[Nabski] Repukan - 9088161953

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[Nabski] Repukan - 9088161953

Unread postby D&B » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:05 am #441830

Byond account and character name: Repukan - Donatello Versus

Banning admin: Nabski

Ban type (What are you banned from?): Servers (Both Basil and Sybil)

Ban reason and length: Wordlessly killed the RD and a scientist for working on toxins. Made no attempt to subdue them non-lethally, or search them for possible cult influences. Hid the body of the RD in a locker after. Upon the RD\'s cloning they sent them to the perma as they didn\'t have holy water to test for possible cult influence. You are the opposite of fun for almost every player you come in contact with. This happened during round 94412

Time ban was placed (including time zone: 2018-09-25 03:39:40, n
Your side of the story: Round starts and I get stuck being a warden with no security personnel. There's a detective but he either doesn't know how to speak in the channel, or is just AFK. Whatever, I just stay in the brig and watch cameras. Not less than 7 minutes into the round, Captain starts giving out all access for no good reason whatsoever. Apparently they just asked for it and that's compelling enough. Whatever. Detective doesn't appear on vitals so I assume that effectively I'm the last person in security. Which I am at this point.

AI then announces that a cult has built archives in the Cold Room of the Chef. I see the chef dead in the vitals console, and check it with my cameras. This was announced in common, so everyone knew.

Spoiler:
[2018-09-25 02:47:54.079] SAY: 02:47:54.079] SAY: Anonmare/(The Machine) "they have built an archive in the cold room" (AI Chamber (150, 32, 2)) - https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... /game.html


I check our manifest and there's no chaplain to bless water. I ask cargo for religious supplies and they refuse to order it, and I don't have enough manpower to force them to buy it. One of the people that had received all access from the captain comes into the brig looking for implants, but since I had no water to deconvert them, I turn them away. They run into my office, and this being box there's only a glass door preventing him from grabbing a weapon, I tase and kill them, since I have
A)No personnel to watch over them
B)No way to ensure their compliance
C)No way of knowing they weren't a cultist.

I secure the armory, and scream at the captain to at least declare an emergency. I ask the AI if there's any looming threats, and also if someone is making bombs. Do note that by this point everyone was aware there was a cult on board, and even the CMO made efforts to protect themselves with stuff from the brig without a chance of me arming them or implanting them due to a lack of holy water. AI informs me that yes, there's two people working on bombs in R&D, and I check over my camera and see the RD (Who had made no efforts to communicate the purpose of said bombs) and some lizard in a suit. Since I couldn't see the lizard's position (didn't show in my cameras) and they were dressed as an assistant, I moved swiftly to science to prevent bombs from being built and used by the cult.

At this point in time the only things I know are:
A)Captain is non reliable
B)I can't really trust anyone or implant anyone since the cult status won't be wiped that way, cargo isn't cooperating and there's no way to produce holy water
C)They could have or have not already completed bombs
D)I don't have anyone to help me take these two back without them attacking me or getting jumped in the process

I proceed to breach the room and kill both of them before putting them on a locker for easier transportation. During this, another lizard with all access appears and wordlessly takes away the lizard that was working in toxins (with no help messages being said by anyone, or any kind of alarm that they both have died.) I try to chase them, give up, and go back to bunkering down in the brig since I can't feasibly recover both bodies and remain alive in the attempt. Someone (I don't know who) declares red alert and I prepare myself to evacuate before the captain brings a single flask of holy water (which he wasted on a lizard that ran off soon after being proven non cultist and implanted.) RD enters the brig, I tase them, and somewhere in the last three minutes someone called the shuttle, and while I'm busy securing the RD in the brig (of which I would take them out when the shuttle landed) the shuttle lands on station. Since they were already uncuffed and able to walk, I left the door open and told them to follow me (they apparently didn't, even though my hardsuit slowdown would have given them the speed advantage to catch up with me.) As I get on the shuttle I confirm early departure with another moth with all access, but fail to launch it early and it departs on its normal time. I see some cultists breaking mayhem in the main shuttle area and start shooting at those that are picking up cultist weapons when Nabski pings me.

Why you think you should be unbanned:

It's been accepted before that the discovery of a cult or other dangers can disrupt the flow of work in the station. It was not a secret there was a cult on station, nor there was any attempt to hide it by security personnel, AI, or any other forces. No attempt was made to reach out to security to inform the making of bombs during this situation, and not enough personnel was present to take them in OR hold them for deconvertion. Not even an attempt to arm themselves for protection was made, which the CMO understandably did after being let in the brig (They were allowed to take stuff from the sec lockers to protect themselves, since I couldn't ascertain their status but had made efforts to isolate themselves from what I could see.)

Furthermore I couldn't risk myself to a tase and search because:

A)There were people with all access running around (such as the lizard that almost upon me descending in toxins, had immediately arrived with preternatural knowledge of a lizard dying to drag them off to cloning.)
B)No feasible backup would arrive if in the middle of searching both I got attacked
C)Cult has innate powers that cannot be searched OR detected unless a forceful deconversion is made (which I couldn't do because, surprise surprise, no chaplain.)

Doesn't matter how important bombs are for research, if you make no good faith effort to report that you're at least protecting yourself and that your work area is secured, how can I know that you won't blow up the station with them? I have no way of confirming this, so I have to take the most effective measures to ensure the less people die and are able to evacuate.
Last edited by D&B on Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.



PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:37 am.
Reason: Don't make me figure out how to juice a prune

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Re: [Nabski] Repukan - 9088161953

Unread postby Arianya » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:07 am #441841

This ban was placed 2018-09-25 03:39:40, not the date you've listed.
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Re: [Nabski] Repukan - 9088161953

Unread postby D&B » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:55 pm #441851

Yeah I realized and corrected it

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Re: [Nabski] Repukan - 9088161953

Unread postby Nabski » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:23 pm #441858

I appreciate that you've made an effort to write out what all your chain of logic was in this situation.

If you want to kill people without talking to them, go play on a team deathmatch server.

Cult having unsearchable powers was a shitty change, but there are still hints about if they have activated the power or not. Things like blood drips or arm damage are a really good thing to look out for.

If you quote the logs please try to include a link to them.

This is denied, you haven't told me anything I did not already know during the original ban. Killing people for doing their job is shitty.

My personal favorite bit of this round that was left out is that on the shuttle you were attacked by cultists. You managed to kill one person quickly before the fight continued. That one person was also not a cultist. This, like the random guy with all access, was a valid kill.
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PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:40 pm.
Reason: Initially I was gonna allow this post but on balance it's more opinion then substance. Sorry!

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Re: [Nabski] Repukan - 9088161953

Unread postby D&B » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:17 pm #441865

And that one guy had been picking up and dragging cult stuff, hence why I both

A)shot them
B)assumed they were a cultist.

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Re: [Nabski] Repukan - 9088161953

Unread postby Arianya » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:59 pm #441870

I'm not exactly thrilled about the precedent you're trying to set. First of all, to get something out of the way quickly:
[2018-09-25 03:19:56.273] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Repukan/(Donatello Versus)->Nabski/(Gene Ball): that's the other lizard that was in Toxins right? We saw them making bombs with the RD and they were a non human so due to not having a chaplain to attempt deconversion or testing I just rolled the dice with them

Source: https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/ ... 2/game.log (non-accessible to non-admins)

I want to make it perfectly clear to you that within the framing of the rules, there is no distinction made about what roundstart race a player is playing. You can roleplay about hating lizards or whatever, I don't care, but it doesn't mean you can decide to "roll the dice" on murdering people on the odds that they might be cult specifically because they're playing a lizard. As you make ostentatious note of here for no clear reason actually relating to your appeal:

such as the lizard that almost upon me descending in toxins, had immediately arrived with preternatural knowledge of a lizard dying to drag them off to cloning.


I know you think that everyone playing a lizard/non-human is a metacomming secret cheater who you're just trying to level the playing field with but if you can't shake this attitude you're going to end up right back in a perma ban.

That said, on to the actual meat of the appeal:

I'm not at all satisfied that you use lack of communication as a reason to lynch two people, when so far as I can see you made no effort to communicate the other way that you didn't want bombs being made. The first time you mention toxins is at all is as you ask the AI to help you storm it by opening doors for you.

We have a lot of departments that can make dangerous things, including robotics across the hall who can make combat mechs, chemists who can make hellfoam, botanists that can make explosive tomatos, etc. etc. While some of these are more reasonable then others, I'm not at all content with the idea that a department doing what it would normally do makes itself valid to be murdered by you when you don't put in even an iota of effort to try and get them to not do the thing.

Your excuse of no holy water seems like just that, an excuse. Even giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you were unaware that botany can make holymelons, you for some reason dismiss cargo as entirely unassailable to you when they're the main source of two extremely important materials you need to win the round, implants and holy water. The one department that actually disobeyed an order you gave, has something you need that's important, and which generally speaking is just as susceptible to flashbang raiding as toxins. Could you explain why you felt that other departments were so assailable that you'd march in solo, but cargo was entirely beyond your control?

You also note that the lack of holy water means that you were entirely incapable of giving people implants. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt again and point out that we specifically have two tells attached to cult now, the first being red eyes at 20% of the active player population being cult (observable even through masks/face coverings via examine), and the second being an extremely obvious, unhideable blood halo at 40% of the same. This alone would have meant that you had more to gain then lose by using your implants to try and secure crew against easy conversion, and while being careful with your limited implants is reasonable, refusing to use them wholesale in the absence of holy water doesn't strike me as sensible.

And that one guy had been picking up and dragging cult stuff
and for a third instance of giving you the benefit of the doubt, anyone can pick up and drag cult stuff without ill effect. It's only the use of it which now causes dizzyness/backlash.

Overall I can't see any reason to over-rule Nabski on this ban, as his ban reason and length seems entirely reasonable given the situation.
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Re: [Nabski] Repukan - 9088161953

Unread postby D&B » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:19 pm #441903

If and when dealing with dangerous individuals and an Asimov AI, there's been precedent for non-humans not being worth keeping alive as much. Meaning that in the order of things and priority, they're expendable enough for silicon's that they can be relieved to be an useful expense if the need arises.

You mention mechs, hellfoam and plants. These are all counterable if I can see them (Mechs having a huge delay between attacks) or tase them. Bombs have no counterplay, unless you quickly activate an immortality talisman with a hardsuit on as soon as it's activated .

The reason I highlighted another lizard coming to drag off the lizard body was because at the time it seemed to me that someone with the bloodcult ghost told them one of their cultists had died and they descended quickly as soon as they dropped.

I'm aware of botany being able to make holymelons, but those take time, even more so with the plan manipulator change. I can't stay around and ask the botanists to do them and get lynched, I can't stay and defend them or the cultists could break into sec and raid it with their all access. The most I could do was wait for the shuttle and prepare for the last stand that could come, which did happen in the shuttle.

In aware there's penalties for non cultists in using cult implements, seeing this guy walking normally without dizziness of any kind after grabbing the sword gave me the assumption they could have been a cultist

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Re: [Nabski] Repukan - 9088161953

Unread postby D&B » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:21 pm #441904

Also we can't fairly compare cargo with 3 miners with artifacts, 2 cargo techs and 1 QM in a large area of movement to 1 RD and 1 Lizard dressed as assistant in an enclosed, easy to control space. That's just dumb

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Re: [Nabski] Repukan - 9088161953

Unread postby D&B » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:38 pm #441919

Logs Link added to the spoiler

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Re: [Nabski] Repukan - 9088161953

Unread postby Arianya » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:08 pm #442097

D&B wrote:If and when dealing with dangerous individuals and an Asimov AI, there's been precedent for non-humans not being worth keeping alive as much. Meaning that in the order of things and priority, they're expendable enough for silicon's that they can be relieved to be an useful expense if the need arises.


I have no idea why you're citing silicon policy to justify your actions as a human head of staff. This still doesn't supercede escalation policy or security policy.

You mention mechs, hellfoam and plants. These are all counterable if I can see them (Mechs having a huge delay between attacks) or tase them. Bombs have no counterplay, unless you quickly activate an immortality talisman with a hardsuit on as soon as it's activated .


While I'll concede that the mentioned things have more counters, that wasn't my point in citing them. Every department has dangerous things they could make which security probably would rather they didn't during cult/rev, but you can't just jump to execution because they did so when you never expressed any request to anyone that they not do so, when those things are a natural extension of what their department makes.

The reason I highlighted another lizard coming to drag off the lizard body was because at the time it seemed to me that someone with the bloodcult ghost told them one of their cultists had died and they descended quickly as soon as they dropped.


This is largely unprovable and is hindsight justification since it only occurred after the kills you received the ban for (and so doesn't justify why you chose to jump to field shotgun executions).

I'm aware of botany being able to make holymelons, but those take time, even more so with the plan manipulator change. I can't stay around and ask the botanists to do them and get lynched, I can't stay and defend them or the cultists could break into sec and raid it with their all access. The most I could do was wait for the shuttle and prepare for the last stand that could come, which did happen in the shuttle.

In aware there's penalties for non cultists in using cult implements, seeing this guy walking normally without dizziness of any kind after grabbing the sword gave me the assumption they could have been a cultist


I really disagree with your playstyle, since it seems like you're more focused on ensuring your own capability to fight then taking a risk that might help your side, but ultimately you weren't banned for your playstyle in this instance, but rather for the unjustified kills.

In that regard, I don't find anything you've said to have swayed my opinion. You simply can't walk into a department and shotgun two people to death on the presumption of guilt, even during cult (and especially not when we have exciting new hard tells for people being in the cult).

Regardless, this ban has expired and my opinion on the note remains accurate, so I'm considering this resolved, though any other headmin may feel free to post.
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