Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

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Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby jackrip » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:24 am #445806

The particle acceleration rifle is one of the most frustrating tools to fight against when you are the blob, and you really can't do anything against a crew with them. It is incredibly overpowered and ONLY useful when fighting blobs. Once a crew has them the blob round is over. I have NEVER seen a crew lose who use them.

Remove these stupid overpowered blob killers



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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Deitus » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:45 am #445807

They replaced x-rays as a win condition, and otherwise blobs can and will get out of hand quickly. Win the arms race or die.
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby jackrip » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:45 am #445830

So the only way to win the 'arms race' is by building your blob in science. otherwise there is literally nothing you can do. These guns force a very specific blob strategy and makes it so any new players will have no chance of getting close.

I find it insane that anyone can consider these balanced

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby iamgoofball » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:16 am #445846

i'll throw up a PR that disables them when the blob announcement goes live

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Bawhoppennn » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:56 am #445863

iamgoofball wrote:i'll throw up a PR that disables them when the blob announcement goes live


That seems like an arbitrary and un-interesting way to do that, even from a gameplay perspective.
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby iamgoofball » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:42 am #445875

Bawhoppennn wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:i'll throw up a PR that disables them when the blob announcement goes live


That seems like an arbitrary and un-interesting way to do that, even from a gameplay perspective.

it's that or remove them/make them worthless against blobs

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Lumbermancer » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:00 am #445877

It's as if blobs were not fun to play against.
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Anuv » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:02 am #445878

The problem is blobs always come lategame lately and by that point all the tech is done/there are +30k points hanging around and there are a ton of minerals in the lathe. Also yeah I have literally never ever seen them used for anything but a blob. Which is weird.
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby iamgoofball » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:13 am #445881

Anuv wrote:The problem is blobs always come lategame lately and by that point all the tech is done/there are +30k points hanging around and there are a ton of minerals in the lathe. Also yeah I have literally never ever seen them used for anything but a blob. Which is weird.

It's almost like someone added it to be clever and get around the fact we removed xrays killing blobs or something.

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:23 am #445913

the main problem is that any AoE kills bleb so it was xray now particle rifles
other aoe like plasma fires and bombs arent considered "op" against blob because they are slighty less optimal (plasma fires means u ll need enviroment prot((after some stages where the blob is gonna make a hole to space its needed anyway)), bombs means greg mc tider didnt read chat when u said "bombing blob" ((tbh who cares about greg mc tider, darwinism n shit)) )
in other words its not gonna fix the problem just move it around
what we need instead is something blob can do against aoe

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby somerandomguy » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:15 pm #445986

Just lower AoE and increase damage from the beam itself, so it can be used on humans like the energy sniper that it is

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby kevinz000 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:29 pm #446139

iamgoofball wrote:
Anuv wrote:The problem is blobs always come lategame lately and by that point all the tech is done/there are +30k points hanging around and there are a ton of minerals in the lathe. Also yeah I have literally never ever seen them used for anything but a blob. Which is weird.

It's almost like someone added it to be clever and get around the fact we removed xrays killing blobs or something.

No I didn't add them to kill blobs, they're meant for damaging structures and long range mob combat.
Blobs double damage being op is an oversight that was nerfed when it was blanket nerfed with the cooldown nerf
PR up in a few minutes to nerf vs blobs.

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Cobby » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:18 pm #446220

The actual fix is to just make the event not happen so late in the game that it's a small delay in roundend at best and a serious hamper to ending the round at worst.

If it's not beam rifles it's the AEGs with Boss-tier loot, you're simply not going to win against a crew that's vastly alive with most of the normal content explored.

I also think their win rate should be not in their favor since their winning denies nearly every other antag the ability to win.
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:51 pm #446225

Blob doesn't need fucking buffs. It's a side antag for godsake not a fucking roundstart antag anymore.

Also Cobby is right. The real antags matter more than some fucking side antag. We don't have revenants, morphs, and swarmers that can pre-maturely end the round.

edit: by pre-maturely, I mean they can end the round on their own. Only Blob can end the round without the shuttle/admin intervention.

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby somerandomguy » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:01 am #446262

Ayy Lemoh wrote:Blob doesn't need fucking buffs. It's a side antag for godsake not a fucking roundstart antag anymore.

Also Cobby is right. The real antags matter more than some fucking side antag. We don't have revenants, morphs, and swarmers that can pre-maturely end the round.

edit: by pre-maturely, I mean they can end the round on their own. Only Blob can end the round without the shuttle/admin intervention.

>implying swarmers aren't a round-ender

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby jackrip » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:06 am #446263

Removing this will give blob the fighting chance it deserves, its hard ENOUGH without those particle acceleration rifles. Swarmers can definitely be a round ender. I agree that blob should be roundstart again or at least at the 30 minute mark. But particle acceleration rifles need to go no matter what. They should NOT be "nerfed in aoe and increased in damage" unless they also get a speed decrease. The problem is that EVERYONE will have them and it will tear you to shreds in moments

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:33 am #446292

about 90% of the time I see blobs I don't see a single PA rifle so I don't see the problem here. Git gud.
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby leibniz » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:12 pm #446330

Yakumo_Chen wrote:about 90% of the time I see blobs I don't see a single PA rifle so I don't see the problem here. Git gud.


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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:40 pm #446384

Blobs as a side antag should melt when the station is focused on it. Blobs exist now as a giant monkey wrench into an existing antag vs station fight. Usually the only time I see blobs win is when the antags went full bore and murdered the station too hard, and that should really be the only way they should consistently win now.

They arent a roundstart antag that the entire round is built around anymore, having a powerful weapon against them exist is not as big of an issue. especially when people typically wont even have it researched when the blob is called.

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:14 pm #446419

Dr_bee wrote:Blobs as a side antag should melt when the station is focused on it. Blobs exist now as a giant monkey wrench into an existing antag vs station fight. Usually the only time I see blobs win is when the antags went full bore and murdered the station too hard, and that should really be the only way they should consistently win now.

They arent a roundstart antag that the entire round is built around anymore, having a powerful weapon against them exist is not as big of an issue. especially when people typically wont even have it researched when the blob is called.

They should melt however some blob chems are really powerful and make it really hard to kill, though. That may be fine on highpop however blob can appear on station if there's only 20 guys or something like that.

If this guy is making this post because of a sybil round then let me give an example of what we had
- Two traitors who were good guys
- Numerous cyborgs
- 23 or more crewmembers out of 50
equipped with
- one Particle Acceleration Rifle
- one captain laser
- one or two energy swords
- normal weaponry
The blob had numerous blobbernauts and you could die from being too cold if you were hit by the blob while in a space suit. I feel like it was luck that we even started winning and not because we had a particle acceleration rifle with energy swords.

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby wesoda25 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:11 am #446545

Why nerf? Blobbernauts, blob zombies, and blob spores are all decent counters to PA Rifles, in order of strength. Honestly what makes or breaks a blob (with heavy opposition from crew) is its blobbernauts, which can easily fuck the crew over.

Its why so many blobs spawn near vault, trying to take out ore silo asap. Yeah, sometimes a blob will lose if the crew has every tool to destroy it in their grasp. Thats lfe, existence of blob is to force shuttle call or end round.

Besides plasma cutters were nerfed, meaning PA Rifles as they are exist as the hardest counter.
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby confused rock » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:20 pm #446893

Particle accelerators are useless for anything that aint a blob thanks to the piss obvious laser
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby kevinz000 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:26 am #446926

confused rock wrote:Particle accelerators are useless for anything that aint a blob thanks to the piss obvious laser

maybe if people learned to long range with it instead of trying to use it in short range where it's designed to suck.

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby confused rock » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:53 am #446982

kevinz000 wrote:
confused rock wrote:Particle accelerators are useless for anything that aint a blob thanks to the piss obvious laser

maybe if people learned to long range with it instead of trying to use it in short range where it's designed to suck.

in long range people see laser and fucking sidestep dumbo
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:55 am #446983

There's no point to long range when by the time you charge the rifle the person you were aiming for can be half way across the station.
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Dr_bee » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:12 am #447043

Steelpoint wrote:There's no point to long range when by the time you charge the rifle the person you were aiming for can be half way across the station.


Point is to attack stationary targets.

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Cobby » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:21 am #447048

kevinz000 wrote:
confused rock wrote:Particle accelerators are useless for anything that aint a blob thanks to the piss obvious laser

maybe if people learned to long range with it instead of trying to use it in short range where it's designed to suck.


zoom is insufferable tho
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Incomptinence » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:13 am #447069

There is a niche for beyond sight ranged attacks which is why paprika got extremely salty and limited taser bolts to sight range so people could not snag a quick peep of him then retreat beyond his screen and shoot his slovenly ass. It's exactly that though really niche like you spend a lot of time standing still in a hallway it becomes a problem so I dunno bane of some chemistry ordering windows.

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby WarbossLincoln » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:54 pm #447299

Dr_bee wrote:Point is to attack stationary targets.


>Stationary Target - See Blob

>Blob - See Thread.

Aside from someone who has a UI up like a computer or pda who is standing still long enough to get blasted by this thing at long range. Who else is distracted enough to not see the big ass, color-changing laser coming from off screen? If they're distracted enough to not notice a charging particle accelerator then any stun weapon would be easier to use and more accessible. Blob is basically the only thing it's useful against.
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Dr_bee » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:38 pm #447383

WarbossLincoln wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Point is to attack stationary targets.


>Stationary Target - See Blob

>Blob - See Thread.

Aside from someone who has a UI up like a computer or pda who is standing still long enough to get blasted by this thing at long range. Who else is distracted enough to not see the big ass, color-changing laser coming from off screen? If they're distracted enough to not notice a charging particle accelerator then any stun weapon would be easier to use and more accessible. Blob is basically the only thing it's useful against.


It works pretty good against basic walls and windows, as well as area denial, or against robustin turrets back when they were a thing. Werent they added around the same time as robustin turrets?

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby wesoda25 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:58 pm #447411

PA Rifles aren’t meant for hand to hand combat. It excels at killing blobs (but I bet you plebs have never tried bombarding an escape shuttle with one either).
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby kevinz000 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:31 pm #447585

confused rock wrote:
kevinz000 wrote:
confused rock wrote:Particle accelerators are useless for anything that aint a blob thanks to the piss obvious laser

maybe if people learned to long range with it instead of trying to use it in short range where it's designed to suck.

in long range people see laser and fucking sidestep dumbo

The angle delay penalty is lower the longer range you're in it works fine enough just flick them it'll work if they're like 2-3 screens away

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby confused rock » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:30 pm #448249

kevinz000 wrote:
confused rock wrote:
kevinz000 wrote:
confused rock wrote:Particle accelerators are useless for anything that aint a blob thanks to the piss obvious laser

maybe if people learned to long range with it instead of trying to use it in short range where it's designed to suck.

in long range people see laser and fucking sidestep dumbo

The angle delay penalty is lower the longer range you're in it works fine enough just flick them it'll work if they're like 2-3 screens away

What happened to accelerator lasers (unironically)
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby wesoda25 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:41 pm #448264

Still a wizard spawn. Also you can harvest them from the Xeno butcher space ruin if you have carp or something.
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby oranges » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:03 pm #449087

give the blob a ranged weapon and this goes away btw

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Screemonster » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:00 am #449125

oranges wrote:give the blob a ranged weapon and this goes away btw

for some reason the first thing to come to mind was the creep colonies from starcraft that you could upgrade to shoot spores

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Dr_bee » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:07 pm #449222

Goon blob has reflector tiles specifically to stop laser fire but are vulnerable to brute and fire. If you want to give blobs a way to fight long range shit that isnt blobbernaughts thats the direction that might work.

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby delaron » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:43 pm #449232

Dr_bee wrote:Goon blob has reflector tiles specifically to stop laser fire but are vulnerable to brute and fire. If you want to give blobs a way to fight long range shit that isnt blobbernaughts thats the direction that might work.



This seems promising. Maybe give the reinforced blob wall another upgrade that reflects a damage type projectile. Reflective for energy based weapons, Curved for physical ballistics. You get one or the other for a tile.
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby oranges » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:28 am #450083

sounds good to me

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Deitus » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:45 am #450109

quoted from the last post in the SAW thread before it was locked:

oranges wrote:Losing is part of the game.
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.


this is literally no different. if you dont expand fast enough or destroy RnD, you lose, tough shit. why is this nerf/removal even being discussed?
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby leibniz » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:46 pm #450144

Deitus wrote:quoted from the last post in the SAW thread before it was locked:

oranges wrote:Losing is part of the game.
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.


this is literally no different. if you dont expand fast enough or destroy RnD, you lose, tough shit. why is this nerf/removal even being discussed?


This applies just to the same to people losing to the blob..
That rule is there to stop people ahelping about how they are mad, but it's not really relevant to balance discussions.
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Deitus » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:36 pm #450206

>not relevant to balance discussion
>was used to end a balance discussion

not quite, fam. its the same deal. get good or die.
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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:11 am #450307

Deitus wrote:>not relevant to balance discussion
>was used to end a balance discussion

not quite, fam. its the same deal. get good or die.


Apples and oranges. In that case it was about people running right into a fucking L6 and getting pissy when they die. This is a case where a stationary antag is faced with a weapon they have only 1 real counter against and even then it isnt really a counter.

1 is ided, the other is a legitimate balance problem.

Giving blob an option to block lasers on a square for a cost to defend against shit the otherwise cant counter is a good idea to add. as it prevents people soloing blobs with PA rifles or emitter platforms.

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:14 am #450323

Dr_bee wrote:Giving blob an option to block lasers on a square for a cost todefend against shit the otherwise cant counter is a good idea to add. as it prevents people soloing blobs with PA rifles or emitter platforms.

In what fucking world does the emitter actually solo the blob? The blob can get a juggernaut that regenerates health when it's inside blob tiles, relocate his core, or make a horde of simplemobs go over there. This doesn't even include the fact that the blob can just make more blob tiles to smash it.

The blob does not need fucking buffs. Even if highpop can easily deal with it then that's good because the blob is not a fucking main antag anymore. Lowpop servers can still fight blobs, though. It is really fucking hard to fight a blob if you have only ten out of thirty people who feel like they could have a fighting chance against the blob. If PA rifles are removed and blobs can just create tiles to block lasers then what exactly can the crew do? Some blobs make meleeing a completely suicidal act that will get you killed because of temperature damage/toxin damage/etc.

A reflective blob MAY be neat if it only reflects lasers and does normal brute damage. No one wants to fight a fucking overpowered piece of shit that can counter most of the station's weaponry while being able to inject you with cold toxins through any sort of armor you have.

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Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby somerandomguy » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:40 pm #450418

Ayy Lemoh wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Giving blob an option to block lasers on a square for a cost todefend against shit the otherwise cant counter is a good idea to add. as it prevents people soloing blobs with PA rifles or emitter platforms.

In what fucking world does the emitter actually solo the blob? The blob can get a juggernaut that regenerates health when it's inside blob tiles, relocate his core, or make a horde of simplemobs go over there. This doesn't even include the fact that the blob can just make more blob tiles to smash it.

The blob does not need fucking buffs. Even if highpop can easily deal with it then that's good because the blob is not a fucking main antag anymore. Lowpop servers can still fight blobs, though. It is really fucking hard to fight a blob if you have only ten out of thirty people who feel like they could have a fighting chance against the blob. If PA rifles are removed and blobs can just create tiles to block lasers then what exactly can the crew do? Some blobs make meleeing a completely suicidal act that will get you killed because of temperature damage/toxin damage/etc.

A reflective blob MAY be neat if it only reflects lasers and does normal brute damage. No one wants to fight a fucking overpowered piece of shit that can counter most of the station's weaponry while being able to inject you with cold toxins through any sort of armor you have.

Long-range emitter barrage is the best blob counter
Too far from the blob for it to expand at it or safely sent a 'naut
Just point the emitters at the core and watch it die

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Deitus
 
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:26 pm
Byond Username: Deitus

Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Deitus » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:22 pm #450490

Dr_bee wrote:
Deitus wrote:>not relevant to balance discussion
>was used to end a balance discussion

not quite, fam. its the same deal. get good or die.


Apples and oranges. In that case it was about people running right into a fucking L6 and getting pissy when they die. This is a case where a stationary antag is faced with a weapon they have only 1 real counter against and even then it isnt really a counter.

1 is ided, the other is a legitimate balance problem.

Giving blob an option to block lasers on a square for a cost to defend against shit the otherwise cant counter is a good idea to add. as it prevents people soloing blobs with PA rifles or emitter platforms.


i've outlined why the whole "just dont run at the machine gun bruh xD" argument is a load of crap multiple times before so im not even going to bother humoring this as a valid counterargument, but you seem to be under the impression that blobs 1) cant relocate their core 2) send a blobbernaut after them or 3) destroy the ore silo and/or rnd.

blobs tend to happen mid-shift where very often people are busy fighting the central round antags or are at very low numbers from doing so; the PAR allows them to get back on an even standing point instead of ineffectually whacking it with welders. you guys keep making it seem like the moment a PAR shows up the blob has lost, but there are plenty of times when the blob wins regardless.

it seriously boggles my mind why this is being taken seriously. blob has plenty of tools or strategies to use against the PAR and if you dont know about them or dont use them, tough titties, you lost, get good. i swear this is like the debate that got secborgs removed, one guy whines about something completely avoidable and circlejerks it hard enough until it gets removed. its frankly kind of sad how history repeats itself like this.
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Yakumo_Chen
 
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:08 pm
Byond Username: Yakumo Chen

Re: Remove 'Particle Acceleration Rifles'

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:46 am #451146

Just eat the ore silo, it's an instant win as blob

thank goof for this wonderful advice
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