arrest any gang members.

Heads cannot join gangs.
Heads are under the authority of the captain/Cent Com, and shouldn't be able to be gang members. I think this follows the same reason as Security, but with a bit more power in your department.

Make 3 random person with a job not listed above into the Godfather (or whatever).
A Godfather can make a gang signup wherever they want within their own territory. This means they spawn in with a spray can. I just had a round where two of the sign-ups were in cargo bay, but the other was deep into maintenance.

Give an icon (like cultists/revs] for people in your gang.
Unless you wear your colors it's really damn hard to actually tell who's in your gang. I understand that there's supposed to be an element of trust, but if this is truly a family it makes no sense to not know who family is. Godfather also has a unique symbol so you can show your respect to him.

Allow items to be bought from your signup point using points.
Kind of like how gangs were, but having some weapons would be nice. Most of the time people use their department weapons to kill each other. This can also let you rep your colors more, with colored body armor, specialized hats and such.

A HUD element shows up on people on your turf, which means they're a gang member and become valid.
Murderboning was a complaint that gangs suffered from a lot, and eventually the game became TDM. Personally I like the idea of "turf" and feel like it can be expanded much more.

Murdering civilians and gang members that aren't on your turf deducts points from your gang.
This adds reasons to not murderbone even further.

Points are displayed on the status tab.

After a certain amount of point deduction [from murderboning or massively buying items] you are kicked out of the gang and cannot join further gangs.
Adds more reason to not murderbone or join a family to drain their points.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby mikeike545 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:09 pm #438921

Giving people the option to become antags in this game and then expecting 'roleplay' is the worst thing I've possibly ever heard in my life. Sure, if this was more 'roleplay' heavy, maybe. But even then, imagine asking a janitor if he'd like to keep his boring job or go out and fight another gang. I wonder what he'll choose unless he's the most boring pedestrian user.

And the friction between gangs isn't really any different than any other gamemode. We're competing. Our goals intersect. The only difference is that death isn't absolutely 100% necessary to win despite the fact that it'll definitely go to those levels, because there's no reason not to. I know for some odd reason it was stated that it's "roleplay" when it happens this way but.. n.. no it's not it's just the same as like nations. Speaking of nations there's also incentive to get everyone in your department on the same team so really it can just go that way and I know the last time I did this I was CE and made everyone in my department join the same gang as me.

The only thing this has over other rounds is that mass destruction isn't allowed and even then, like an engineer can still cut power, medical can still refuse service.

There's incredible incentive to fuck over the other gangs and thus just cause the same violence you'll get anywhere else and I'm sorry if more fighting except for a very slightly different reason isn't "roleplay" to me.

At the least why don't we try something less absurd if we're trying to get people into 'roleplaying' on /tg/

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby subject217 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:28 pm #438928

The game mode is inherently incompatible with the /tg/ station player base. Expecting security players not to valid let alone just not detain people who are obviously antagonists just doesn't work here. Letting security players join the gangs turns it into opt-out TDM, and not letting sec join the gangs would lead to the same problem as old gangs. It's just gangs with the ability to opt-out (it's not really opt-in when it's the only interesting thing happening in the round and it's completely self contained).

As a random example, let's say that one gang is trying to steal something from any random place. While you might think people would try to keep them out and call security and have a nice organic conflict of that sort, what actually happens is that either the people inside the place are on the people trying to steal's team, and they get the item for free, or they're on someone else's team, and they get murdered and spaced. There isn't really an obligation not to join, as I see it.

Another big issue is that it's really not obvious who is on who's team, which leads to a lot of misery and admin problems in a variety of situations.

Anyway, that's basically the impression I got after observing ~2.5 rounds of it. I doubt you'll consider that "feedback" because I'm basically saying the idea is hopeless, so here's some other feedback:
The gangs need admin combo HUD icons. You could make the icon a number, 1,2, and 3 for each gang respectively.
The ending of the round is anti-climactic and boring. The game mode in general lacks clear goals so the round doesn't really progress.

I really don't see how this is a roleplay game mode when there is no penalty for joining a gang and anyone on a different gang is valid.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:55 pm #438931

I did not have fun with this mode. My suggestions:

1. Voluntary signups are okay, but there needs to be incentives not to join a gang. I don't have any good ideas for this. By default you should be on security's team or a neutral team with the goal to keep the station in good condition and keep as much of the station alive as possible, no matter what the side. Probably the latter.

2. There needs to be a way to identify friendly/hostile gangsters. A HUD would be best, but I can tell you don't like that design so I won't bother suggesting it. I was thinking tattoos on your chest which are concealed with your jumpsuit on so people can tell with clothes stripped, but disguises are still viable. Printable lists with every gang member on it from the signup points (I was thinking about having it sprited as a console). They'll let you know for sure while also taking time to consult, and the gameplay of stealing them off other gangsters for intel.

3. Suspension of rule four is ridiculous. Add mechanical incentives to not kill people. ie, massive exponential point loss for killing innocents, gang v gang and gang v sec should always be allowed and incentivised. Code solutions are nearly always better than policy solutions. The less policy associated with a mode, the less complicated for admins and players.

Escalation policy between gangs, sec, and other gangs needs to just go entirely. Signing up for a gang is a crime in and of itself (Enemy of the Corporation). Gangs should not have to piss each other off to fight each other when they're already fighting over the same turf. Policy against innocents is kinda iffy, I'm against it but I want mechanical incentives not to in place of it. This also kinda goes under an incentive not to join a gang. Why would I not join a gang if I'm OOCly protected no matter what?

4. As Subject217 said, the ending sucks. Find something more climactic, Robustin did a good job with this on cult so maybe a huge end round battle over the shuttle or something.

5. Needs more point generation: The gang signup points should have a console to buy stuff use to generate more points, but that stuff also has requirements that need to be fulfilled.

Examples:
Punishment Killing- Put a rival gang member on a stake and display it in a specific room given to you when you buy that object.

Drug Processor- Put controlled substances in here to gain points. Gives incentives to recruit various departments such as botany and chemistry. Huge maintenance drug labs would be pretty cool.

Weapons Factories- Feed it metal and glass to make stetchkins and uzis depending on the level. These are naturally expensive to make and the weapons are expensive to produce, hopefully putting a soft cap on the amount of guns in one round + making it late game content. Guns can be sold on the black market for big bucks.

Counterfeit Machine- Feed it paper and pens, get counterfeit money to be sold on the blackmarket. Kind of low level point generation.

Hacking Machines- Place in the same room as the enemy gang signup points to start slowly siphoning their points to you. Gives a huge alert to the enemy gang when this happens.

6. Make security the fourth gang with the goal of protecting innocents. They get mega point losses for killing innocents. Their points would be calculated something like:

(living innocents and security)/total living and nondetained crew

Additionally, imprisoned gangsters count for an unholy amount compared to a dead one. Imprisoned being defined as in permabrig, a timed cell, or gulag.

Confiscating contraband gives security points, but usually not enough to offset murderboning the crew.

There will need to be some (a lot of) tweaking to make sure security has a chance of staying competitive with enemy gangs because their methods of point generation are so different.

Anyway thats my actual good faith feedback on the mode goof. It will fail in its current state and I don't even know if it'll be good with these changes, but those are the best improvements I can think of to make it bearable if we HAVE to keep it
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:06 am #438933

Nalzul wrote:A few QoL changes that I feel would make the game mode a lot more enjoyable for everyone.

Security cannot join gangs.
Negative. Same with the below. I've seen interesting scenarios already happen with Security and heads being able to either join up or take sides. We've had corrupt cops, we've had cops betray other cops for their gang, we've had cops stopping other cops from murdering gangsters, it's produced interesting gameplay. If we make them completely unable to join up, they'll be left with "do we wait to arrest the gangsters until they act up or do we just arrest and murder them all"
Heads cannot join gangs.
Same as above.

Make 3 random person with a job not listed above into the Godfather (or whatever).
Not having a leader/economy for the gang is part of the core design.

Give an icon (like cultists/revs] for people in your gang.
That's a negative, sorry. This would completely kill paranoia and I don't want there to be any way to confirm a gang member for certain. A key of this gamemode is there is no absolutes. No absolute valids, no absolute confirmations.

Allow items to be bought from your signup point using points.
This is part of what turned gang into a murderfest before. There's nothing I can give them that will be unique that isn't weapons or cosmetic.

A HUD element shows up on people on your turf, which means they're a gang member and become valid.
Same issue with huds mentioned before.

Murdering civilians and gang members that aren't on your turf deducts points from your gang.
Due to how weapons and damage work, I can't reasonably figure out who killed who.

Points are displayed on the status tab.
This can be done, I'll look into it.


subject217 wrote:The game mode is inherently incompatible with the /tg/ station player base. Expecting security players not to valid let alone just not detain people who are obviously antagonists just doesn't work here.

It only doesn't work because you keep denying it. It can work. You have to learn to adapt. Get good, basically.
I keep noticing people just say "its incompatible, it just doesn't work". And quite frankly, you need to trust in your players. They can learn to not just valid-salad immediately. Tough shit, maybe it'll take awhile. But they'll learn.
mikeike545 wrote:Giving people the option to become antags in this game and then expecting 'roleplay' is the worst thing I've possibly ever heard in my life. Sure, if this was more 'roleplay' heavy, maybe. But even then, imagine asking a janitor if he'd like to keep his boring job or go out and fight another gang. I wonder what he'll choose unless he's the most boring pedestrian user.

If people are having fun, they're having fun. That's all I care about.

BeeSting12 wrote:I did not have fun with this mode. My suggestions:

1. Voluntary signups are okay, but there needs to be incentives not to join a gang. I don't have any good ideas for this. By default you should be on security's team or a neutral team with the goal to keep the station in good condition and keep as much of the station alive as possible, no matter what the side. Probably the latter.
Provide a reason for there being incentives to NOT join a gang. Why should security be an independent team? I'm trying to break away from the cliches of conversion modes here, and one of those is "security is always the good guys". Get over it.

2. There needs to be a way to identify friendly/hostile gangsters.
No. Part of the core design of this gamemode is there are no certainties, no set in stone tells, no hardcoded antag checks.

3. Suspension of rule four is ridiculous.
You very clearly didn't read anything in the thread. Please go back and use your eyeballs. You can get over not being able to max-cap the station, especially seeing as rule 4 is not suspended because these are not lone antags.


Escalation policy between gangs, sec, and other gangs needs to just go entirely. Signing up for a gang is a crime in and of itself (Enemy of the Corporation). Gangs should not have to piss each other off to fight each other when they're already fighting over the same turf.


4. As Subject217 said, the ending sucks. Find something more climactic, Robustin did a good job with this on cult so maybe a huge end round battle over the shuttle or something.
Spoiler:
I've got plans in regards to the Space Cops.


5. Needs more point generation: The gang signup points should have a console to buy stuff use to generate more points, but that stuff also has requirements that need to be fulfilled.
Buying stuff would require me to either give them weapons(encouraging murder, which I distinctly recall saying is NOT THE POINT), or cosmetics, which is pointless, even if it's visually cool, since we already give free access to everything with the many many many costume vendors.

Buying special machines? Sure, that's a good idea.


Examples:
Punishment Killing- Put a rival gang member on a stake and display it in a specific room given to you when you buy that object.

Drug Processor- Put controlled substances in here to gain points. Gives incentives to recruit various departments such as botany and chemistry. Huge maintenance drug labs would be pretty cool.
This is on the todo list, yes.

Weapons Factories- Feed it metal and glass to make stetchkins and uzis depending on the level. These are naturally expensive to make and the weapons are expensive to produce, hopefully putting a soft cap on the amount of guns in one round + making it late game content. Guns can be sold on the black market for big bucks.
You have access to plenty of weapons, use what you have on the station already.

Counterfeit Machine- Feed it paper and pens, get counterfeit money to be sold on the blackmarket. Kind of low level point generation.
I have sprites for this and am figuring out a implementation method.

Hacking Machines- Place in the same room as the enemy gang signup points to start slowly siphoning their points to you. Gives a huge alert to the enemy gang when this happens.
This is a good idea but I'm iffy about it. I'll think about it.

6. Make security the fourth gang with the goal of protecting innocents. They get mega point losses for killing innocents. Their points would be calculated something like:
Nope. If security is a gang, Security will be a gang just like the other gangs, no special snowflake "forced good guy". And currently, they function better as civvies, since they have weapons access. See the rest of this post for details.


Something that needs to die is "security = good guys, anything else = bad guys" mentality. This is not the way you need to be thinking when it comes to this mode. I know it's hard to break out of the box, but think outside it a bit.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:28 am #438934

There needs to be incentives to not join a gang because children play this server and they might get the wrong idea from it and join a gang irl.

Spoiler:
sorry i cant right any more good feedback so im shitposting.


anyway i dont see this being successful if you continue with this whole "suspend rule 4" thing. two soon to be headmins dont appear to like it much so i doubt it will be put in rotation either if its merged
Stickymayhem wrote:you're right!

Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:35 am #438935

BeeSting12 wrote:There needs to be incentives to not join a gang because children play this server and they might get the wrong idea from it and join a gang irl.

Spoiler:
sorry i cant right any more good feedback so im shitposting.


anyway i dont see this being successful if you continue with this whole "suspend rule 4" thing. two soon to be headmins dont appear to like it much so i doubt it will be put in rotation either if its merged

Rule 4 isn't suspended. Rule 4 says "lone antagonists". These aren't lone antagonists. And tough shit, it'll be in rotation, and I'm going to make sure it's in rotation.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:39 am #438936

4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

inb4 they have no prior cause xD

yea we already know theyre gonna be tagging shit and fighting people
Stickymayhem wrote:you're right!

Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:44 am #438937

Can you prove how bombing the station to nothing is a fun and exciting gameplay aspect in a 30 minute round? Because this restriction was put in place after one of those soon-to-be headmins said that free will was a bad idea here.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:55 am #438939

i think bombing the station is harmful to your team
Stickymayhem wrote:you're right!

Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby subject217 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:12 am #438946

iamgoofball wrote:I keep noticing people just say "its incompatible, it just doesn't work". And quite frankly, you need to trust in your players. They can learn to not just valid-salad immediately. Tough shit, maybe it'll take awhile. But they'll learn.


The thing is that no other game mode is enforced like this really (except to some extent the completely absent internal affairs agents). Expecting players to be in full validhunt murdermode almost all of the time then happen to turn it off when one game mode happens is wholly unrealistic.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:27 am #438950

BeeSting12 wrote:i think bombing the station is harmful to your team

Then people need to be getting dinged for bombing the station under this rule, because rule 4 isn't suspended.

However, betraying your team and switching sides is perfectly okay, since it's an intended mechanic, before you even try it.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:28 am #438951

subject217 wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:I keep noticing people just say "its incompatible, it just doesn't work". And quite frankly, you need to trust in your players. They can learn to not just valid-salad immediately. Tough shit, maybe it'll take awhile. But they'll learn.


The thing is that no other game mode is enforced like this really (except to some extent the completely absent internal affairs agents). Expecting players to be in full validhunt murdermode almost all of the time then happen to turn it off when one game mode happens is wholly unrealistic.


Quite frankly, I think it's a breath of fresh air that we have a gamemode that is not 100% validhunt murdermode. If our players are in 100% validhunt murdermode all the time, we've fucked up as game designers.

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:24 pm.

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:24 pm.

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Lumbermancer » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:41 am #438982

iamgoofball wrote:Something that needs to die is "security = good guys, anything else = bad guys" mentality. This is not the way you need to be thinking when it comes to this mode. I know it's hard to break out of the box, but think outside it a bit.


But...then...you don't want sec to just go out and beat people up...? Just remove security from this mode.
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:47 am #438983

Lumbermancer wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:Something that needs to die is "security = good guys, anything else = bad guys" mentality. This is not the way you need to be thinking when it comes to this mode. I know it's hard to break out of the box, but think outside it a bit.


But...then...you don't want sec to just go out and beat people up...? Just remove security from this mode.

I'm considering it. I'm iffy about it, though, because security being able to intervene makes emergent gameplay

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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby Lumbermancer » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:52 am #438985

But security is civvies, and you want civvies not to get involved unless gangs start shit with you.

Only families match I played was latejoin when station was burned down to the ground, so I lack first hand experience.
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Re: [PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

Unread postby iamgoofball » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:38 am #438987

Lumbermancer wrote:But security is civvies, and you want civvies not to get involved unless gangs start shit with you.

Only families match I played was latejoin when station was burned down to the ground, so I lack first hand experience.

I'd say it's fair for civvies to get involved if fellow civvies are getting fucked up by gangs. Just depends on how loyal you are to the other civvies.

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