Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

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Hathkar
 
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Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby Hathkar » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:41 pm #439312

I didn't see a thread, so here's one.

Thoughts/Input/Feedback/Complaints/etc. on Overthrow.


So first of all, I played my first round as a sleeper agent. An immediate problem was the misleading red roundstart text. It said that the implanter and AI law board were in my storage implant, when they were in my bag. Also, there's ZERO indication that the conversion implanter can be used more than once. This also clashes with the objectives you're given: You are told to CONVERT if possible, and avoid killing. Kinda hard to do with only 2 implants and 4 targets. It would be nice if you could purchase more implants via uplink or something?

Also, I was told in OOC later that people you convert get uplinks as well, which was not conveyed at all in the roundstart text.

As for the rest of the players, the round plays pretty much like extended, as the objectives of the overthrowers are to cause minimal damage, and they only have a precious few conversions they can do.
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Montyblancs
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby Montyblancs » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:02 pm #439337

Regarding playing as a converted AI, the syndicate lawset you get like when a borg is converted via emag may not be specific enough since there's multiple teams. I think the last time I was an AI in this mode, the second person that tried to convert me didn't drag me over to their team, but that still directly tells me that this person is a syndicate agent, and I have to obey/not harm them according to my laws. I don't know if that's intentional or not, but if not, it may be more helpful to replace "syndicate agent" with the team name instead.

I've also found myself in situations where all the other players on the team die, and the borgs are destroyed/don't exist. I can't convert people, even if I had borgs. This only leaves exiling which is basically impossible without borgs, or murder, which may be against the laws because someone else already converted one of them to a team without my knowledge. It's pretty much the same as someone uploading a bad "revolutionaries are not human" law, I have no idea who is who, but hurting them is a violation. "Minimal damage" is also just a suggestion from your objectives, not a law, so there's really nothing stopping an AI from just burning the entire station down if it's in this situation.

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zxaber
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby zxaber » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:28 am #439838

Yeah, my first round in this mode was as AI. After being yanked back and forth between two teams, I ended up just being purged and reset to asimov. But I still had the traitor symbol, and I was still a traitor. So I had objectives to kill/exile humans, but no means to do so. My borgs wern't traitors, so they basically ignored my requests to bring the targets to Lavaland.

I feel like the AI should just not be made into a traitor. Hacked laws, sure, make it subverted to the team. But don't make it part of the team.
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confused rock
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby confused rock » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:38 pm #441043

Why did this even get merged? all traitors have the exact same first 2 objectives, and its physically impossible for one team to complete the first objective successfully since they have two implants. Unless I'm missing something, the game doesn't track which team killed/exiled a head, so why even do it? every team will get the exact same number of points for it- and those points are never explained or tracked. This is just vague and leads to one team converting 2 valuable bois and then stealing the ai upload and waiting for the round to end. You can't even see your team name, but my team actually won with every one of its members except the ai dead.
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somerandomguy
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby somerandomguy » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:45 pm #441045

confused rock wrote:Why did this even get merged? all traitors have the exact same first 2 objectives, and its physically impossible for one team to complete the first objective successfully since they have two implants. Unless I'm missing something, the game doesn't track which team killed/exiled a head, so why even do it? every team will get the exact same number of points for it- and those points are never explained or tracked. This is just vague and leads to one team converting 2 valuable bois and then stealing the ai upload and waiting for the round to end. You can't even see your team name, but my team actually won with every one of its members except the ai dead.

The implants are multiuse

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confused rock
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby confused rock » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:51 pm #441046

somerandomguy wrote:
confused rock wrote:Why did this even get merged? all traitors have the exact same first 2 objectives, and its physically impossible for one team to complete the first objective successfully since they have two implants. Unless I'm missing something, the game doesn't track which team killed/exiled a head, so why even do it? every team will get the exact same number of points for it- and those points are never explained or tracked. This is just vague and leads to one team converting 2 valuable bois and then stealing the ai upload and waiting for the round to end. You can't even see your team name, but my team actually won with every one of its members except the ai dead.

The implants are multiuse

as in two uses. you already need a use for your third objective.
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Tlaltecuhtli
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:19 pm #441049

the gamemode feels like extended but its meta gangs

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teepeepee
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby teepeepee » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:36 am #442913

it's gangs but actually bad

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Yakumo_Chen
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby Yakumo_Chen » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:57 am #444466

Overthrow has Exile objectives when the shuttle does that at round end

also you can't un-antag the AI for whatever reason and that's EXTREMELY lame, not to mention you reset it once and it's immediately at it again and murderboning too.

Teams can still win despite every member being slaughtered and having objectives failed.

There's also no way to tell when you deconvert someone, if you even can.

The first thing I thought when I started playing this mode was "Wait, is this just revs but without an automatic round end" and that's really bad.
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Petnavi
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby Petnavi » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:17 am #444644

I just played an overthrow game where the AI got subverted and ended up murderboning most of the station, including syndicate agents because why bother letting the AI know who is or isn't an syndicate agent.

Overthrow as it is is a terrible mode and no one likes. Why? Because despite it being about trying to covertly accomplish goals it devolves into one team subverting the AI/Science and murderboning everyone because, guess what, even if the incentive is just .5 points it's STILL an incentive. The optimal way to win overthrow is to simply convert a head and the AI then murderbone everyone which goes against the entire sleeper agent stealth aspect of it. Killing someone should be a punishment for getting caught and should lose you .5 - 1 point per kill. We already have enough modes where the objective is to just kill and not enough where tactics and stealth are key.

I feel like overthrow should a group of syndicate agents, broken up into teams, trying to complete objectives against each other. They're on the same side but THEY want the credit for the objectives. This should be reflected by everyone having the traitor icon but instead of the red color it'll have a different color to reflect different teams. After all, the syndicate sent them there to overthrow the station, not kill each other. Non-lethally preventing the other team from accomplishing of goals should be encouraged instead. This information, icons of all the agents, should be known to the subverted AI and borgs as well so they don't violate their laws by murderboning other syndicate agents since their lawset has no clause to tell them who is or isn't a syndicate agent aside from, I assume, whoever initially converted them. Or maybe just don't bother with converting the AI with a special module because fuck silicons.

Overthrow should come in multiple stages. The first should be conversion a pool of non-head crewmembers that are worth extra points on top of whoever they want, though those would be worth less points. The initial sleeper agents should be focused first and foremost on converted as many people as they can as quickly as they can to beat other agents and the items they start with should be reflective of that - instead of a pistol or edagger maybe the camera bug, emp flashlight, thermal imaging glasses, AI detector, launchpad, radio jammer, or even the riot dart gun. Things that allow you to do things stealthily. The initial sleepers should be given a single freedom implant use as well since they're playing on the defense and shouldn't be killing people. If they want the same target then they should compete for it - Not by killing each other and letting everyone know something is up, but by throwing attention to the other team way, distracting them, or non-lethally detaining them. To further encourage these non-lethal means as time progresses the heads get a refill on their converting item. Maybe initially cap it at 2 conversion then every 10-20 minutes give it an extra charge. Maybe possibly allow the conversion of sleeper agents as well that aren't the head sleepers. See an agent trying to accomplish their team objectives? Steal him away and convert them to your team. Possibly have an item that allows a double agent of sorts - their icon appears as their initial team but are actually on someone else's. These double agents may get lynched if found out by their initial team but that'd be worth all the information they'd be given, right? Especially if a double agent could steal the converting item and give it to their true leader.

Stage two would commence for a team that has 3 or 4 agents. They would be given the task of infiltrating a non-sec department, which is its own objective, and converting the head of that department as a bonus objective worth extra points, if there is one. The teams with a head of staff should put extra care into defending them as having them converted to another team or mind-shielded by sec would spell disaster for them in addition to the loss of points for only partial completions. This encourages planning on which head to convert as if there's only one then all the teams should be focusing on that department for the extra points - unless they would rather focus on just infiltrating a non-head department to skip ahead to stage three.

Stage three would commence for a team that has successfully infiltrated a department - with or without conversion of a head. It is now time to begin the overthrowing of the station. The objective would now be twofold - to convert, exile, or kill all non-converted heads with no point loss for the killing of crew as there is no revolution, or overthrowing, without bloodshed. The second objective would be to hack into the bridge's comms with a special item available to all head sleepers - a special kind of emag. This emag would send a signal to the syndicate for back-up in either the form of armed personnel or weapons/armor for the sleeper agents. Possibly have each sleeper agent have a locked lethal weapon in their storage implant that unlocks once this has occurs. Once the signal is sent the crew is also notified of this, signalling the start of a crew vs sleeper agents during stage four. For clarification you do not need to kill/convert/exile all the heads to move onto stage four - it's just there for points. The real objective is the hacking.

Stage four would be to stomp down all resistance and to convert as many people as possible before the shuttle arrives - a 10 minute timer that cannot be recalled. The converting item should be recharging possibly every 30 seconds to 1 minute minute or even just never run out of charge at this phase to encourage detaining people who pose no threat instead of murdering them in cold blood. Murder would be worth .5 points and converting would be worth 1 point.

Once the shuttle docks it'll leave as normal, either with a squad of fresh syndicate agents or blood-soaked crew or a mix of both. .5 points for each member of a team that makes it out alive.

The winner of the mode is, naturally, whoever has the most amount of points. The mode is supposed to be easier to win the longer it goes on as more syndicate agents will be converted as time goes on. Mind-shield implants would be the counter along with the murder of a head sleeper agent which means do NOT let the head sleeper die if he has the converting tool on him.

There would be a balance of preparedness vs speed - The team that can blaze through all their objectives would have the most points but they would be less prepared for the final fight. This leaves them in a tricky situation as when they're the ones trying to get prepared another team could go into the bridge and hack the comm console.


Maybe my idea is complete shit and not even worth remotely considering but I feel overthrow as is should be unmerged as it's just a flat out worst version of revs as it always devolves into silicons breaking their laws and people murderboning along with agents just killing everyone.

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Lumbermancer
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby Lumbermancer » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:30 am #444686

The one time I played as the sleeper agent, I was a doctor. I converted two other medbay guys. I kinda didn't know what to do and stuff, but I managed to morphine some random lad and perform the brainwashing surgery. This was kinda fun, but the round ended few minutes later due to shuttle call cause of all the chaos and mayhem.

I like stealth and subterfuge, so I think it could be a fun mode with one team.
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Yakumo_Chen
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby Yakumo_Chen » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:32 am #444846

Petnavi wrote:I just played an overthrow game.

The problem is that this is still just revs but worse
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Cobby
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby Cobby » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:22 pm #444963

Seems like a hit and run gamemode because I’m not sure if the author has updated it or plans on updating it anymore, which is a shame because money is involved.
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Mickyan
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby Mickyan » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:42 pm #444992

I was suprised to see this got merged so quickly, it had some pretty obvious flaws and more subjectively I'd argue there's nothing particularly interesting about the gamemode

In fact it's only unique feature is very prone to metagaming as the same people always get targeted for conversion for being robust and will likely accept the free antag without really putting up a fight

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Grazyn
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby Grazyn » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:34 pm #445011

Cobby wrote:Seems like a hit and run gamemode because I’m not sure if the author has updated it or plans on updating it anymore, which is a shame because money is involved.

I think the author has been paid already since the only requirement was getting the mode merged. I doubt they would update or change it unless they get paid again to do it.

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confused rock
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby confused rock » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:31 pm #445026

Honestly the only reason I didn't outright make my entire claim be that this mode was a cash grab is because I really didn't think anyone would do all of this shit for 100 bucks. To me that was like if I climbed the empire state building because somebody left 100 bucks on the roof. Now, actually, this mode is a cash grab.
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Lumbermancer
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby Lumbermancer » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:42 pm #445036

People did worse things for less than that.
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Anuv
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby Anuv » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:24 pm #445293

I thought I disabled it so I ghosted and so did all the other mutineers and no one wants to take the ghost roles and even someone who got it via prayer was upset and the admins groaned when they saw the gamemode I think that all says enough about this
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Yakumo_Chen
 
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Re: Overthrow Gamemode Feedback

Unread postby Yakumo_Chen » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:44 pm #445306

Paid code was a mistake
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