[ausops] Brian Hyde - "failed probation terms" re-permban

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BrianHyde
 
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:13 am

[ausops] Brian Hyde - "failed probation terms" re-permban

Unread postby BrianHyde » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:56 pm #450182

Byond account and character name: brianhyde/Brian Hyde
Banning admin: ausops
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Permanent game ban
Ban reason and length:
Image
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2018-05-24 16:40:24 server time
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story:

I was given a reprieve on my permanent ban (which occurred 6 months prior), back in May of this year by CitrusGender and Armhulenn. I was put on a 3-month probation, the terms of which were:
2018-05-13 03:45:43 | Bagil | citrusgender wrote: wrote:On probation for three months, any bad escalation will be dealt with harshly. Any unjustified murders may result in a permaban.

2018-05-13 03:44:38 | Bagil | citrusgender wrote: wrote:Hi, as a part of your unbanning is a 3 month probation: rule 7 will be in effect for everything that you do.

The round in question that triggered ausops to re-apply my permanent ban (round #88417 on 5/24/2018 on Sybil) was one where I tried stun-cuffing an engineer that was walking around with the captain's spare ID, which resulted in 3(?) other random people ganging up on me. I didn't expect them to all go right after me, and the AI was even getting involved to try to detain me as I attempted to get away from them. After a short chase, this eventually led to me getting stunned by Beepsky and being taken to the brig where said engineer proceeded to try to kill me, while I was cuffed in a cell, by shooting at me with a laser gun from the outside.

[2018-05-24 16:03:47.590] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (135,165,2)
[2018-05-24 16:03:47.591] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (135,164,2)
[2018-05-24 16:03:48.086] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (135,165,2)
[2018-05-24 16:03:48.087] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (135,164,2)
[2018-05-24 16:03:48.582] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (135,165,2)
[2018-05-24 16:03:48.583] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (135,164,2)
[2018-05-24 16:03:49.117] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (135,165,2)
-SNIP-
[2018-05-24 16:03:55.794] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) stripped the welding goggles off Brian Hyde(brianhyde) (NEWHP: 100) (136,165,2)
[2018-05-24 16:03:57.443] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) stripped the insulated gloves off Brian Hyde(brianhyde) (NEWHP: 100) (136,165,2)
[2018-05-24 16:03:58.293] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) stripped the radio headset off Brian Hyde(brianhyde) (NEWHP: 100) (136,165,2)
[2018-05-24 16:03:58.994] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) stripped the black shoes off Brian Hyde(brianhyde) (NEWHP: 100) (136,165,2)
[2018-05-24 16:03:59.895] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) stripped the grey jumpsuit off Brian Hyde(brianhyde) (NEWHP: 100) (136,165,2)
[2018-05-24 16:04:01.620] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (136,164,2)
[2018-05-24 16:04:01.621] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (136,165,2)
-SNIP-
[2018-05-24 16:04:08.348] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) stripped the leather satchel off Brian Hyde(brianhyde) (NEWHP: 100) (136,163,2)
[2018-05-24 16:04:09.119] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (136,161,2)
[2018-05-24 16:04:09.121] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (136,163,2)
[2018-05-24 16:04:09.610] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (136,161,2)
-SNIP-
[2018-05-24 16:04:21.263] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (136,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:04:21.266] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (138,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:04:21.814] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (135,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:04:24.950] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) grabbed Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with passive grab (NEWHP: 100) (138,166,2)
-SNIP-
[2018-05-24 16:04:34.570] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at reinforced table with The disabler beam from Brig (134,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:04:35.168] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (140,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:04:35.252] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (138,166,2)
-SNIP-
[2018-05-24 16:04:37.844] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (140,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:04:37.938] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (138,166,2)
-SNIP-
[2018-05-24 16:05:59.990] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at �Brig vent pump #6 with The disabler beam from Brig (139,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:06:00.086] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (138,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:06:00.770] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at �Brig vent pump #6 with The disabler beam from Brig (139,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:06:00.835] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (138,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:06:01.217] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (139,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:06:01.296] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (138,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:06:01.610] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (139,166,2)
-SNIP-
[2018-05-24 16:06:30.567] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (138,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:06:30.662] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (138,166,2)
-SNIP-
[2018-05-24 16:11:05.232] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (142,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:11:05.400] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (140,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:11:06.122] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Brig (142,166,2)
-SNIP-
[2018-05-24 16:11:23.117] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam from Brig (NEWHP: 100) (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:11:23.118] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:11:23.619] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam from Brig (NEWHP: 100) (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:11:23.620] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:11:24.140] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam from Brig (NEWHP: 100) (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:11:24.142] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:11:24.512] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam from Brig (NEWHP: 100) (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:11:24.513] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (140,167,2)
-SNIP-
[2018-05-24 16:13:19.241] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at security camera with The laser from Brig (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:13:19.380] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The laser (NEWHP: 80) (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:13:20.840] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at security camera with The laser from Brig (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:13:21.246] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at security camera with The laser from Brig (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:13:21.720] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at security camera with The laser from Brig (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:13:23.040] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at security camera with The laser from Brig (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:13:23.724] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at security camera with The laser from Brig (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:13:23.831] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The laser (NEWHP: 60) (140,167,2)
-SNIP-
[2018-05-24 16:13:46.237] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The laser from Brig (140,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:13:46.238] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The laser (NEWHP: 40) (138,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:13:46.808] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The laser from Brig (140,166,2)
[2018-05-24 16:13:47.786] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) fired at floor with The laser from Brig (140,167,2)
[2018-05-24 16:13:47.891] ATTACK: Kurt Kavinsky(quartofel) shot Brian Hyde(brianhyde) with The laser (NEWHP: 20) (140,167,2)

(I removed parts that had nothing to do with the situation, please verify by checking the log if you will)

After he started to try to kill me, I ahelped this not because I got caught, but because it seemed totally unnecessary for him to be doing this to me while I was effectively nullified as a threat, locked up and bound in a brig cell, with the AI helping him to keep me detained.

[2018-05-24 16:25:26.970] SAY: 16:25:26.970] SAY: Brian Hyde/BrianHyde : dude i am going to report you to centcomm if you think this is fine (140,167,2)
-SNIP-
[2018-05-24 16:25:33.778] SAY: 16:25:33.778] SAY: Kurt Kavinsky/Quartofel : Go for it (142,167,2)


The admin that was on at the time, SpaceInaba, accused me of ahelping "because I got dunked" but totally discounted the fact that I was actively being abused (while in custody) by a non-sec crewmember.

The only harm I actually did, was throwing a piece of broken glass at an electrified grate (which ended up shocking him) and this occurred after he showed intent of trying to enact some sort of capital punishment on me. As I am talking to SpaceInaba (keep in mind they are watching all of this happen), this engineer grabs materials and builds a metal box around the brig cell that I'm in and leaves me there to die, effectively ending the round for me. There was apparently a photo taken in that round where you can clearly see the walls that are constructed over top the broken out brig windows:
Image
(I vaguely remember him re-opening the wall because I committed suicide, since it was clear SpaceInaba wasn't going to do anything about him ending my round.)


Here are the logs from that round where you can clearly see that I don't harm anyone, only stun:
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... attack.txt
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... /game.html


Why you think you should be unbanned:
The ban says "failed probation terms" and further justifies the ban by directly defying 2 sitting headmins' decisions in saying "shouldn't have been given a probation in the first place".

If stunning a guy and taking his hardsuit off is "bad escalation", then I think the terms of the probation could be considered broken, however, this interpretation of the escalation rules should be tempered with the idea that I never actually harmed anyone to get myself into that situation; I simply tried taking a guy's ID. The rules pretty explicitly state that players are allowed to instigate conflict with other players within reason, and I believe that's all I did. Furthermore, in the 11 days of playing after my probation was granted, I do not remember receiving even a single warning about any such bad escalation or other action on my behalf that would warrant reapplying the original ban. If I had simply not argued with SpaceInaba that round about what the engineer was doing to me, ausops would have no reason to log in 2 hours later and ban me for a round that he wasn't even on for, since I hadn't actually taken anyone out of the round or even come close to breaking a rule, let alone doing something that would violate the terms of my probation.

I do not believe I was ban-baiting the guy, either. All I had hoped to achieve with the ahelp was that the admin would tell him "hey, maybe don't sit here and pointlessly abuse this person you have captive (that is no longer a threat to you whatsoever) and build him into a box to completely take him out of the round when he didn't even harm you."

I was permbanned for "validhunting" and "powergaming" behavior the first time, and on reflection I can absolutely see how someone would arrive at that conclusion given what I did to originally get banned. After I was unbanned I actively tried very hard to avoid situations where I was killing anyone (even people I had very good reasons to believe were antagonists) in an attempt to avoid violating the terms I was given.

The honest truth is that I'm never trying to make anyone else have a bad time. I tried hard to change how I played the game and I wholeheartedly disagree with the grounds on which my ban was reapplied. I haven't tried to play SS13 since this happened because it left a very bad taste in my mouth about how easily my access can be revoked, even if I am trying to be good. /tg/ is clearly the best place to play SS13, and it's been nearly 6 months since this happened. I just want to be able to play again and have a good time. I would be willing to accept very strict probation terms despite the fact that I think it would be unnecessary, given that I demonstrated at least for a short period of time that I am able to follow the rules and terms that are given to me.

I appreciate you taking the time to consider this case. Thank you



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oranges
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Re: [ausops] Brian Hyde - "failed probation terms" re-permban

Unread postby oranges » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:30 am #451376

ausops is gone, I'll ping the headmins
as she says in pain

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oranges
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Re: [ausops] Brian Hyde - "failed probation terms" re-permban

Unread postby oranges » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:26 am #452358

I'll ping them again
as she says in pain

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Nervere
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Re: [ausops] Brian Hyde - "failed probation terms" re-permban

Unread postby Nervere » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:20 pm #452692

Sorry for the delay, this was a pretty busy week for all of us and it took a bit of time to get this looked into and decided.
To start, probation is a failure of a system. It's meant to give people a chance, but the result of it nearly every time it has been used is that someone gets permanently banned for something minor/stupid. That's not a very good way to handle things, in my view. I'm opposed to it enough that I'd never like to see probation used again for bans - it simply does not work. This is pretty relevant to your ban, as you got banned for something relatively insignificant after not having any other warnings in the other days of your probation. We looked into what actually happened during the round that got you re-banned, it seems it was handled pretty poorly. Here's the ahelp logs:
Spoiler:
[2018-05-24 16:14:58.052] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #1: BrianHyde/(Brian Hyde): i have not harmed a single person this entire shift and this guy put me in the brig for 15 minutes, tried to kill me and is now threatening to make me into a borg - heard by 1 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[2018-05-24 16:29:41.465] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: SpaceInaba/(Patchouli Ibukiki)->BrianHyde/(Brian Hyde): logs show you tried to steal his hardsuit
[2018-05-24 16:30:07.529] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: BrianHyde/(Brian Hyde)->SpaceInaba/(Patchouli Ibukiki): he isn't security, why does he get to decide to put me in an unescapable metal box?
[2018-05-24 16:30:35.340] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: BrianHyde/(Brian Hyde)->SpaceInaba/(Patchouli Ibukiki): if he'
[2018-05-24 16:30:41.993] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: SpaceInaba/(Patchouli Ibukiki)->BrianHyde/(Brian Hyde): he's allowed to get creative considering you tried to mug him
[2018-05-24 16:31:17.124] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: BrianHyde/(Brian Hyde)->SpaceInaba/(Patchouli Ibukiki): ok so the next time someone tries to take something off my body i'm going to escalate instantly to killing them, that ok?
[2018-05-24 16:31:33.965] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: BrianHyde/(Brian Hyde)->SpaceInaba/(Patchouli Ibukiki): because that's basically what you're allowing him to do here
[2018-05-24 16:31:59.529] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: SpaceInaba/(Patchouli Ibukiki)->BrianHyde/(Brian Hyde): you are on probation I would advise against "NEXT TIME X DOES Y THAT MEANS I CAN Z RIGHT?!?!?!?!"
[2018-05-24 16:32:56.742] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: BrianHyde/(Brian Hyde)->SpaceInaba/(Patchouli Ibukiki): dude my past actions have nothing to do with the fact that i had half the connected players attempting to subdue me for cuffing one guy and now arbitrarily he decides its ok to take me out of the round
[2018-05-24 16:34:00.695] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: BrianHyde/(Brian Hyde)->SpaceInaba/(Patchouli Ibukiki): this is dumb. i'm disconnecting now


To sum up the situation, you were mad about something that happened ICly where you were the instigator, you ahelped the result of the scenario it believing it to be overescalation, presumably someone thought this was banbaiting and you got your permaban re-applied. This was definitely banbaiting on your part for ahelping after you got dunked, but was it worthy of re-applying the permaban? Certainly not, it's minor enough where that should have been completely out of the question. Again, a problem with the system of probation.

That being said, your behavior from a year ago that lead to you being permabanned in the first place was pretty terrible. I can see why that ban was applied, and I do recall on Sybil myself your behavior being rather unsavory. Even though a year has passed, with rule 0 permabans what we typically require of players is to provide some sort of proof that you've changed through having a server vouch for your character, or something similar to that effect. However, because you had a good period of time where you played without issues (during the probation), a lengthy period has passed, and your re-banning was ultimately because of the flawed system of probation, we're taking a chance here and will be lifting your ban with no terms of probation attached.
I expect to see good things from you, don't disappoint.


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