Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

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Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby D&B » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:39 pm #451032

In ban appeals.

It's getting kinda stupid admins dealing with bans that are up to the Triumvirate can abuse this locking privilege to get their snarky last words in.

If people are peanut posting they can and often do get their posts reported and deleted.

In short some new people aren't mature enough to just lock a thread and need to be sassy, which I think it's a misuse of this ability, and until they learn better interpersonal skills, this should be removed.
Spoiler:
[20:26:02]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Welp. It was just a prank bro isn't a very good excuse when it comes to unprovoked nonantag murder, but since this is your first time doing it and you seem to understand the problem instead of a bannu I'm just going to leave you with a warning. Please PLEASE don't do this again in the future, as funny as crackhead broken bottle memes can be. Alrighty? Do you have any input on this?
[20:26:39]ADMIN: PM: [censored]->[censored admin]: Alright, no problem. I have some input. Fuck my boy pussy.
[20:27:06]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Okay then. Have fun.
[20:31:29]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Excuse me?

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Qbmax32 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:43 pm #451034

i mean hes not wrong
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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby subject217 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:46 pm #451035

locking it to headmins/game masters functionally means that threads would only ever be locked when a headmin decided to mark it as resolved.

i know you can't read the logs, but quite frequently the resolved appeals are managed by game admins, so only letting headmins/absent GMs lock creates more work for them to handle resolved appeals.

if anything, this is something that specific people should be talked to about and not a blanket loss of permissions for all admins.

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:49 pm #451037

Which thread prompted this
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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Lazengann » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:50 pm #451040

wrong forum section pal the site and forums board is a bit north

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby D&B » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:58 pm #451042

Lazengann wrote:wrong forum section pal the site and forums board is a bit north


"...Over the next few weeks I'm going to be unifying the forum administration with the game administration team.

Meaning in game admins will have limited mod powers in the on topic sections, game masters will have global mod powers, and headmins will be forum admins..."


This is the talk-center for admin related policy as well (as far as I can tell) and thus belongs here.

Furthermore this isn't about the forums entirely, it's more about the abuse and misuse of this particular privilege by administrators regarding in game bans.
Spoiler:
[20:26:02]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Welp. It was just a prank bro isn't a very good excuse when it comes to unprovoked nonantag murder, but since this is your first time doing it and you seem to understand the problem instead of a bannu I'm just going to leave you with a warning. Please PLEASE don't do this again in the future, as funny as crackhead broken bottle memes can be. Alrighty? Do you have any input on this?
[20:26:39]ADMIN: PM: [censored]->[censored admin]: Alright, no problem. I have some input. Fuck my boy pussy.
[20:27:06]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Okay then. Have fun.
[20:31:29]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Excuse me?

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lying little shit with your bullshit stat
fuck you

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Cobby » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:59 pm #451043

Admins who use their powers abusively to get the last 2 cents in before closing it should be feedbacked and/or complained about to the headmins since it can't be "officially" complainted in the subsection. I don't think the power needs to be revoked from admins since a thread might warrant locking.
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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:51 am #451057

PKPenguin321 wrote:Which thread prompted this

This viewtopic.php?f=7&t=20032

I strongly disagree with locking threads that have actual discussion: The reason ban appeals are in a public section are so players with experience and knowledge of the rules can add to the discussion rather than limiting to only admins. Locking a thread with discussion, especially after putting in the last word, is a major dick move.

Locking and moving topics in FNR is given to admins so they can resolve their ban appeals without requiring the three headmins or global mods to intervene on every single thread. It's not so you can lock a topic when too many people who disagree with you chime in.
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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby John_Oxford » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:22 am #451065

I think the sole purpose of ban appeals being viewable by the players is so everyone can say "wow admin that's fucking stupid why did you do that"

or "wow admin you just fucking abused him and all your admin friends are agreeing with you, lets as a player base call you all fucking stupid"

or more rarely "lol wow dude you're a dumbass for releasing the singularity as a non-antag enjoy your ban"

tasteful posting pointing out the obvious to represent public opinion isn't peanut posting, it's community policing.
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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby lmwevil » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:44 am #451070

tbh

>limiting all admins who abuse permissions
>literally limiting the most trusted people on the server
>implicit that you can't trust your staff

just talk to the people who use it wrong, if they can't use their tools right why are they an admin

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby subject217 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:34 am #451077

"...Over the next few weeks I'm going to be unifying the forum administration with the game administration team.

Meaning in game admins will have limited mod powers in the on topic sections, game masters will have global mod powers, and headmins will be forum admins..."


This never happened. All that happened is that people like Saegrimr lost their mod powers.

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby somerandomguy » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:45 am #451078

John_Oxford wrote:I think the sole purpose of ban appeals being viewable by the players is so everyone can say "wow admin that's fucking stupid why did you do that"

or "wow admin you just fucking abused him and all your admin friends are agreeing with you, lets as a player base call you all fucking stupid"

or more rarely "lol wow dude you're a dumbass for releasing the singularity as a non-antag enjoy your ban"

tasteful posting pointing out the obvious to represent public opinion isn't peanut posting, it's community policing.

>more rarely

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Ayy Lemoh » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:03 am #451082

Cobby wrote:Admins who use their powers abusively to get the last 2 cents in before closing it should be feedbacked and/or complained about to the headmins

The ideal thing to do is tell the headmins AND the offending admin.

Some headmins don't like telling people what they did wrong until it's too late. This defeats the purpose of making them stop what they're doing in that case. This is my personal experience, though.

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Grazyn » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:31 am #451125

subject217 wrote:locking it to headmins/game masters functionally means that threads would only ever be locked when a headmin decided to mark it as resolved.

This definitely should be the case for policy threads tbqh

Otherwise admins will just keep spamming "dumb policy thread, lock it" until it's locked and the policy stays unresolved and resurfaces later

Case in point, the "ban friendly antags" policy thread which was closed without being resolved because admins were spamming it

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Arianya » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:50 am #451149

Grazyn wrote:
subject217 wrote:locking it to headmins/game masters functionally means that threads would only ever be locked when a headmin decided to mark it as resolved.

This definitely should be the case for policy threads tbqh


This is already the case for policy threads (well, game masters can't do it but yeah), same for admin complaints. You can see who has mod privileges by the "Moderator:" field underneath the forum heading.

Regardless, this thread does technically belong in Site and Wiki because Head Admins don't have control over what group gets moderator privileges where, just who is in the group. That said, MSO would most likely look to our point of view for this kind of request.

At this time I (personally) have no interest in restricting these permissions. Ban Appeals is not your debate and discussion forum for you to give your view of a ban, and I'm not going to remove permissions from an administrator for locking a thread that is veering into peanut post central.

If you want to discuss policy, there is Policy Discussion. If you want to discuss your particular grievance with a past ban, you can open a thread in General Chat/NTR Hut.

If you genuinely believe that an administrator has abused their forum privileges, you're welcome to forum PM the head admins about it with a complaint, though if you PM because "I wanted to peanut post in a ban appeal and the mean admin wouldn't let me" I'm going to laugh at you.

Please note that PKP is a global moderator, and so while he can still be complained about his admin-related mod actions, the headmins don't oversee his global mod actions and you would need to go to MSO if you had concerns about his actions as a global mod (i.e. deleting your General Discussion thread)
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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Grazyn » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:58 am #451150

Arianya wrote:
Grazyn wrote:
subject217 wrote:locking it to headmins/game masters functionally means that threads would only ever be locked when a headmin decided to mark it as resolved.

This definitely should be the case for policy threads tbqh


This is already the case for policy threads (well, game masters can't do it but yeah), same for admin complaints. You can see who has mod privileges by the "Moderator:" field underneath the forum heading.

Good to know, because the "friendly antag" thread was locked without a headmin marking it as resolved, you may want to have a look at that

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Arianya » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:59 am #451151

Grazyn wrote:
Arianya wrote:
Grazyn wrote:
subject217 wrote:locking it to headmins/game masters functionally means that threads would only ever be locked when a headmin decided to mark it as resolved.

This definitely should be the case for policy threads tbqh


This is already the case for policy threads (well, game masters can't do it but yeah), same for admin complaints. You can see who has mod privileges by the "Moderator:" field underneath the forum heading.

Good to know, because the "friendly antag" thread was locked without a headmin marking it as resolved, you may want to have a look at that

People can close the threads they themselves opened, regardless of moderator position.
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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby segundoblz » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:44 am #451155

Alright guys I'm locking this thread now





but seriously common folk (us) should be able to report admins who lock threads while active AND productive discussion is still going on
so admin team be like >strike 9999999999 now you're out

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Lazengann » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:11 am #451165

you can already do that

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Grazyn » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:41 am #451173

Arianya wrote:
Grazyn wrote:
Arianya wrote:
Grazyn wrote:
subject217 wrote:locking it to headmins/game masters functionally means that threads would only ever be locked when a headmin decided to mark it as resolved.

This definitely should be the case for policy threads tbqh


This is already the case for policy threads (well, game masters can't do it but yeah), same for admin complaints. You can see who has mod privileges by the "Moderator:" field underneath the forum heading.

Good to know, because the "friendly antag" thread was locked without a headmin marking it as resolved, you may want to have a look at that

People can close the threads they themselves opened, regardless of moderator position.

I can feel something wrong with that, especially if the OP is an admin. Example, admin opens a policy thread, raising a legitimate issue (let's say, it's something that can get you banned/warned or not depending on the admin). OP is on the "we should ban for it" team. People discuss it, but the discussion doesn't seem to be going where the OP wants (e.g. majority of admins against banning), so he locks it. Now headmins don't have to give a ruling on the issue and the OP/admin can keep banning/noting/harassing people for it.

I think that once the discussion gets going and it becomes clear that the issue exists and is worth resolving, headmins should still consider giving a ruling about it regardless of OP locking the thread.

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Nilons » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:20 pm #451175

If the problem is too many peanut posts then I really can't see why locking thread is a fair solution, preventing all players from posting whether they're allowed to or not because of some players violating peanut policy is stupid.

lmwevil wrote:tbh

>limiting all admins who abuse permissions
>literally limiting the most trusted people on the server
>implicit that you can't trust your staff

just talk to the people who use it wrong, if they can't use their tools right why are they an admin


But there's no actual way to complain officially outside of feedback which is not actionable and if the headmins were going to do this without prompting they would have already.
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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Lazengann » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:37 pm #451180

Nilons wrote:But there's no actual way to complain officially outside of feedback

and policy threads apparently

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Arianya » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:01 pm #451197

Nilons wrote:But there's no actual way to complain officially outside of feedback which is not actionable and if the headmins were going to do this without prompting they would have already.


As I specified you're welcome to PM the headmins with these complaints.
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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Nilons » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:04 pm #451200

Arianya wrote:
Nilons wrote:But there's no actual way to complain officially outside of feedback which is not actionable and if the headmins were going to do this without prompting they would have already.


As I specified you're welcome to PM the headmins with these complaints.

Then please lay out your/other headmins criteria for what constitutes abuse of thread locking powers or some kind of guideline so that players know when to complain and admins know where to stop
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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Lazengann » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:08 pm #451202

just complain any time you feel they did it wrong, if they punished for complaining too much I would've been kicked out months ago

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Nilons » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:11 pm #451204

Lazengann wrote:just complain any time you feel they did it wrong, if they punished for complaining too much I would've been kicked out months ago

You shouldn't have to guess when an admin is abusing their power and admins should be trusted enough not to toe a hard line rule
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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby lmwevil » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:04 pm #451230

Nilons wrote:You shouldn't have to guess when an admin is abusing their power and admins should be trusted enough not to toe a hard line rule



admins are trusted enough to not toe a hard line rule, it's why they are still admins and not banned

>have to guess when an admin is abusing their power
the headmins look at the forums so frequently that if they disagreed with the locking of a ban appeal thread because the admin was salty it'd be unlocked within the day
power abuse is really obvious and doesn't need hardline rules to see, it's simply if they act in bad faith

EDIT: nilons is saying 'please give me a bingo sheet to complain on deadminning admins who lock my appeals' - you'd be hardpressed to codify a proper ruleset that could apply to the very wide scale of appeals we have to deal with while not having players scream 'BAN POST HASTE HE TICKED BOX 523'.

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Nilons » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:09 pm #451231

lmwevil wrote:
Nilons wrote:You shouldn't have to guess when an admin is abusing their power and admins should be trusted enough not to toe a hard line rule



admins are trusted enough to not toe a hard line rule, it's why they are still admins and not banned

>have to guess when an admin is abusing their power
the headmins look at the forums so frequently that if they disagreed with the locking of a ban appeal thread because the admin was salty it'd be unlocked within the day
power abuse is really obvious and doesn't need hardline rules to see, it's simply if they act in bad faith

Yeah that would happen if they didn't already say they don't plan to and that if you have a problem with a thread being locked to pm them.

If the ban appeals aren't open to public discussion under the peanut policy then pull the trigger and outright ban nongamemasters or headmins from posting but this stuff where admins can't post unless it's relevant/under the peanut policy but have free reign to stop everyone from talking despite it being within the rules is at best a half measure
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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby oranges » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:07 pm #451327

The problem isn't that they're lockable by admins

it's that some admins leave replies and then lock the thread that have snarky tone or comments that need responses.

If you're going to lock a thread leave only the following
Locking to prevent this thread spiralling out of control

DOn't put your own opinion in, don't respond to things people are going to do.

Just add the proviso that if you respond in detail to the thread you lose your ability to lock it.
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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Darkgenerallord » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:42 am #451351

I'll be real I wanted to post in the Buggy appeal but it was locked and thus I had to actually just PM people about ban information

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby NikNakFlak » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:03 am #451381

itt repukan complains about everyone when its literally just specific people who have a problem

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Rustledjimm » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:15 pm #451408

Game Admins should still be able to lock threads however the times they do so should really be limited to resolving their own appeals and when a thread ha clearly turned into a shitshow.
So uhh, I'm an admin. Please leave feedback!

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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Karp » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:04 am #451468

another rerun of "One person does something retarded and punishable so everyone has to be punished"

Change the channel please
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Re: Only Headmins/Gamemasters should be able to lock threads

Unread postby Not-Dorsidarf » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:58 pm #451517

Karp wrote:another rerun of "One person does something retarded and punishable so everyone has to be punished"

Change the channel please


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