The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

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The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:57 am #452738

The vote to remove catgirls has concluded, you can see the results here: https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltally.php?id=204
The results haven't been filtered yet. So far, replacing catgirls with etherals has won by about 20 votes.
Regardless of the ultimate results, here are some questions for the poll staff, oranges.

Why does the poll that you made hold that it's necessary to remove felinids in order to add etherals?
Is there some reason why a race needs to be removed in order for etherals to be added? If this is a congestion issue, why is it that felinids (the most popular nonhuman race) would be removed to make room when you could instead remove, for instance, flypeople?
Was the inclusion of the "Remove felinids and add <x> enticing new race" poll options an attempt to persuade the voters to vote to remove felinids? If not, what was your specific motivation in making these poll options?
How are etherals or IPCs relevant to this poll's stated premise, which was to gauge whether or not felinids belong in the game? Do you believe that motivating the voters with the promise of other races in any way taints the poll?

I'm looking forward to these answers. Thanks.



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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:00 am #452740

There was a lot of discussion in adminbus before this poll was ran, didn't really pay much attention to it (mostly skimmed it) but the extra options were included to provide compromises, specifics, details, and options rather than a binary YES/NO poll. Because it is an IRV poll, there is no real "adding poll options in an attempt to persuade the voters to vote [some other way]." IRV polls don't really work that way, since no matter what your order is you will still end up voting for most of the options in a sense. If you wanted to remove catgirls and placed "replace with X" at the top instead of "remove outright," you're still voting for "remove outright," it's just not your first pick. You can (and in fact HAVE TO) vote for multiple options is kind of what I'm getting at, so there's not even a concept of "add another option to get people to vote a different way."
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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:04 am #452742

Oh, and further, if you're curious why the compromises needed to be listed:

In a binary YES/NO poll to remove catgirls, if you wanted to restrict catgirls to admin only, which would you vote for? If you vote yes, catgirls get removed from the code completely and you don't even get a say. If you vote no, catgirls remain unchanged and you don't get a say in that case, either. The same goes for pretty much every compromise (for example, the compromise to remove catgirls but keep cat ears/tails as a hat item in the game was an IRV poll option that I know at least a few people supported) regardless of what "side" they lean towards, and because it's an IRV poll you can vote for a compromise without compromising your "main" vote of picking yes or no since you can (and must) order every option on the poll.
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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:06 am #452743

If you want ethereals to be added but want cattegrilles to stay, you're compromising your vote, PKP.
Last edited by CosmicScientist on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:07 am #452744

PKPenguin321 wrote:the extra options were included to provide compromises, specifics, details, and options rather than a binary YES/NO poll.

Okay. Makes sense.

Because it is an IRV poll, there is no real "adding poll options in an attempt to persuade the voters to vote [some other way]." IRV polls don't really work that way, since no matter what your order is you will still end up voting for most of the options in a sense.


This is simply wrong. Of course you can taint an IRV poll, it isn't magical. If I make an IRV poll that has the option, "Remove felinids and I give you $100,000,000" people will obviously vote for that option because they want the $100,000,000, not because they want felinids gone. Oranges made a poll that says "Remove felinids and I add a new never before seen race." That option won because people want the new race. It completely taints the poll. It makes the poll about "Do you want etherals?" and not "Do you want felinids to stay?"

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby oranges » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:09 am #452745

someone is mad they lost
as she says in pain

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:10 am #452746

oranges wrote:someone is mad they lost

Why have you consistently avoided the questions put forth by this thread? Whenever someone talks to you about the poll you are happy to answer other questions. When the topic of the "Remove catgirls and add this new race" bribery comes up, you instantly go quiet or try to sabotage the conversation (like you're doing now.)

Does it just not matter to you? Are you banking on a hope that the busy host will ignore what you've done with the poll and allow you to force your personal will because he doesn't want to bother with it any more?

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby somerandomguy » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:18 am #452747

This does smell like salt but that is a good question - why did we need to have a "swap for ethereal" option when there was no issue with ethereals (and it seemed like it would get merged anyway)? "Swap for IPCs" was probably fine though, since IPCs did have some issues (although an additional "keep catpeople, add IPCs" would be best)

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby oranges » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:22 am #452750

yeah that sounds about right
as she says in pain

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:24 am #452751

Can we stop allowing people responsible for the game to answer like this? I don't think someone who decides for everyone else how the game will work should be making a joke out of every attempt to communicate with him, hold him accountable for wrongful actions, etc.

Oranges, you made a poll that has some serious problems. You are now being politely confronted about those problems, and you should be answering seriously if you're acting with good will.
Last edited by afelinidisfinetoo on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby oranges » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:25 am #452753

It's my game, not yours
as she says in pain

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:31 am #452755

I am not going to allow you to drag the the level of discussion in the thread down so that it gets locked and you don't have to answer anything. Just stop posting if you're going to keep avoiding the issue.

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby somerandomguy » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:31 am #452756

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:Can we stop allowing people responsible for the game to answer like this? I don't think someone who decides for everyone else how the game will work should be making a joke out of every attempt to communicate with him, hold him accountable for wrongful actions, etc.

Oranges, you made a poll that has some serious problems. You are now being politely confronted about those problems, and you should be answering seriously if you're acting with good will.

Talk to the headmins, expecting a serious reply out of oranges when he doesn't want to be serious is like expecting it to snow when it's the middle of summer.

Non-edit:
afelinidisfinetoo wrote:Oranges, I am not going to allow you to drag the the level of discussion in the thread down so that it gets locked and you don't have to answer anything. Just stop posting if you're going to keep avoiding the issue.

See above

PostThis post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:34 pm.
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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:32 am #452759

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:Can we stop allowing people responsible for the game to answer like this? I don't think someone who decides for everyone else how the game will work should be making a joke out of every attempt to communicate with him, hold him accountable for wrongful actions, etc.

Oranges, you made a poll that has some serious problems. You are now being politely confronted about those problems, and you should be answering seriously if you're acting with good will.


they do it for free

u play it 4 free

I dont know what anyone here expected when they hear free. But I wouldn't expect anything

Edit: As an analogy imagine if I got free bagged milk. Why would I get free bagged milk. Unless it was expired!

Well that'd still be a pretty alright deal. Expired milk can make something, I think. So all in all. You get expired bag milk.

You can turn the milk into gold, or you can't and you vomit. You still get the expired free milk though
Last edited by Shadowflame909 on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:33 am #452762

somerandomguy wrote:...

This behavior shouldn't be accepted. It is super obvious that he's doing this because he doesn't want to answer (because there isn't a good answer.) He isn't just feeling goofy.

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby oranges » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:34 am #452763

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:I am not going to allow you to drag the the level of discussion in the thread down so that it gets locked and you don't have to answer anything. Just stop posting if you're going to keep avoiding the issue.

until you stop hiding behind your SPA account why would anyone take you seriously?
as she says in pain

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:36 am #452764

oranges wrote:
afelinidisfinetoo wrote:I am not going to allow you to drag the the level of discussion in the thread down so that it gets locked and you don't have to answer anything. Just stop posting if you're going to keep avoiding the issue.

until you stop hiding behind your SPA account why would anyone take you seriously?

This isn't an alt account. Like I said, I'm a returning player lured back by the existence of catgirls in SS13.
I'm pretty sure my last BYOND account was named something like "grieferkiller24" or similar.

This thread is not about me, it's about you. Could you answer the questions in the OP, please?

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby Shezza » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:36 am #452765

oranges wrote:
afelinidisfinetoo wrote:I am not going to allow you to drag the the level of discussion in the thread down so that it gets locked and you don't have to answer anything. Just stop posting if you're going to keep avoiding the issue.

until you stop hiding behind your SPA account why would anyone take you seriously?

Wasn't it confirmed by multiple admins that they're not an alt?
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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:37 am #452766

No way cat girls are going away anyways. That's just nigh unlikely. They may be a meme race, but they're the most popular meme race that's most prevalent in coders and admins.

Is such a thing even possible felind?

I wouldn't sweat it. Once you do sweat it and then it turns out "woops jk" The only one who loses is you. Not the epic prankster

PostThis post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:35 pm.
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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby somerandomguy » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:38 am #452768

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:
somerandomguy wrote:...

This behavior shouldn't be accepted. It is super obvious that he's doing this because he doesn't want to answer (because there isn't a good answer.) He isn't just feeling goofy.

This is oranges, he's almost always like this
Also, it's oranges

Edit:
>23 replies in ~30 minutes
>involves catpeople
>salt
>accusations of corruption
>oranges evading questions
I smell a new drama thread brewing
Last edited by somerandomguy on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:40 am #452769

Steelpoint wrote:Catpeople wise, we just need to wait for the filtering to be finished.


Whether or not catgirls win the vote is irrelevant to this thread. Even if they win the vote, oranges still made a poll that is slanted against them. Why did he do that, and will more of this kind of thing happen?

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:42 am #452771

This thread is not about move speed, it's about the legitimacy of the catgirl poll. Please stay on topic.

PostThis post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:35 pm.
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PostThis post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:35 pm.
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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:45 am #452777

After raging over github about nerfs and balances. I've realized a crucial fact. No matter what gets removed or nerfed to the point of uselessness. Or whatever weird item you personally disagree with gets added. The game as a whole statically, doesn't really change.

It aint worth writing an essay about my friend. I'm telling you this, as a person who has done what you are doing felind. In two years, this entire argument will seem a bit silly.

I also don't think cat girls will be gone. I hope they get some racial changes to make them different from humans with cat ears and tails though.

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:45 am #452778

Steelpoint wrote:I have no reason to believe the Catperson poll is illegitimate considering the efficacy of the MSO and other support systems behind the poll.


MSO does not have the magical ability to discern between people who voted for the etherals option because they wanted etherals (bad) or because they wanted felinids gone (good). MSO being involved in the filtering process is irrelevant. The poll is irreversibly tainted by the inclusion of the "Remove felinids and add <x> enticing new race" options (without a "Keep felinids and add <x> enticing new race" option)

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby somerandomguy » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:47 am #452779

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:I have no reason to believe the Catperson poll is illegitimate considering the efficacy of the MSO and other support systems behind the poll.


MSO does not have the magical ability to discern between people who voted for the etherals option because they wanted etherals (bad) or because they wanted felinids gone (good). MSO being involved in the filtering process is irrelevant. The poll is irreversibly tainted by the inclusion of the "Remove felinids and add <x> enticing new race" options.

What if they wanted ethereals but didn't give a shit about cats
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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:48 am #452781

somerandomguy wrote:What if they wanted ethereals but didn't give a shit about cats


Yes, this is a great example of how the poll is tainted. Voters who are totally ambivalent about felinids are enticed to vote for their removal, if they separately want etherals added. These posters would have abstained from the poll or voted neutrally if it was not for the options that this thread talks about. Oranges, the thread is asking you whether the poll was tainted by negligence or by your personal desire for the result. The longer you go on avoiding these questions the further people will gravitate towards thinking you rigged it on purpose.
Last edited by afelinidisfinetoo on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:50 am #452782

oranges wrote:
somerandomguy wrote:Maybe we should've had a "remove catpeople and lower movespeed" option

new poll coming soon


Aw. cmon. I haven't really been keeping up with the thread in all honesty other then skimming but don't lower movespeed!

It won't effect the game as a whole. But if we get paradise tier movespeed. Then paradise becomes a slightly better server.

They still got the slings! Movespeed might be one of the only things we got over them.

Also a whole lot of genetic powers

And to relate to cat-girls and voting and what not. I bet one of my unused plushie voucher meme notes that cat-girls will stay in some form. You might not be able to wear my armor hats for them. But they'll still be here.

Lastly, if we're also talking about etherals. Can someone tell me how they react to tasers. Like if I stun-baton/taser them enough will that make them fat and lower there movespeed? But otherwise they're immune to stuns? Imagine that. Tasers make you fat and incredibly slow, but you're otherwise immune to getting knocked to the ground by stuns

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:52 am #452783

Could a forum mod please delete every post that mentions move speed? Oranges is attempting to drown out the issue, this is not relevant to the thread. Thanks.

PostThis post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:37 pm.
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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:57 am #452785

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:Could a forum mod please delete every post that mentions move speed? Oranges is attempting to drown out the issue, this is not relevant to the thread. Thanks.


Yeah man. I'm just a bored lonely dude looking for some form of my genetically required social interaction lest I go insane.

I harbor no hate to any admin that banishes all my comments to the shadowrealm. They're just making the place better by cleaning out the peanuts.

Also, I think the reason this conversation doesn't appear to be going anywhere and is more or less a mudslinging fight is because there's a hint of salt in the posts.

Let's try empathizing with ideas and accepting and taking constructive criticism. Eh?

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby somerandomguy » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:58 am #452786

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:
somerandomguy wrote:What if they wanted ethereals but didn't give a shit about cats


Yes, this is a great example of how the poll is tainted. Voters who are totally ambivalent about felinids are enticed to vote for their removal, if they separately want etherals added. These posters would have abstained from the poll or voted neutrally if it was not for the options that this thread talks about. Oranges, the thread is asking you whether the poll was tainted by negligence or by your personal desire for the result. The longer you go on avoiding these questions the further people will gravitate towards thinking you rigged it on purpose.

No, it's just asking why
Asking if it was one of two outcomes that both favor you is really really stupid, the only answer you'll get is "no"
Also for the last time, it's oranges

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:Could a forum mod please delete every post that mentions move speed? Oranges is attempting to drown out the issue, this is not relevant to the thread. Thanks.

Just lock the thread, it's too salty and getting off-topic :^)
Also >implying other people's accounts are oranges' alts

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:59 am #452787

Steelpoint wrote:Make a decision from this poll instead of making us go through another two weeks of voting because some people disagree with the wording.


This is not an issue with the wording of the poll. The problem is that the poll is slanted toward removing felinids because it motivates the voter with the promise of adding a brand new race if felinids are removed. If we are going to decide the issue based on this tainted poll, it should be a default win for felinids remaining because the poll is slanted against them, and because all of the previous (three?) polls, which were not tainted in this way, showed a win for keeping felinids.

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:01 am #452788

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Make a decision from this poll instead of making us go through another two weeks of voting because some people disagree with the wording.


This is not an issue with the wording of the poll. The problem is that the poll is slanted toward removing felinids because it motivates the voter with the promise of adding a brand new race if felinids are removed. If we are going to decide the issue based on this tainted poll, it should be a default win for felinids remaining because the poll is slanted against them, and because all of the previous (three?) polls, which were not tainted in this way, showed a win for keeping felinids.


How would you suggest a equally biased in both directions poll then? Got any ideas for felind biased poll options that you think would even out the score?

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby somerandomguy » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:02 am #452790

Actually just unironically put the thread in the hut or salt reserves, where it deserves to go

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Make a decision from this poll instead of making us go through another two weeks of voting because some people disagree with the wording.


This is not an issue with the wording of the poll. The problem is that the poll is slanted toward removing felinids because it motivates the voter with the promise of adding a brand new race if felinids are removed. If we are going to decide the issue based on this tainted poll, it should be a default win for felinids remaining because the poll is slanted against them, and because all of the previous (three?) polls, which were not tainted in this way, showed a win for keeping felinids.

>>>>>>>>default win for cats
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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:04 am #452791

Shadowflame909 wrote:Got any ideas for felind biased poll options that you think would even out the score?


The only poll that can be completely free of external variables is a poll that says "Should felinids remain in the game?" and has the options "Yes" and "No". Apparently there were already three of these polls, and they all resulted in "Yes" after filtering.
If you're asking what would have been the easiest way to make this poll less biased, it would be to include "Keep felinids and add etherals" and "Keep felinids and add IPCs" options, like someone said near the beginning of the thread.

Forum mods, please purge the thread of off-topic posts and do not allow oranges and his friends to deliberately shit up a thread he doesn't want to answer to.
Last edited by afelinidisfinetoo on Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby oranges » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:04 am #452793

I and the headmins have actually have come up with a solution on the basis that filtering still leaves the etherals in the winning position, we're just waiting for MSO to do the filtering to confirm the result to announce it.
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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby NoxVS » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:06 am #452794

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Make a decision from this poll instead of making us go through another two weeks of voting because some people disagree with the wording.


This is not an issue with the wording of the poll. The problem is that the poll is slanted toward removing felinids because it motivates the voter with the promise of adding a brand new race if felinids are removed. If we are going to decide the issue based on this tainted poll, it should be a default win for felinids remaining because the poll is slanted against them, and because all of the previous (three?) polls, which were not tainted in this way, showed a win for keeping felinids.


Damn Oranges, all you had to do was make a poll biased for catpeople so you could give a default win to removing them. I had no clue it was this easy.

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:06 am #452795

oranges wrote:I and the headmins have actually have come up with a solution on the basis that filtering still leaves the etherals in the winning position, we're just waiting for MSO to do the filtering to confirm the result to announce it.


Since you cannot announce it now, could you instead answer the questions in the OP?

PostThis post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:38 pm.
Reason: Off topic

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Re: The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

Unread postby wesoda25 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:11 am #452797

I’m pretty anti-cat, but I have to admit the poll was wonky. I knew that my best bet of getting cats removed was to vote for ethereals, which is why it was my number one vote. I really couldn’t care less if we get more reference species added, although I’m not against the idea of only human station (ohhhh but wesoda plasmamen are cooooooooollllll - just add a combustible turtle and be done with it).

That being said, a varied poll is a better choice than the binary one we had formally, it was far too generalized. I think two separate polls should have been run, one with varying levels of cat removal (with options briefly detailing other species addition) and the other to decide which species would replace cats in the event they lost the poll. Although, there would be merit in running the replacement poll first, so as to make sure the vote was sound.
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